What are your thoughts on Tim McViegh

[rgraham666]

I disagree, Jenny.

Separating McVeigh's act from the actions of the militias in Iraq is like separating the blue light from the spectrum and declaring it different.

It's all on a single continuum of evil.

 

[Jenny_Jackson]

I disagree, Jenny.

Separating McVeigh's act from the actions of the militias in Iraq is like separating the blue light from the spectrum and declaring it different.

It's all on a single continuum of evil.

I didn't say it wasn't evil, Rob. But I do believe he was misguided in a very different way than the terrorists who blow up cars in Iraq or train stations in Tokyo.

In either case, the act is a sad and sick version of how modern civilization is supposed to work.

 

[mikey2much]

One last word and I will drop it

I disagree, Jenny.

Separating McVeigh's act from the actions of the militias in Iraq is like separating the blue light from the spectrum and declaring it different.

It's all on a single continuum of evil.

I know that you guys think that I am one sick fuck. I don't agree with your thinking there but I understand why you think that.
I think that you are wrong if you seperate the O. K. City bombing from Waco.

It is all on a single continium of evil.

I will drop this thread, truth be known I wish that I hadn't brought it up.
As I writer you have to put your self into other people's minds and try to imagine what they were thinking. That is what led me to this conversation, not a love for Timothy McViegh. I was writing a short story about a man who had reached the end of his rope and wanted to strike back with his own death and take a few of the guilty with him.

One post said that he should have stayed in the truck, maybe he should've.

I don't think that anyone here would agree that Waco was handled very well.
Maybe I'm wrong about that too. But I would've thought that anybody who had a brain would be against the killings of those 89 people by the forces of goverment. And they didn't just shoot them first they surrounded them and played loud music so that they couldn't sleep for days, then they started to ram the building with the guns mounted on the tanks so that they ccould shoot a flamable tear gas inside the building. They law knew that they were heating with space heaters inside the building. When the fire broke out everyone seemed to wonder how that could have happened. Imagine the uncaring of those men who were comitting those acts. They knew there were kids inside that building and it didn't stop them from using the harshest tactics.
My finial word here is this. Timothy McViegh was no more wrong then those men were. Both sides inflicted heavy losses on innocent people including children. One side was labled and asshole with no redeeming features and killed, That was McViegh.

The people who did that foul act in Waco were promoted.

After the bombing the goverment turn against the ones who did the killing in Waco and fired them. McViegh caused those dismissals, he forced the govermment to ackowledge that they had been wrong in Waco. It is a shame that it took a bombinmg to make them see that.

I personally would not let my kids stay in a daycare that was located inthe same building with those killers. But that is just me.

To me the law was totally wrong in everything they did in waco. That is the ONLY thing that lets me have any understanding of what Timothy McViegh did.
mikey

 

[Zeb_Carter]

I know that you guys think that I am one sick fuck. I don't agree with your thinking there but I understand why you think that.
I think that you are wrong if you seperate the O. K. City bombing from Waco.

It is all on a single continium of evil.

I will drop this thread, truth be known I wish that I hadn't brought it up.
As I writer you have to put your self into other people's minds and try to imagine what they were thinking. That is what led me to this conversation, not a love for Timothy McViegh. I was writing a short story about a man who had reached the end of his rope and wanted to strike back with his own death and take a few of the guilty with him.

One post said that he should have stayed in the truck, maybe he should've.

I don't think that anyone here would agree that Waco was handled very well.
Maybe I'm wrong about that too. But I would've thought that anybody who had a brain would be against the killings of those 89 people by the forces of goverment. And they didn't just shoot them first they surrounded them and played loud music so that they couldn't sleep for days, then they started to ram the building with the guns mounted on the tanks so that they ccould shoot a flamable tear gas inside the building. They law knew that they were heating with space heaters inside the building. When the fire broke out everyone seemed to wonder how that could have happened. Imagine the uncaring of those men who were comitting those acts. They knew there were kids inside that building and it didn't stop them from using the harshest tactics.
My finial word here is this. Timothy McViegh was no more wrong then those men were. Both sides inflicted heavy losses on innocent people including children. One side was labled and asshole with no redeeming features and killed, That was McViegh.

The people who did that foul act in Waco were promoted.

After the bombing the goverment turn against the ones who did the killing in Waco and fired them. McViegh caused those dismissals, he forced the govermment to ackowledge that they had been wrong in Waco. It is a shame that it took a bombinmg to make them see that.

