What are you doing right now? (besides online & on Lit.)

[Fish_Tales]

Things the Bible Asserts as Fact:

1. If a woman is not a virgin when she is married she should be stoned to death.

2. If a woman and a man divorce then the woman should be stoned to death.

3. If a woman has sex with a man while on her period than she should be stoned to death.

4. If a woman commits adultery than she should be stoned to death.

These are things that are in bold, big black and white letters in the Christian New Testament. I'm going to assume that is your book of faith. If you do not uphold to the Bible in a literal sense then I'm pleased. It means you're not an idiot.

However.

Don't say that intolerance and violence are non-Christian values. Don't say that Christianity is a religion of love and patience. It isn't. I was confirmed Catholic. I went to a Catholic school for a number of years and I've read the Bible as much as any Christian.

The truth of the matter is that the Christian religion is prone to the same failings as any, especially when taken literally. And that's not misrepresenting the religion. It's just reading the book.

I have the same background LI - was even confirmed and went to a Catholic high school., so I've read the book too (or bits of it!). Lots of "going to hell", "clean and unclean", "chosen people" etc. Anyone who takes the Bible literally has a few problems in my view.

My father always used to say that religion and God had one major failing - humans were involved. It may sound like blasphemy, but when he lived in Africa, he could see little difference between the logic of what he was raised (Christian)and the logic of the various tribal religions he came into contact with.

I will keep the rocks in my pocket - otherwise I'll have to stone myself, my family and my friends - not to mention most of the people I come into contact with.

 

[Seranova]

Things the Bible Asserts as Fact:

1. If a woman is not a virgin when she is married she should be stoned to death.

2. If a woman and a man divorce then the woman should be stoned to death.

3. If a woman has sex with a man while on her period than she should be stoned to death.

4. If a woman commits adultery than she should be stoned to death.

These are things that are in bold, big black and white letters in the Christian New Testament. I'm going to assume that is your book of faith. If you do not uphold to the Bible in a literal sense then I'm pleased. It means you're not an idiot.

However.

Don't say that intolerance and violence are non-Christian values. Don't say that Christianity is a religion of love and patience. It isn't. I was confirmed Catholic. I went to a Catholic school for a number of years and I've read the Bible as much as any Christian.

The truth of the matter is that the Christian religion is prone to the same failings as any, especially when taken literally. And that's not misrepresenting the religion. It's just reading the book.

Oh, really?

I'm not even going to justify this level of idiocy with a valid response, despite my great desire to pick apart each and every sentence and prove you completely and utterly wrong. This is not the place, and regardless of anything I say, you will remain blissfully ignorant, all the while spouting everyone else the foolish ones. I only ask that you quit slandering a religion with lies in such a public setting.

What am I doing right now? Shaking my head and getting ready for work.

 

[Light Ice]

No, please, pick me apart. I dare you.

 

[Seranova]

No, please, pick me apart. I dare you.

No. I dare you. Back up your claims, good sir. Let me know when you have found the verses that support them, and then we will talk. Until then, I don't have to prove anything. If this is really so important that you would take the time to slander a religion, then it should be important enough for you to find the evidence that backs such things.

I will not have an internet argument with someone that lacks solid evidence, as they will simply make up what they believe to be fact. That just leads to more stupidity.

 

[zydrate]

Stone me!!!!

 

[Mav Unlimited]

Stone me!!!!

hands her a drink, hiding the little marbles in one hand behind his back

 

[Fish_Tales]

Oh, really?

I'm not even going to justify this level of idiocy with a valid response, despite my great desire to pick apart each and every sentence and prove you completely and utterly wrong. This is not the place, and regardless of anything I say, you will remain blissfully ignorant, all the while spouting everyone else the foolish ones. I only ask that you quit slandering a religion with lies in such a public setting.

What am I doing right now? Shaking my head and getting ready for work.

Hi Sera

Far be it from me to agree with LI!!!! (if I was Captain Hook I could still count on one hand the number of times that's happened). However, I didn't see any slander. I would have thought the real slander is in the way religious groups publicly (most of them) are intolerant and condemn others who are "different".

No one is disputing the right of people to follow different faiths - just as those of "faith" shouldn't always feel the urge to dispute the validity of other people's lifestyles.

Anyway - you are right in one thing - not worth arguing it! Plus I'm in a good mood and don't need it.

 

[zydrate]

hands her a drink, hiding the little marbles in one hand behind his back

Yummy!

 

[Fish_Tales]

No. I dare you. Back up your claims, good sir. Let me know when you have found the verses that support them, and then we will talk. Until then, I don't have to prove anything. If this is really so important that you would take the time to slander a religion, then it should be important enough for you to find the evidence that backs such things.

I will not have an internet argument with someone that lacks solid evidence, as they will simply make up what they believe to be fact. That just leads to more stupidity.

Just a quick google search.....

