What do YOU want, lover?

[sincerely_helene]

This is a query for those have used, or intend to use an editor for their submission.

What do you hope to see?

How far is too far?

Do you prefer your work to be properly composed, even if it sacrfices your own personal creative flair?

Have you ever felt violated by an editor who made your work sound particularly elaborate, or did you appreciate the effort?

In summary, when one asks for an edit, are they:

a: Asking for it to make sense with flowery terms, replacement of overused dialogue, and or/proper sentence structure, or

b: Just correct my spelling and punctuation, you twat.

Have you ever turned down an editor because they refused a request out of fear it may effect their reputation in the editing profession?

 

[oggbashan]

I expect too much.

I want an editor to spot any inconsistencies of plot or characterisation, implausible actions or speech, and generally to consider the aesthetics of the story.

My language and grammar are my own. My spelling is usually sound.

I want an editor who is a better writer than I am and can edit effectively, enhancing my story, not turning it into one of their own.

I can't do it for others. I think that an editor has to get inside the mind-set of the author and suggest changes that make the story a better version of the author's original, like a polished version of the draft.

And be diplomatic.

Og

 

[sincerely_helene]

"I want an editor who is a better writer than I am and can edit effectively, enhancing my story, not turning it into one of their own.

I can't do it for others. I think that an editor has to get inside the mind-set of the author and suggest changes that make the story a better version of the author's original, like a polished version of the draft."

... But how are any of these suggestions possible without the editor turning it into their own to some degree?

 

[oggbashan]

"I want an editor who is a better writer than I am and can edit effectively, enhancing my story, not turning it into one of their own.

I can't do it for others. I think that an editor has to get inside the mind-set of the author and suggest changes that make the story a better version of the author's original, like a polished version of the draft."

... But how are any of these suggestions possible without the editor turning it into their own to some degree?

That is why it is very difficult to be an editor beyond the basics of grammar and spelling.

Many famous authors have been very harsh about their editors.

Og

 

[minsue]

Many famous authors have been very harsh about their editors.

Og

And yet, in most cases they wouldn't have become famous without them.

 

[oggbashan]

And yet, in most cases they wouldn't have become famous without them.

True. But many authors have over-inflated egos. If they didn't, they wouldn't write for publication.

Og

 

[cantdog]

Heinlein said that an editor pisses in your work, and then he likes the flavor better.

Volunteer editorship here is not the same, in some ways, although the biggest difference is that you get to ignore anything the vol ed says. An Editor, with the upper case E, to whom an article or short has been submitted, generally gets his way, especially with regard to formatting and length. They also get to censor and whatnot, unless a writer is established.

I ask explicitly, here, what the person wants out of an edit. I'm happy to point out comma bloopers and spell-check-resistant typos (likedecent used when descent was obviously intended) and non-invasive things of the sort. I'll point out runons, but leave fragments be, in that mode.

But even if I'm given rein to suggest changes like let's put this whole paragraph before the sister enters the front door or skip this section; the pace needs tightening and all the essentials are mentioned later anyway-- even then, I leave paragraphing to the author unless I'm being arbitrary late at night.

I'll discuss paragraphing in an aside if it's being an issue, but the decision of where to break a paragraph is properly a stylistic one and belongs to the writer.

 

[R. Richard]

What I want from an editor is probably impossible, which is why I do not generally want to use editors.

I want the editor to read and understand my work. If I have a character who uses non-gramatical forms as an integral part of his/her personna, I do not want to be told that ol' Cletus done use that there bad grammer and he shore ought to correct it.

I believe that it is entirely appropriate to use sentence fragments in dialogue. In dialogue, the reader has to consider at least the preceeding sentence and perhaps more than just the preceeding sentence to determine what the character is saying. This is how dialogue works!

I use a spell checker when one is available, however I do appreciate it when an editor catches a subtle misuse of a word.

The biggest problem I have with editors lies in the area of character development. Many writers like to tell the reader about their character. I like to have my characters tell the reader, by the character's actions.

Another problem I have is with the kind of feedback that says either: "Learn how to write." or ""I liked your story!" The second item is much more pleasing, but neither tells me very much that is of any use.

