What do you hate in a story?

[rjordan]

I've always been a crunchy kinda gal. What does that say about me?

The P&G study said white collar more educated tasters preferred crunchy PB. Blue collar, less educated preferred smooth.

rj

 

[Carnal_Flower]

Yes? I don't see this as different from the general situation of all erotic writers.

The "fetish" does not merely describe panty-sniffers or people who like long hair. We like to think it does, it's just "those folks", but there's a fetishistic dimension to all sexualities, more or less pronounced.

Romance has its fetish dimension, so do most categories.

What I do, as a writer of specific fetish stories, is try to write a STORY that has the required elements to meet the particular fetish. The story may work as a story, but if that fetish doesn't appeal to you, the story might not arouse you.

An extreme example is my story "Trapped" about nylon pantyhose. If that is your fetish, you might find it exciting. If it isn't? The whole story seems to be an overreaction by the wife.

My challenge, that I have mentioned before, is to write a competent story about "South Indian Women's Hairy and Sweaty Armpits". There are several English Language Yahoo Adult Groups for that with a total membership of nearly 100,000. (There are many more members for that fetish in various Indian sub-continent languages.) There is an audience but so far I have been unable to complete the story.

 

[NOIRTRASH]

Very interesting comment I would love to see split off into its own thread.

Do people agree?

Is erotica limited by the specificities of a fetish, or is the fetish something to be overcome and "risen above."

Tho, to be clear, when I think "fetish" I'm not thinking something as specific as a pair of underwear. Most categories on this site are fetish-driven, but not all.

To me the fetish is at the crux of the high/low thread. The fetish hits below the belt. It's irrational and arbitrary. You either have it or you don't, usually. What's an erotica writer to do?

If youre not making babies its a fetish.

 

[GforGraham]

If youre not making babies its a fetish.

Can't you do both?
Make babies during a fetish.

I like salad dressing on my fetish!

 

[SecondCircle]

Very interesting comment I would love to see split off into its own thread.

Do people agree?

Is erotica limited by the specificities of a fetish, or is the fetish something to be overcome and "risen above."

Tho, to be clear, when I think "fetish" I'm not thinking something as specific as a pair of underwear. Most categories on this site are fetish-driven, but not all.

To me the fetish is at the crux of the high/low thread. The fetish hits below the belt. It's irrational and arbitrary. You either have it or you don't, usually. What's an erotica writer to do?

We talking kinks or very specific fetishes?

I assume it's the latter you mean. In that sense, sure a certain story can be limited by the fetish included. For example, foot fetish. It's quite common now in both porn and erotica. I see how people could have that taste, But I personally do not have that particular fetish. If it is included as a part of the sex, (where more than just that sexual element happens) it's not going to ruin the story for me or anything. But if the story is soley (no pun) focused on the foot fetish, then it won't be my thing, and yeah I probably won't read it. Nothing wrong with it. Just isn't my thing.

What's a writer to do? Personally, I think we just have to accept that you're not going to "win" every reader over. Even when not writing fetish, whatever you're writing about just might not appeal to certain readers. And that's perfectly fine. Even with common kinks. Certain people find anal disgusting, so they could hit that one element and the story is dead to them. Some don't like fantasy elements, like swords and survey. Some don't like dark material. On and on and on. And when writing a fetish, you're kind of honing in on a specific audience that enjoys that fetish as opposed to winning everyone over with it. So write It for the ones that do enjoy it.

 

[oggbashan]

Yes? I don't see this as different from the general situation of all erotic writers.

The "fetish" does not merely describe panty-sniffers or people who like long hair. We like to think it does, it's just "those folks", but there's a fetishistic dimension to all sexualities, more or less pronounced.

Romance has its fetish dimension, so do most categories.

Your definition of fetish and mine are different.

Fetishistic is NOT fetish. Fetish means that the particular stimulus MUST be present or nothing happens.

Unbirth, Foot Worship; Hypnosis/Mind Control; Silk/Satin; Nylon Encasement etc. are fetishes. Of course people who don't have that fetish can play around with the fetish, but they are not fetishists.