And he that blasphemeth the name of the LORD, he shall surely be put to death, and all the congregation shall certainly stone him. Leviticus 24:16


Result - I'm stoned

If a damsel that is a virgin be betrothed unto an husband, and a man find her in the city, and lie with her; Then ye shall bring them both out unto the gate of that city, and ye shall stone them with stones that they die; the damsel, because she cried not, being in the city. Deuteronomy 22:23-24

Result - Me stoned and the girl I laid

If any man take a wife, and go in unto her, and hate her ... and say, I took this woman, and when I came to her, I found her not a maid: Then shall the father of the damsel, and her mother, take and bring forth the tokens of the damsel's virginity unto the elders of the city in the gate: And the damsel's father shall say ... these are the tokens of my daughter's virginity. And they shall spread the cloth before the elders of the city. ... But if this thing be true, and the tokens of virginity be not found for the damsel: Then they shall bring out the damsel to the door of her father's house, and the men of her city shall stone her with stones that she die. Deuteronomy 22:13-21

Result - phew, not me stoned, but my wife is

If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother ... Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city ... And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard. And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die. Deuteronomy 21:18-21

Result - shit, my son stoned!

They found a man that gathered sticks upon the sabbath day. ... And the LORD said unto Moses, The man shall be surely put to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones.... And all the congregation brought him without the camp, and stoned him with stones, and he died; as the LORD commanded Moses. Numbers 15:32-56

Result - I knew I shouldn't have worked on the weekend. Stoned

Thou didst blaspheme God and the king. And then carry him out, and stone him, that he may die. 1 Kings 21:10

Result - Christ, lucky I didn't....oh shit, I blasphemed - stoned

So God let them go ahead and do whatever shameful things their hearts desired. As a result, they did vile and degrading things with each other's bodies. Instead of believing what they knew was the truth about God, they deliberately chose to believe lies. So they worshiped the things God made but not the Creator himself, who is to be praised forever. Amen. That is why God abandoned them to their shameful desires. Even the women turned against the natural way to have sex and instead indulged in sex with each other. And the men, instead of having normal sexual relationships with women, burned with lust for each other. Men did shameful things with other men and, as a result, suffered within themselves the penalty they so richly deserved. When they refused to acknowledge God, he abandoned them to their evil minds and let them do things that should never be done. Their lives became full of every kind of wickedness, sin, greed, hate, envy, murder, fighting, deception, malicious behavior, and gossip. They are backstabbers, haters of God, insolent, proud, and boastful. They are forever inventing new ways of sinning and are disobedient to their parents. They refuse to understand, break their promises, and are heartless and unforgiving. They are fully aware of God's death penalty for those who do these things, yet they go right ahead and do them anyway. And, worse yet, they encourage others to do them, too. (Romans 1:24-32 )


Result - just about everyone stoned (except me - I'm already stoned to death above)

 

[Fish_Tales]

Stone me!!!!

I'm out of stones

 

[Nina327]

-giggling-

Religion, my ohhh so favorite topic. I like the fictional book.. weather it comes as the bible, Torra or Koran.. or several other variants. Only thing I can tell my devout friends is to treat it like preachers do. Take what you need from it, what has meaning for you to help you through your life and leave the rest. It has some good lessons on how not to behave and some horrid lessons on humanity's past.

Personally I cannot fathom a Deity as written in those texts. On so many levels. I will only list my largest "Yea fuck that" problem. Omnipotence. God knows all, past present and future. Really? Truly? If thats true it's a fucking twisted cunt. God created his children for some kind of sick joke. No? So tell me then... all those many years ago this being decided to create life full well knowing that his creation would betray him and each other, over and over and over again and that many, many many of his creation would be punished by his hand burning in hell for eternity. While the rest would use their moral currency to purchase eternal reprieve somewhere other than hell. Like I said. I cannot fathom a being that would do that. One thats supposed to love, forgive and have limitless mercy. Freewill of man. Yep, thats the kicker used to dispute my complaint. Fuck that too. Free well, the ultimate scapegoat. Gods ability to say, "Hey I didn't do it, they did." The granting of free will doesn't forgive it its blame from the sick twisted shit that those whom have turned away from it have done. In its name or for any other purpose. That omnipotence is to heavy a weight for anything. If its true, the only question I ever want answered is: How could you create such beauty only to knowingly and willingly torture so much of it.

This is my opinion any my belief. Go ahead, pick it apart... I don't care. You can argue that I'm wrong all you like. All you would be doing is arguing with an opinion.

 

[Light Ice]

Thanks, Fish. In retrospect, though, it was right of him to put the burden of proof on me. Finding specific passages without guidance is a difficult thing given the vast amount of material buried in the Bible. Here are a few of my other favorites about violence.

This is God celebrating the rape of heretics:

Judges 21:10-24 NLT)

So they sent twelve thousand warriors to Jabesh-gilead with orders to kill everyone there, including women and children. "This is what you are to do," they said. "Completely destroy all the males and every woman who is not a virgin." Among the residents of Jabesh-gilead they found four hundred young virgins who had never slept with a man, and they brought them to the camp at Shiloh in the land of Canaan.