 

[Belegon]

I have not officialy used an editor on lit but what I mostly want is honest reaction right up to and including critical review. Be Mean! I asked for your opinion, not diplomacy. Of course, if I ask someone to read something of mine before I put it out in front of the public it is also as big a compliment about your own writing as I know how to give. I work with people's money, and the biggest compliment I can be given professionally is, "I trust you." I feel that way about my writing.

 

[gauchecritic]

I'm conceited enough to believe that my writing is as good as it is ever going to be without tinkering from someone else.

The one time I was humble enough to ask someone to look at a story of mine before I posted it, I asked a very specific question about a specific scene. The comment I got was invaluable and they were also ingenious enough not to mention anything other than the scene in question. Maybe there's a lesson there.

I've noticed in the public comments on some of my stories, some readers take pains to point out how difficult it is to read my stories on the first go. I'm pretty sure there's a lesson there too but I just cannot bring myself to ask someone to edit for me because I'm afraid they'll rewrite it and then both our time has been wasted.

Interestingly, I sent a part of a story to someone once and they commented adversely on one aspect, so I sent the same part to someone else who saw nothing out of kilter. Guess whose advice I took.

Asking for it to make sense with flowery terms, replacement of overused dialogue, and or/proper sentence structure

If you need this much work from an editor then it's not an editor you need but a collaborator.

Gauche

 

[Guest]

Helene: I cannot say anything about the volunteer editors here, but from experience I will say that first of all a good editor has to be as good a writer as I am, however different in style, etc. I've had three excellent editor friends in my life (one of them a prof. editor, one my brother, one a Lit. author) and rarely disagreed with any of their suggestions, even the elimination of whole sections (of a novel).

I think you'll have to try people out, and you'll just know when you're in sync with them. If an editor suggests something that you just can't understand, or disagree with and they can't explain their reason to you, then go on to another. It should not be a constant give and take.

Also, a good editor works as hard as you do on your work, so do not neglect to show appreciation, respect, undying love, etc.

Perdita

 

[cantdog]

What I want from an editor is probably impossible, which is why I do not generally want to use editors.

I want the editor to read and understand my work. If I have a character who uses non-gramatical forms as an integral part of his/her personna, I do not want to be told that ol' Cletus done use that there bad grammer and he shore ought to correct it.

I believe that it is entirely appropriate to use sentence fragments in dialogue. In dialogue, the reader has to consider at least the preceeding sentence and perhaps more than just the preceeding sentence to determine what the character is saying. This is how dialogue works!

Cletus can fuck up outside of dialogue; I've seen it a lot. If it's rife, I tell Cletus about the stuff in his dialogue, too, because Cletus has given me cause to imagine he doesn't have a clue.

First person stories can often be told in a relaxed and playful style. Toeing a grammatical line isn't a goal for such a story.

So what? If goodie two-shoes points out a grammar error you don't care about, just ignore it and go with your original error. Knowing the author can always do that allows me to go ahead and point it out if I have any doubt whether the author realizes what he's done. You can bitch about it if you like, and feel insulted. But please, unless you're paying for the service, not publicly.

 

[boxofrocks]

I've used an editor on here and was wrapt with the outcome.

She changed a few grammatical errors, suggested paragraph breaks, and basically left it up to me to decide if I wanted to go with her suggestions.

 

[wishfulthinking]

You can bitch about it if you like, and feel insulted. But please, unless you're paying for the service, not publicly.

Yay, someone said it!

Do you prefer your work to be properly composed, even if it sacrfices your own personal creative flair?

---> I think good grammar, punctuation and the like can only enhance and build upon my creative flair, making my writing readable and enjoyable not just to me but maybe even a handful of people!

Have you ever felt violated by an editor who made your work sound particularly elaborate, or did you appreciate the effort?

---> nope. But then I am very clear and upfront about what I want, and so too have been the people I have approached to help me with a story.

In summary, when one asks for an edit, are they:

a: Asking for it to make sense with flowery terms, replacement of overused dialogue, and or/proper sentence structure, or

---> If it needs it, I welcome it! I'm far from perfect, and suggestions like this are made only to help me.

 

[Lucifer_Carroll]

I don't use the lit service because it is so general that I'm guaranteed to not find one that is up to snuff in doing anything more than working as a glorified spell checker.

