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What happened to all of the doom and gloom economic threads?

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Don't just feel it in your bones?



We've turned more Left corners than NASCAR!

Come on 12K!

Let's hope that for a change it doesn't get CAFEd down to 11K!
 
It is not good for our country when a president of the United States singles out one group and tries to get the public to blame that group for the terrible problems facing us. Democrats and Republicans don't agree on much politically. These days, we can't even agree on the basic proposition that scapegoating is destructive. Scapegoating tears a country apart. It distracts us with false solutions when we are facing an economic emergency and have no time to waste. And it raises the specter of violence -- actual physical violence, with businesses destroyed and people hurt and killed. Yet Democrats applaud President Obama's scapegoating rhetoric.

On a recent visit to the East Coast, I was told by dear friends and relatives who know I'm a Tea Party Republican that Republicans are selfish (three times), moronic (four times), crazy (once), and racist (twice). I witnessed friends and family scared about lost jobs, failing businesses, losing their homes, their retirement money, friends with college grads who can't get a job and are living at home. Every day of my visit, I witnessed these people who are so dear to me rant on and on, faces contorted with angry enthusiasm, against "The Rich."

What if instead of "The Rich," we called them the Jews, or the lawyers, or the bourgeoisie? Why is it so comfortable to blame one group of citizens for our enormous and complex problems when we call them The Rich? Scapegoating is evil, whatever the group targeted. This is a form of hate-mongering Republicans can't stop -- Democrats have to speak out and stop it.

It is not politics as usual. It has never existed in our lifetimes in America. Why are Democrats cheering the president on instead of saying, no, this is not okay, even if it plays well in the polls? We are not going to scapegoat a class of people for the country's problems. We don't target anger on groups of fellow citizens in America.
Here is another reason why Democrats should care. A leader scapegoats for one purpose: to deflect public attention away from how the public is being screwed by said leader. Our federal government is spending at a rate the country cannot afford. Obama wants his followers to think we can afford it, if only the top 1% of earners would give a little bit more. This is a lie. It may be a comfortable lie for Democrats, but it is one that none of us can afford to believe.
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Read more: http://www.americanthinker.com/2011/12/democrats_follow_obama_down_the_low_road.html#ixzz1gW6gTIKg
 
Heroic work, defending the rich. Obviously they can't look out for themselves, struggling as they are to be heard because all the media outlets are owned by poor folk.

I see the Gini coefficient - the measure of income inequality - has been steadily rising in the USA (and in my own country the UK) for about 30 years. The rich are steadily getting richer relative to the poor. The USA is the most unequal of the 'oecd countries'.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gini_coefficient

Patrick
 
patrick1 said:
Heroic work, defending the rich. Obviously they can't look out for themselves, struggling as they are to be heard because all the media outlets are owned by poor folk.

I see the Gini coefficient - the measure of income inequality - has been steadily rising in the USA (and in my own country the UK) for about 30 years. The rich are steadily getting richer relative to the poor. The USA is the most unequal of the 'oecd countries'.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gini_coefficient

Patrick
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Well... that's simply because the poor here are lazier than the poor in other places. [/sarcasm]
 
Stocks fall as Europe's debt crisis flares up
The euro falls to an 11-month low against the dollar. Italian government bond yields jump. The Fed disappoints Wall Street by not announcing plans to boost the economy.


chrtsrv.dll
 
patrick1 said:
Heroic work, defending the rich. Obviously they can't look out for themselves, struggling as they are to be heard because all the media outlets are owned by poor folk.

I see the Gini coefficient - the measure of income inequality - has been steadily rising in the USA (and in my own country the UK) for about 30 years. The rich are steadily getting richer relative to the poor. The USA is the most unequal of the 'oecd countries'.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gini_coefficient

Patrick
Click to expand...

Gini isn't a one-size-fits-all calculation. Here in the U.S., it is skewed by an aging population and substantial immigration issues. While I expect the former also impacts the U.K., the latter is more of an issue for us than it is you.
 
A prophesy for London, New York or Berlin in 2012? Not exactly. It is a description of Vienna in 1873. In that year, in one of the great crashes of all time, the Austrian markets triggered collapses across Europe, swiftly followed by an equally spectacular collapse in New York. It was the start of what economic historians call the Long Depression, a prolonged period of volatility, unemployment and slumps that lasted an epic 23 years, only coming to an end in 1896.

I have been researching that episode for my new e-book ”The Long Depression: The Slump of 2008 to 2031.” The parallels with our own time are fascinating. German unification, and the adoption of the gold standard, had led to a boom in that country, and cheap German money had flooded Europe. Greece had just joined the Latin Currency Union, an ill-fated attempt to merge currencies across Europe. Banking had been deregulated, which was partly why so much German money was invested on the Vienna bourse. The telegraph created instant communications, allowing the European crash to spread to New York. The U.S. was industrializing, transforming the global economy as much as China has transformed the present era’s economy in the past decade.