I personally would not let my kids stay in a daycare that was located inthe same building with those killers. But that is just me.

To me the law was totally wrong in everything they did in waco. That is the ONLY thing that lets me have any understanding of what Timothy McViegh did.
mikey

As for Wacko...those nut jobs killed themselves, they started the fires, they either chose or were forced to stay in the buildings as they burned. They weren't forced by the authorities either. Any of them could have come out and no harm would have befallen them, especially the children.

I bet you think that it was the government that blew-up the WTC and not those planes full of passengers slamming into the towers.

 

[Sherry Hawk]

I know that you guys think that I am one sick fuck. I don't agree with your thinking there but I understand why you think that.
I think that you are wrong if you seperate the O. K. City bombing from Waco.

It is all on a single continium of evil.

I will drop this thread, truth be known I wish that I hadn't brought it up.
As I writer you have to put your self into other people's minds and try to imagine what they were thinking. That is what led me to this conversation, not a love for Timothy McViegh. I was writing a short story about a man who had reached the end of his rope and wanted to strike back with his own death and take a few of the guilty with him.

One post said that he should have stayed in the truck, maybe he should've.

I don't think that anyone here would agree that Waco was handled very well.
Maybe I'm wrong about that too. But I would've thought that anybody who had a brain would be against the killings of those 89 people by the forces of goverment. And they didn't just shoot them first they surrounded them and played loud music so that they couldn't sleep for days, then they started to ram the building with the guns mounted on the tanks so that they ccould shoot a flamable tear gas inside the building. They law knew that they were heating with space heaters inside the building. When the fire broke out everyone seemed to wonder how that could have happened. Imagine the uncaring of those men who were comitting those acts. They knew there were kids inside that building and it didn't stop them from using the harshest tactics.
My finial word here is this. Timothy McViegh was no more wrong then those men were. Both sides inflicted heavy losses on innocent people including children. One side was labled and asshole with no redeeming features and killed, That was McViegh.

The people who did that foul act in Waco were promoted.

After the bombing the goverment turn against the ones who did the killing in Waco and fired them. McViegh caused those dismissals, he forced the govermment to ackowledge that they had been wrong in Waco. It is a shame that it took a bombinmg to make them see that.

I personally would not let my kids stay in a daycare that was located inthe same building with those killers. But that is just me.

To me the law was totally wrong in everything they did in waco. That is the ONLY thing that lets me have any understanding of what Timothy McViegh did.
mikey

Waco was mishandled.

Ruby Ridge was mishandled.

The "reign of terror" at Pine Ridge was mishandled.

The list goes on and on. Doesn't excuse what McVeigh did.

You can't "fix" something by killing innocent people.

 

[rgraham666]

Warning!

This post contains an extremely disturbing picture. Please, don't read it if you're likely to be upset by it.



















What I'm finding amusing is that mikey, who claims to be on the 'left', is using events that are usually used by the 'right' to show how evil the government is. Just goes to show how fond people are of deciding their position and then cherry picking 'facts' to support it.

And mikey, the officials involved at Ruby Ridge, Waco etc did not go in under orders to 'flatten them!' Those incidents were fuckups, they were not intentional.

McVeigh's intention was to kill as many people as possible. If kids and innocents were involved that was a price he was willing to pay. Although he probably hated Stalin, McVeigh would have agreed with Stalin's observation that "You can't make an omelette without breaking a few eggs."

I doubt many of the people at Waco feel good about what happened. They probably still lose sleep over it.

If McVeigh was still alive, he'd be losing no sleep. In fact he'd look at this famous picture before he went to sleep.

http://www.azstarnet.com/public/packages/okc_verdict/bomb3.jpg

And he'd smile, knowing that he had struck a great blow for freedom.

That's a road you're traveling down, mikey. Turn back before it's too late.

 

[ABSTRUSE]

That picture still haunts me. Not just as a mother but as a human being.

 

[rgraham666]

That picture still haunts me. Not just as a mother but as a human being.

Me too, Abs. It's always the first thing that flashes into my mind when that incident if mentioned.

 

[mikey2much]

You must be one of those 'My country right or wrong' sort of guys

As for Wacko...those nut jobs killed themselves, they started the fires, they either chose or were forced to stay in the buildings as they burned. They weren't forced by the authorities either. Any of them could have come out and no harm would have befallen them, especially the children.

I bet you think that it was the government that blew-up the WTC and not those planes full of passengers slamming into the towers.