Generally I edit my works by showing it to a clump of friends or people who know the genre well. If I write a hard sci-fi story, I show it to the other science majors. If I write a fantasy story, it goes to the d&d group. If I write a play, over to the theatre group.

This way I get an opinion from the likely audience I'll have and regardless of theme I send it to one anal-retentive friend of mine pursuing a linguistics doctorate to slap me for any inconsistancies, obvious uses of bad grammar, overt cliches, etc.

 

[sincerely_helene]

Ok. Perhaps it was wrong of me to use Lit volunteers as an example in this case, since my scenario is quite a bit different. It was a poor attempt to simplify a rather complex matter. I apologize for my error.

So, baring that in mind, I will just come right out and openly state why I am asking these questions in the first place.

I was approached a year or so back by a screenplay writer who had just attempted his first novel. After warning him well in advance that editing was a foriegn venture to me, I proceeded to question with regards to what he hoped to see in the final result. His response was that he wanted me to impliment changes he had made to the screenplay into his book, and fix all punctuation and grammatical errors. Of course, this being my first editing job, a minimal fee was mutually agreed upon.

Anyway, I'm not sure if any of you have ever attempted to place a screenplay into novel form, but the dialogue makes for a pretty interesting challenge. To make matters worse, the author had never read a novel before let alone written one, thus pretty much the whole works had to be completly re-structured. The project took me several months, and I became quite frusterated with constant emails and phonecalls asking why it was not yet finished.

To throw another curveball into the mix, we had a minor creative difference when I was confronted about just how many changes were being made. I calmly tried to explain that the composition of the story, and the repeatitive use of certain terms/sentences had forced me to alter quite a bit in order for it to make sense. I had thought he might be happy that I was going that extra mile to help him out, (all though I can also certainly understand how he might have felt a little insulted).

Sure, he could choose to completly ignore all the altercations, but my dilemma is that my name is going to be in the credits. To be very honest, even after my painstaking efforts to try and improve the story, it is poorly done and I'm a little embarassed even having my name associated with it. On the other hand, the primary reason that I took on this task for so little pay was so that I would have something to put in my portfolio.

There is really nothing I can do about it now, except learn from my experiance and accept feedback from those who may have undergone similar circumstances. I worry that if people see how poorly it is written, it might reflect on me and cost me potential projects.

 

[oggbashan]

Life ain't easy and the roles of author and editor are almost certain to make life more difficult for both of you.

If it works well it is a partnership.

If it doesn't it can be like a contested divorce and the literary work represents the kids who will be damaged whatever happens.

Og

 

[sincerely_helene]

Thank you, Oggbashan.

 

[doormouse]

Helene, I sympathise with you.

I edited my first story today ( not my own ).

It's hard to read a story, then make changes, even though you'd love to make changes where you cringe at some of the dialogue/scenes.

I didn't offend, nor did I change anything bar the grammar and a couple of spelling errors.

The story itself was fantastic, but...

Without making it my own story (which I had every intention of doing after reading the story idea in 'story ideas'...), I could clearly see room for improvement. Basically, I could see how I would write it differently.

He did a fantastic job, just needed a few alterations. Which by the way, we all do when we write.

I still want to steal his story idea, but he's done a FAR better job than I ever could have, so all I could do was offer suggestions.

What you did for your author sounds like far beyond the call of duty for an editor. What ever the result, you should still be proud. I'm sure people don't realise just how much time you actually pour into their stories to help them. I spent my entire morning on the story today. I hope he's happy with the outcome, though I'm sure he'll question some of the changes I made.

Okay, enough rambling. Once his story is named, I'm sure you'll all love it. Not for what I added/changed, but it's a truly brilliant story.

 

[pop_54]

I rarely ask for outside editing help... my stories have a unique sort of style that very few but myself and the readers seem to understand... or so some readers have complimented me... Editors I've contacted on the odd occasion seem to want to rip the whole thing to pieces and put it back together in a different style... no point me spending hours writing it for that to happen.

I'm a bit like the lad Gauche, I know what I bloody well mean, it's up to the reader to concentrate a bit more if they want to.

 

[sincerely_helene]

My heartfelt gratitude to those who contributed their perspectives. Probably the most valuable leasson I learned after reviewing this thread is that I may have overstepped some important boundries in my quest to make the project a success.

Selfish, on my part, and something I hope to overcome in the future.

Thanks again.