 

[SecondCircle]

Yes? I don't see this as different from the general situation of all erotic writers.

The "fetish" does not merely describe panty-sniffers or people who like long hair. We like to think it does, it's just "those folks", but there's a fetishistic dimension to all sexualities, more or less pronounced.

Romance has its fetish dimension, so do most categories.

Just saw this one.

What you're describing here sounds more like "taste". You do have a point that one person's normal sex can be someone else's taboo or "fetish", but to me fetish points to a particular form of arousal, usually by sexual means outside the accepted "just sex". Like balloon fetish, panty fetish, or foot ferish. That's what makes them fetish. The arousal is quite centralized and specific.

 

[HandsInTheDark]

It kind of bugs me when people loosely throw around terms that have formal definitions.

Fetish isn't used correctly on Lit. A sexual fetish is a sexual fascination with a nonlivng object, or sometimes a body part that's not commonly considered sexual (feet is the canonical example). A nylon fascination is a fetish if a guy handles stockings and gets off; if he just likes them on a woman's leg and doesn't care for them once they are off, it's not a proper fetish.

Generally people here mean 'kink', not fetish. Pretty much anything can be a kink. Like having your ass slapped and paddled? Kink. Like slapping asses? Could be a fetish, but generally a kink.

I don't know if having a fetish means the fetish is the only way you get off. But in practice it seems to be a common situation. Kinks seem a little more relaxed, but I've known people who really only get off if you work their kink.

 

[lovecraft68]

It kind of bugs me when people loosely throw around terms that have formal definitions.

Fetish isn't used correctly on Lit. A sexual fetish is a sexual fascination with a nonlivng object, or sometimes a body part that's not commonly considered sexual (feet is the canonical example). A nylon fascination is a fetish if a guy handles stockings and gets off; if he just likes them on a woman's leg and doesn't care for them once they are off, it's not a proper fetish.

Generally people here mean 'kink', not fetish. Pretty much anything can be a kink. Like having your ass slapped and paddled? Kink. Like slapping asses? Could be a fetish, but generally a kink.

I don't know if having a fetish means the fetish is the only way you get off. But in practice it seems to be a common situation. Kinks seem a little more relaxed, but I've known people who really only get off if you work their kink.

Well if we're talking like that I'll offer up the BDSM category which in general is a haven for non con the author doesn't want to call non con and a plethora of people writing who obviously have no clue what's involved other than bondage and women being beaten.

Its why I stopped writing there five years ago and have only published one story since and that one was a fuck you challenge piece to a poser.

In fact to cross over your post about fetish only on lit does femdom, which is a huge part of BDSM(everyone has heard of a dominatrix no matter how green you are) plays like crap in BDSM because the people there think its all about women being submissive(or beaten 80% of the time) and where it does well is fetish. Femdom is an aspect of BDSM not a fetish in the real world, but...

Anyway what I learned with BDSM and looking at your opinion on fetish/kink is that there's two things at play. One, what's in the real world that we have experienced and have first hand knowledge of and the other; "what's here". Seeing we're on here its just easier to go by what flies here and decide to like it or not. Pointing it out and arguing it pretty much go nowhere.

Best example of all is a site that puts reluctance with non consent, as big of an apples and oranges difference as you can find mixed together for convenience.

It is what it is.

 

[Hypoxia]

Yeah, good luck keeping stories relevant for 20 years. The issue has become less of a pet peeve for me because an awful lot of good literature plot has been invalidated by technology.

Period pieces are not invalidated, and I mainly write those, usually set 1970-2005, some pre-1900. And yes, I also do 'timeless' and contemporary. And for all those I must be aware of the time's technology, which often helps shape the plot. Many of my pre-contemporary tales pivot on constrained communications. 'Timeless' can be tricky if not impossible. Maybe a consistent fantasy is easiest.

 

[HandsInTheDark]

One, what's in the real world that we have experienced and have first hand knowledge of and the other; "what's here". Seeing we're on here its just easier to go by what flies here and decide to like it or not. Pointing it out and arguing it pretty much go nowhere.