There has been some conflicting views by people who are a lot smarter about those things then I am. You are dealing with a group of people who think that God is on thier side. That is a group who would think little of killing a couple of thousand to get control of the country to make everybody else tow the line like their religion demands.

You can see these people at work everyday in Iraq. The fact that we haver our forces over there in the first place tells me that we have leadership that share these views.

 

[mikey2much]

I

Warning!

This post contains an extremely disturbing picture. Please, don't read it if you're likely to be upset by it.

What I'm finding amusing is that mikey, who claims to be on the 'left', is using events that are usually used by the 'right' to show how evil the government is. Just goes to show how fond people are of deciding their position and then cherry picking 'facts' to support it.

And mikey, the officials involved at Ruby Ridge, Waco etc did not go in under orders to 'flatten them!' Those incidents were fuckups, they were not intentional.

McVeigh's intention was to kill as many people as possible. If kids and innocents were involved that was a price he was willing to pay. Although he probably hated Stalin, McVeigh would have agreed with Stalin's observation that "You can't make an omelette without breaking a few eggs."

I doubt many of the people at Waco feel good about what happened. They probably still lose sleep over it.

If McVeigh was still alive, he'd be losing no sleep. In fact he'd look at this famous picture before he went to sleep.

http://www.azstarnet.com/public/packages/okc_verdict/bomb3.jpg

And he'd smile, knowing that he had struck a great blow for freedom.

That's a road you're traveling down, mikey. Turn back before it's too late.

You are wrong about Ruby Ridge. They sent a military hit team of snipers in there and gave them shoot to kill on sight orders. On the Waco thing, they wanted David Keresh, he went on a jog for several miles every morning, why didn't they nab him on one of his jogs. They wanted to use military tactics and they did. They were just surprised when they were fired back on when they did. After the lost of those men in the beginning I think from that moment on they acted as if the whole building was full of cop killers.

The people inside had been brainwashed into thinking that some day the law would come and kill them for their beliefs. Beliving that would have made it hard for them to give up to those forces of evil. The people on the outside knew they felt that way.

In the end it seems that they were right about that. As an american I feel bad about being tho one helping to pay for this type of law enforcement.

When you have the cops surrounding your house and doing everything in their power to disrubt your thinking and sleeping. Remember what you are telling me now, see if it makes as much sense to you then. It might to you sence you think that it is your country out there with the guns calling for you to come out. But if you thought that it was the forces of evil like they did, I think you might view it differently.
mikey

 

[Kev H]

You can see these people at work everyday in Iraq. The fact that we haver our forces over there in the first place tells me that we have leadership that share these views.

I tried several replies in an attempt to help you, mikey. Please, take a deep breath and think about this as objectively as you can: there are 300+ million people in this country--for the most part, they are certain enough that the government isn't going to kill them that they lead a normal life (whatever that may be), free from the fears that fuel paranoia. It's wonderfully liberating, especially when coupled with the confidence that each situation will be taken and dealt with as rationally as possible.

The people who agree with you, share your views, are all fearful, having problems with their self-confidence, and only feeling satisfied when they can work someone else up to the same fevered pitch. Is this who you honestly want for intellectual (or otherwise) company? If the answer is yes, then I can promise you that peace/long-term-satisfaction will never be yours without outside help.

If you hesitate, then step back from the brink. Make it your goal to not worry about those fringe elements, or their confusing stories (of which you will have to understand that you will never know the complete info to be able to draw any of your previous conclusions without a push--from fear or some other unheathy motivator). Instead, focus on doing the best you can to be an honerable person, and find things that make you happy.

Seriously, learn what not to do from Keresh and company--don't be an organized loony who does a bunch of stupid shit to raise red flags and then expect complete tolerance. You simply won't get that--does that make our government bad? Nope, only to the loonies, and that makes them good, in most people's book.

 

[rgraham666]

I have no more to say, mikey. You've made up your mind. You know the government is the repository of all evil and must be fought to the last breath.

We'll be reading about you in the news. Our emotions will be pity for your victims and loathing for you.

I just hope you don't do too much damage before you perform your dramatic suicide.

 

[FatDino]

Just imagine if the FBI reads this thread...

 

[elsol]

*burp*

My problem is that McVeigh was an idiot.

He blew up a building... big fucking whup! Take down the better part of the federal government, and I'll be impressed.