All those factors came together to create an almighty bubble, followed by an even worse crash. The slump that followed — although it is hard to measure these things precisely — lasted more than two decades. If the slump following the crash of 2008 is anything like that one, then this one is going to last until 2031.

True, historical parallels are never precise. We won’t replay the Long Depression of 1873 to 1896 exactly, nor will this slump necessarily last as long. It is, however, a far more instructive episode than the Great Depression of the 1930s. And there are five key lessons we should learn from it.

First, depressions can last a very long time, and when their origins are in a debt bubble they should be measured in decades not years. For a century or more, depressions have been relatively short, sharp episodes. They are like having a tooth pulled, rather than a chronic sickness — painful, but over quite quickly. But it doesn’t have to be that way. In the U.K., for example, this is already the longest recession since records began — in the sense that output is still below its 2008 peak. It is more enduring than the depression of the 1930s. That is true of many other countries, as well. If, as seems likely, Europe, and perhaps the U.S., slips back into recession in 2012, it will be clear to everyone we are witnessing something far longer than the conventional economic textbooks allow for.

Second, this depression is structural. The Long Depression of the 19th century had its roots in financial speculation, technological change, and the arrival of a massive new player in the global economy. Our current depression likewise has its roots in three huge crises coming together at the same time. We have a debt bubble that had been building up over three decade and which burst spectacularly in 2008. The dollar is in long-term decline as a reserve currency, and as the anchor for the global monetary system, but there is still not much sign of what will replace it. And in the euro, the biggest single economic bloc has created the most dysfunctional monetary system in human history, threatening financial collapses on an unprecedented scale. Think of it as the world economy’s suffering a heart attack, then a stroke, then getting picked up by an ambulance that crashes on the way to the hospital — it is hardly surprising the patient isn’t in good shape.

Three, it’s uneven. The Long Depression of the 19th century was a sustained period of lower growth compared with what came before and what came afterward. Germany, for example, grew 4.3% annually between 1850 and 1873 and then at 4.1% between 1896 and 1913. But in the Long Depression years, it only managed a growth rate of just over 2% a year. It was similar in other countries. The markets remained volatile, with repeated booms and busts, regularly collapsing back into recession. They did grow occasionally, just as Japan has sometimes grown in what is now its second decade of slump. But the growth is never sustained.

Four, good things are still happening. It isn’t all doom and gloom. In the Long Depression, some countries were largely unscathed. New technologies and industries were being created. The telephone was invented, and the foundations of new industries based on the petrol engine and electricity were put into place. The people who got it right still made huge fortunes, and the workers in the right industries prospered. Overall, however, times were hard. And you had to position yourself carefully.

Five, it won’t be fixed easily. The parallel with the 1930s is dangerous, because it has convinced bankers and policy makers that if you can just pump up demand, everything will be OK. It won’t.
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Matthew Lynn
http://www.marketwatch.com/story/this-slump-wont-end-until-2031-2011-12-14
 
'Dismal' prospects: 1 in 2 Americans are now poor or low income

WASHINGTON - Squeezed by rising living costs, a record number of Americans — nearly 1 in 2 — have fallen into poverty or are scraping by on earnings that classify them as low income.

The latest census data depict a middle class that's shrinking as unemployment stays high and the government's safety net frays. The new numbers follow years of stagnating wages for the middle class that have hurt millions of workers and families.

http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2...s-1-in-2-americans-are-now-poor-or-low-income

it could be worse. :cool:
 
Sean Renaud said:
And would be if Republicans got their way. This is their end game strategy after all.
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I think you're wrong there. I think Republicans are looking to create a strong and growing economy that benefits everyone. While what little income growth that was created during the Bush years was eaten up by growing healthcare costs, look at the contrast with what we've had during the Obama years. Incomes have actually decreased significantly, debt and deficit have skyrocketed and prospects for the future don't look good because of the massive debt (that needs to be paid back). It was the same thing with Carter and Reagan....Carter created disporia and malaise through greater regulation and taxes and told the citizens it was our fault that the economy was sputtering (same as Obama) and Reagan said "Nonsense"...just let the people free to be creative and fruitful and they will...

And that is your choice this election cycle too.

Democrats want to create goodness for all through more central control of the economy, more taxes, more regulation, more dependance and freedom for lawyers.

Republicans want to create goodness for all through more freedom for everyone and to provide growth through good incentives (incentives to work and create), lower marginal taxes and less regulation.

The choice is simple.
 
The last year the debt went down, was 1957. Although it's amusing to see either side argue that their side is the side of fiscal responsibility
 
vetteman said:
And any fiscal discipline he had was forced on him by a Republican congress.
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As I recall, during the deliberations and negotiations with Newt, Clinton was kicking and screaming and talking about doomsday if the Republicans got their way....and they did and everything turned out pretty good and Clinton and the democrats took credit for everyhing going well (even though they fought tooth and nail against the Republican approach that worked so well).
 
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