Agree to disagree. It's when people start misusing terms that shit starts. Words are tools; keep them clean and sharp and you don't have accidents. If other people don't know what words mean and try to start shit, you point them to an online dictionary and the argument is over. It saves a lot of shouting.

And yeah, the categories on Lit don't make a hell of a lot of sense. Things that don't fit are lumped together; things that are not orthogonal become either-ors. It's annoying.

 

[GforGraham]

Online dictionaries are of only very limited use. They are set to a region or country without telling you which one or where. They also can include input from Joe Public which negates any dictionary based use of the word.
Words also change meaning over time, so at some time their use was not in the dictionary at the time, but accepted usage made its way into the dictionary.
Yes I use a dictionary, based in my country. This would be useless to someone from UK or USA. We have to live with words we consider misused or misspelt because that writer uses them as he/she writes. Can be confusing to the reader.
Nothing in my defining dictionary that says fetish is the only way you can get your rocks off. Only as something that gives sexual stimulation, amongst other unrelated meanings. A fetishist is just someone who has a fetish, nothing more nothing less.
Perhaps other countries have more extreme definitions.

 

[HandsInTheDark]

My challenge, that I have mentioned before, is to write a competent story about "South Indian Women's Hairy and Sweaty Armpits". There are several English Language Yahoo Adult Groups for that with a total membership of nearly 100,000. (There are many more members for that fetish in various Indian sub-continent languages.) There is an audience but so far I have been unable to complete the story.

I'm trying to figure out why you'd try. I mean I'm assuming you aren't into hairy, sweaty armpits; I know I'm turned off right off the bat. And the potential market by your estimate is 0.0013% of the world's population. Given that you don't like it and they're not exactly a major market, what's the point?

 

[GforGraham]

Can only assume you all hate fetishes in stories as this topic is what you hate in stories.
Sorry got lost from the topic myself.

Hate when things get sidetracked from the main theme of the story, and the sidetrack bears no relevance to the story outcome. It is included only for padding the story.
Go start a new story for the sidetrack.

Hmm, seems familiar somehow.

 

[NOIRTRASH]

Fetish was originally applied to African charms but the word comes from Latin and was applied to objects having magical or religious or supernatural benefits. Think of kissing someone's ring. Today it applies to kissing the ass, too.

 

[NoJo]

If youre not making babies its a fetish.

I have a masturbation fetish

 

[TxRad]

I have a masturbation fetish

If everyone does it, is it still a fetish?

 

[Bramblethorn]

It kind of bugs me when people loosely throw around terms that have formal definitions.

Fetish isn't used correctly on Lit. A sexual fetish is a sexual fascination with a nonlivng object, or sometimes a body part that's not commonly considered sexual (feet is the canonical example). A nylon fascination is a fetish if a guy handles stockings and gets off; if he just likes them on a woman's leg and doesn't care for them once they are off, it's not a proper fetish.

Here's a bunch of professional researchers discussing fetishism in a peer-reviewed paper:

http://www.nature.com/ijir/journal/v19/n4/full/3901547a.html

"The word 'fetish' that we used to locate data on sexual preferences is utilized in everyday language with a much broader scope than its psychiatric definition, and the two should not be confused. In everyday usage, 'fetish' refers to sexually arousing stimuli that would not meet psychiatric criteria for a diagnosis of fetishism..."

Yep, if you look up a medical reference you're likely to find a narrow definition of "fetish" similar to what you've invoked. And if you look in a respectable dictionary, you'll probably find a definition that's been copied from one of those medical references.

But anybody who's had much to do with such references knows they're not the source of all truth. If you're writing up medical diagnoses it's great to have a standard unchanging definition, so that the next doctor who reads your notes understands exactly what you meant. But in the rest of the world, language changes over time, different subcultures use it differently, and it's very hard for any dictionary to stay on top of that. The nice people at the OED, ICD, and DSM are not paid to go hang out in BDSM clubs and find out how words are used there; why would we expect them to be authoritative guides to that usage?