A homegrown terrorist who could blend into his environment to the point of not even being on the radar and THIS is what he came up?

I hate amateurs.

 

[elsol]

We'll be reading about you in the news. Our emotions will be pity for your victims and loathing for you.

I just hope you don't do too much damage before you perform your dramatic suicide.

Why you got to be like that?

Now, you're instigating.

So when he does it, you'll feel bad 'cause you'll wonder if your words were what made him snap.

 

[mikey2much]

It sounds as though you have a good heart and a working brain.

I tried several replies in an attempt to help you, mikey. Please, take a deep breath and think about this as objectively as you can: there are 300+ million people in this country--for the most part, they are certain enough that the government isn't going to kill them that they lead a normal life (whatever that may be), free from the fears that fuel paranoia. It's wonderfully liberating, especially when coupled with the confidence that each situation will be taken and dealt with as rationally as possible.

The people who agree with you, share your views, are all fearful, having problems with their self-confidence, and only feeling satisfied when they can work someone else up to the same fevered pitch. Is this who you honestly want for intellectual (or otherwise) company? If the answer is yes, then I can promise you that peace/long-term-satisfaction will never be yours without outside help.

If you hesitate, then step back from the brink. Make it your goal to not worry about those fringe elements, or their confusing stories (of which you will have to understand that you will never know the complete info to be able to draw any of your previous conclusions without a push--from fear or some other unheathy motivator). Instead, focus on doing the best you can to be an honerable person, and find things that make you happy.

Seriously, learn what not to do from Keresh and company--don't be an organized loony who does a bunch of stupid shit to raise red flags and then expect complete tolerance. You simply won't get that--does that make our government bad? Nope, only to the loonies, and that makes them good, in most people's book.

I share the good heart but I have to wonder if my brain is working as well as it should when I start some stupid post like this. Thanks for your concern and I am grateful for you insights.
mikey

 

[mikey2much]

You can both rest easy.

Why you got to be like that?

Now, you're instigating.

So when he does it, you'll feel bad 'cause you'll wonder if your words were what made him snap.

At the worst I would be like an old man who has eaten beans for supper, I might be unpleasant company but I would never be a danger to anybody. Like the song says, Iam just an old hippie trying to adjust.
mikey

 

[jomar]

I think that Timothy McViegh may have been right to do what he did; I think that he gave his life to stop the country from going down a wrong path. I would rank him up there with Nathan Hale, the man who famously said that he only regretted having one life to give for his country.

Nathan Hale was a hero because he gave his life fighting for the Continental Army against the British in the American Revolutionary War. Tim McVeigh was a crackpot "fighting" his own government. How can you rank them similarly - based on conviction of beliefs?

I don't think that anyone here would agree that Waco was handled very well.
Maybe I'm wrong about that too. But I would've thought that anybody who had a brain would be against the killings of those 89 people by the forces of goverment. And they didn't just shoot them first they surrounded them and played loud music so that they couldn't sleep for days, then they started to ram the building with the guns mounted on the tanks so that they ccould shoot a flamable tear gas inside the building. They law knew that they were heating with space heaters inside the building. When the fire broke out everyone seemed to wonder how that could have happened. Imagine the uncaring of those men who were comitting those acts. They knew there were kids inside that building and it didn't stop them from using the harshest tactics.

My finial word here is this. Timothy McViegh was no more wrong then those men were. Both sides inflicted heavy losses on innocent people including children. One side was labled and asshole with no redeeming features and killed, That was McViegh.

I'm trying to understand where you're coming from here. There's no doubt that Waco was handled poorly and that things got out of control. How was Timothy McVeigh no more wrong? He deliberately blew up the building with people inside? The powers at Waco fucked up big time. There's a world of difference. I don't think Waco and McVeigh are comparable for anything other than people died needlessly.

 

[Pure]

mikey

M2MI don't think that anyone here would agree that Waco was handled very well.
Maybe I'm wrong about that too. But I would've thought that anybody who had a brain would be against the killings of those 89 people by the forces of goverment. And they didn't just shoot them first they surrounded them and played loud music so that they couldn't sleep for days, then they started to ram the building with the guns mounted on the tanks so that they ccould shoot a flamable tear gas inside the building. They law knew that they were heating with space heaters inside the building. When the fire broke out everyone seemed to wonder how that could have happened. Imagine the uncaring of those men who were comitting those acts. They knew there were kids inside that building and it didn't stop them from using the harshest tactics.
My finial word here is this. Timothy McViegh was no more wrong then those men were. Both sides inflicted heavy losses on innocent people including children. One side was labled and asshole with no redeeming features and killed, That was McViegh.