 

[Bramblethorn]

Period pieces are not invalidated, and I mainly write those, usually set 1970-2005, some pre-1900. And yes, I also do 'timeless' and contemporary. And for all those I must be aware of the time's technology, which often helps shape the plot. Many of my pre-contemporary tales pivot on constrained communications. 'Timeless' can be tricky if not impossible. Maybe a consistent fantasy is easiest.

Period pieces are hard work if you don't want to be nitpicked to death by history buffs. Playing in an established fictional setting can be even worse. (J.K. Rowling used to go visit a fan-created Harry Potter wiki to check stuff against her own continuity, and she still tripped up sometimes.)

TV and Hollywood seem to have a more relaxed standard. Everybody knows hacking an alien spaceship with your MacBook is bullshit, but ID4 still made almost a billion dollars.

 

[lovecraft68]

Agree to disagree. It's when people start misusing terms that shit starts. Words are tools; keep them clean and sharp and you don't have accidents. If other people don't know what words mean and try to start shit, you point them to an online dictionary and the argument is over. It saves a lot of shouting.

And yeah, the categories on Lit don't make a hell of a lot of sense. Things that don't fit are lumped together; things that are not orthogonal become either-ors. It's annoying.

Maybe you're right and digging in is worth it, but sometimes I get tired of saying "No, this is what it is" because everyone thinks they're right and then the writing Nazi shows up and tells everyone they're trying to tell people how to write.

Fetish is a grey area. I got your point, but think ist not as easy as fetish and kink.

BTW when you mentioned if its still a fetish is a person can get off without it, yes it is.

A fetish is as you said an attraction to a body part-or act-that is not normally associated with sex. Golden showers are a fetish.

But using feet as an easy example. If my wife's feet turn me on and get me going and I involve them in sex, sucking on them, fucking them, etc...that's fetish as long as I don't need her feet to get off

fetishism is pretty much when fetish becomes obsession. Example my wife wants to have sex, but her feet aren't involved, maybe I can't even see them in that position. I can't get into it, can barely even get an erection or maybe I can't even get it up. She then lays back, puts her toes in my mouth and all is well and I'm rearing to go then that's fetishism, I am dependent on the fetish to enjoy sex.

 

[lovecraft68]

Here's a bunch of professional researchers discussing fetishism in a peer-reviewed paper:

http://www.nature.com/ijir/journal/v19/n4/full/3901547a.html

"The word 'fetish' that we used to locate data on sexual preferences is utilized in everyday language with a much broader scope than its psychiatric definition, and the two should not be confused. In everyday usage, 'fetish' refers to sexually arousing stimuli that would not meet psychiatric criteria for a diagnosis of fetishism..."

Yep, if you look up a medical reference you're likely to find a narrow definition of "fetish" similar to what you've invoked. And if you look in a respectable dictionary, you'll probably find a definition that's been copied from one of those medical references.

But anybody who's had much to do with such references knows they're not the source of all truth. If you're writing up medical diagnoses it's great to have a standard unchanging definition, so that the next doctor who reads your notes understands exactly what you meant. But in the rest of the world, language changes over time, different subcultures use it differently, and it's very hard for any dictionary to stay on top of that. The nice people at the OED, ICD, and DSM are not paid to go hang out in BDSM clubs and find out how words are used there; why would we expect them to be authoritative guides to that usage?

I like the last part of your post. The net is a bog source of knowledge, especially in the research, educational, theory sense.

But....sex is an intimate physical act that is different for every single person due to an infinite number of reasons. Life experience, upbringing, their current emotional state...

Sex to me is you have to pay to play. Keep the shrinks and experts, I'll take what I know gleaned from years of experiencing a variety of things and being around people whit similar and different experiences who talk about-and sometimes demonstrate-them.

You can't learn kink and sex from a book. Just like it is fairly impossible to explain how a person can get sexual satisfaction from inflicting or receiving pain to someone who doesn't. I think we're pre-wired for our kinks to some degree then real life adds to it, but if you are not wired as a top or bottom you will never get it, you can read up on it all you want, but you won't truly ever understand.

 

[NoJo]

If everyone does it, is it still a fetish?