The people who did that foul act in Waco were promoted.

After the bombing the goverment turn against the ones who did the killing in Waco and fired them. McViegh caused those dismissals, he forced the govermment to ackowledge that they had been wrong in Waco. It is a shame that it took a bombinmg to make them see that
====

P: Any evidence for the statements of the last para? Any source for your "facts"? (besides the Aryan Nation website).

Hey you forgot to applaud the other fine freedom fighters over in Japan; the fellows who put nerve gas in the subway. Boy, that really showed the govt!

==
IF we assume for the sake of argument that someone in the gov needed to be punished for Waco, I would at least understand Mc Veigh's deranged "reasoning" if he had hunted down the leaders of that operation, and assassinated them. Seems like "hunting down" civil servants and their kids in the gov't building in Oklahoma city has no reasonable or rational connection. Unless you present facts to the contrary, it's somewhat like the IRA bombing a bar which Brit civilians go, because they don't like the Brit's Irish policy and occupation.

Apart from the morals of this, in military terms, killing vulnerable civilians has NOT worked very well for any group---there's no reason to think that the IRA's bombing, for example, of Harrod dept store affected Brit Gov. policy.

IF anything, some acts probably worsen policy, e.g., the 9-11 bombings; I don't see that the US gov *reduced its aid* to governments that the Al Qaeda bombers disapproved of, e.g., Saudi Arabia.

 

[S-Des]

There has been some conflicting views by people who are a lot smarter about those things then I am. You are dealing with a group of people who think that God is on thier side. That is a group who would think little of killing a couple of thousand to get control of the country to make everybody else tow the line like their religion demands.

You can see these people at work everyday in Iraq. The fact that we haver our forces over there in the first place tells me that we have leadership that share these views.

I swear this is my last post here. Mikey, you are mixing complete ignorance, paranoid fantasies, and ridiculous logic to make an interesting soup. The Clinton administration oversaw the Waco fiasco (we all know how they sought to forcibly convert everyone to their religion ). The tank flamethrowing bullshit was far right nutjob speak (just like Charlie Sheen's far left nutjob crap about the government blowing up the twin towers). No one who was smart bought into it, except to get stupid people to nod in agreement.

While the "poor folks" at Waco were hold up against the evil government, David Koresh was busy fucking his 11-15 year old wives on a daily basis. I'm hoping you're not in favor of child abuse, or believe the government should let it go if the homeowner refuses to come out of his house. The ATF didn't grab him because they were trying to impress reporters, not because of some desire to use paramilitary tactics. To claim so with absolutely no facts makes you come across as a complete psycho (although I already had you there due to some of your earlier comments). You are taking the far (really fucking far) Right position on Waco (that the Lefty Clinton's were trying to murder Christians), then talking about it as if it was a Left theory. I just can't imagine anyone really believing what you're spewing. Forget McVeigh's tactics and how evil they were, your entire premise is ridiculous bordering on insane. I'm with Rob...get some help and stop reading conspiracy theories.

 

[Liar]

get some help and stop reading conspiracy theories.

Ah, but the tin foil hat look is so ON this spring. It's the new black and everything.

 

[Guest]

Ah, but the tin foil hat look is so ON this spring. It's the new black and everything.

And it matches my new nipple rings.

 

[Liar]

And it matches my new nipple rings.

Tin foil nipple rings? That's just downright kinky.

 

[Guest]

Tin foil nipple rings? That's just downright kinky.

Well, the plastic wrap ones were itchy.

 

[Zeb_Carter]

There has been some conflicting views by people who are a lot smarter about those things then I am. You are dealing with a group of people who think that God is on thier side. That is a group who would think little of killing a couple of thousand to get control of the country to make everybody else tow the line like their religion demands.

You can see these people at work everyday in Iraq. The fact that we haver our forces over there in the first place tells me that we have leadership that share these views.

No, the one who thought that God, actually he thought he was God, is the guy that forced, brainwashed (however you want to look at it) those people to stick around while the he set fire to the structure they were in and were burned alive.

As for me thinking that my country is right "All the time" - you don't know me well enough to claim that - absolutely not, America has had some fuck ups and it will have those fuck ups in the future, I'm sure. There are a lot of things that go on in this country which I don't agree with just because it comes out of DC.