To be deviant is perfectly normal , but to be perfectly normal is really fucking weird

 

[Hypoxia]

The nice people at the OED, ICD, and DSM are not paid to go hang out in BDSM clubs and find out how words are used there; why would we expect them to be authoritative guides to that usage?

Maybe not, but they ARE paid to scan social media and note current word usage. They're about as authoritative as we'll get.

Both medical and popular use of fetish are historically wrong. A fetish is a sacred object, a hand-wrought figure imbued with power. Without power, it's merely a figure, a carved bear or deer or kachina dancer. With power, it's a fetish. I have a small collection of Zuñi fetishes and figures both. I'd call a 'blessed' crucifix a fetish also. 'Fetish' as a sexual term is a stretch.

Meanwhile, we have a classic case of subculture totally obliterating a word, giving it exactly its opposite meaning: cuckold. In mainstream, he's the clueless pathetic sap whose wife is cheating. If he knows and more-or-less accepts the wife's promiscuity, he's a wittol, a willing wimp. But to fetishists (general definition) he's a cuck. I blame this on wimps assuming the victim's role, attempting denial of their wimpiness. Mainstream and fetishist cuckolds are opposites, one willing, one not. How can we communicate clearly with such misunderstood terms?

Period pieces are hard work if you don't want to be nitpicked to death by history buffs.

Luckily, I'm a history buff on my stories' eras. My upcoming Valentine Contest tale THE BOTANISTS is VERY accurate because I stole from only the best sources. Sure, I had to make up the sex etc, but other than that...

Maybe I should talk about my reality fetish.

 

[Carnal_Flower]

"Fetish can also refer to sexual interest in specific activities in common discourse." -- wikipedia

There's a very specific definition, and there's a broader definition of common usage, as in, "he has a fetish for watching Soprano's reruns."

Sexual fetishism encompasses a wide range, from the specificity of a nonliving object to a man always wanting his nipples licked to ONLY reading Romance stories.

I supposed I'm thinking along the lines of KINK or TASTE, but neither of those are strong enough. FETISH implies a much stronger and usually unconscious bond between the subject and the object. I choose to use it because I like the compulsive aspect it conveys. A kink you can take on or off, dabble in, go through a "phase," a fetish not so much.

If someone can only get off if you work their kink, I would call that a fetish. Its what is inescapable and necessary to your arousal and orgasm vs. "I think I'll try a candy bar today, and a piece of fruit tomorrow."

Taste I don't like because that implies too much conscious choice. Tastes come and go, but a fetish is usually permanent and driven. It's what you can't get rid of.

It kind of bugs me when people loosely throw around terms that have formal definitions.

Fetish isn't used correctly on Lit. A sexual fetish is a sexual fascination with a nonlivng object, or sometimes a body part that's not commonly considered sexual (feet is the canonical example). A nylon fascination is a fetish if a guy handles stockings and gets off; if he just likes them on a woman's leg and doesn't care for them once they are off, it's not a proper fetish.

Generally people here mean 'kink', not fetish. Pretty much anything can be a kink. Like having your ass slapped and paddled? Kink. Like slapping asses? Could be a fetish, but generally a kink.

I don't know if having a fetish means the fetish is the only way you get off. But in practice it seems to be a common situation. Kinks seem a little more relaxed, but I've known people who really only get off if you work their kink.

 

[lovecraft68]

Of course what is overlooked when definition debates come up is that words evolve.

About a year ago it seemed every other thread was about Cuck and what it was and the Wittol debate started and ultimately the answer is the word cuck is meaning something different these days and being used by people who consider themselves cucks.

So the stubborn people insist they should 'give the word back' others just go with the flow.

Yes fetish meant idol at one point and in voodoo they make fetish dolls. But you say fetish now and the vast majority of people think something sexual. Is someoen going to hunt all those people down and tell them to invent a new word?

The best example of all is gay. Gay's original meaning was not homosexual, but now it means that and are all the gays going to get together and decide to call themselves something else because somehow they stole a word?

What people say in real life gives definition to words, some stay the same, some change and its all ticky tack anyway.