The Israelite assembly sent a peace delegation to the little remnant of Benjamin who were living at the rock of Rimmon. Then the men of Benjamin returned to their homes, and the four hundred women of Jabesh-gilead who were spared were given to them as wives. But there were not enough women for all of them. The people felt sorry for Benjamin because the LORD had left this gap in the tribes of Israel. So the Israelite leaders asked, "How can we find wives for the few who remain, since all the women of the tribe of Benjamin are dead? There must be heirs for the survivors so that an entire tribe of Israel will not be lost forever. But we cannot give them our own daughters in marriage because we have sworn with a solemn oath that anyone who does this will fall under God's curse."

Then they thought of the annual festival of the LORD held in Shiloh, between Lebonah and Bethel, along the east side of the road that goes from Bethel to Shechem. They told the men of Benjamin who still needed wives, "Go and hide in the vineyards. When the women of Shiloh come out for their dances, rush out from the vineyards, and each of you can take one of them home to be your wife! And when their fathers and brothers come to us in protest, we will tell them, 'Please be understanding. Let them have your daughters, for we didn't find enough wives for them when we destroyed Jabesh-gilead. And you are not guilty of breaking the vow since you did not give your daughters in marriage to them.'" So the men of Benjamin did as they were told. They kidnapped the women who took part in the celebration and carried them off to the land of their own inheritance. Then they rebuilt their towns and lived in them. So the assembly of Israel departed by tribes and families, and they returned to their own homes.


Another, here, on God permitting you to take slaves:

(Deuteronomy 20:10-14)

As you approach a town to attack it, first offer its people terms for peace. If they accept your terms and open the gates to you, then all the people inside will serve you in forced labor. But if they refuse to make peace and prepare to fight, you must attack the town. When the LORD your God hands it over to you, kill every man in the town. But you may keep for yourselves all the women, children, livestock, and other plunder. You may enjoy the spoils of your enemies that the LORD your God has given you.



Here is God ordering the victims of rape to marry their attackers:

(Deuteronomy 22:28-29 NLT)

If a man is caught in the act of raping a young woman who is not engaged, he must pay fifty pieces of silver to her father. Then he must marry the young woman because he violated her, and he will never be allowed to divorce her.


And this is one where a rape victim is murdered for being a victim of rape:

(Deuteronomy 22:23-24 NAB)

If within the city a man comes upon a maiden who is betrothed, and has relations with her, you shall bring them both out of the gate of the city and there stone them to death: the girl because she did not cry out for help though she was in the city, and the man because he violated his neighbors wife.

Book of Samuel, where God takes a man's innocent child as payment and gives his wives to his neighbor:

(2 Samuel 12:11-14 NAB)

Thus says the Lord: 'I will bring evil upon you out of your own house. I will take your wives [plural] while you live to see it, and will give them to your neighbor. He shall lie with your wives in broad daylight. You have done this deed in secret, but I will bring it about in the presence of all Israel, and with the sun looking down.'
Then David said to Nathan, "I have sinned against the Lord." Nathan answered David: "The Lord on his part has forgiven your sin: you shall not die. But since you have utterly spurned the Lord by this deed, the child born to you must surely die."


Death to Homosexuals:

"If a man lies with a male as with a women, both of them shall be put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their lives." (Leviticus 20:13 NAB)


Death for cursing at parents:

1) If one curses his father or mother, his lamp will go out at the coming of darkness. (Proverbs 20:20 NAB)
2) All who curse their father or mother must be put to death. They are guilty of a capital offense. (Leviticus 20:9 NLT)

Death for fighting with father or mother:

Whoever strikes his father or mother shall be put to death. (Exodus 21:15 NAB)

Death for Ignoring Priests:

Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the judge or of the priest who represents the LORD your God must be put to death. Such evil must be purged from Israel. (Deuteronomy 17:12 NLT)

Death to Women For Having Sex out of Marriage:

A priest's daughter who loses her honor by committing fornication and thereby dishonors her father also, shall be burned to death. (Leviticus 21:9 NAB)

Death to Non Believers:

They entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and soul; and everyone who would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman. (2 Chronicles 15:12-13 NAB)

Killing An Entire Town for One Man's Non-Belief:

Suppose you hear in one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you that some worthless rabble among you have led their fellow citizens astray by encouraging them to worship foreign gods. In such cases, you must examine the facts carefully. If you find it is true and can prove that such a detestable act has occurred among you, you must attack that town and completely destroy all its inhabitants, as well as all the livestock. Then you must pile all the plunder in the middle of the street and burn it. Put the entire town to the torch as a burnt offering to the LORD your God. That town must remain a ruin forever; it may never be rebuilt. Keep none of the plunder that has been set apart for destruction. Then the LORD will turn from his fierce anger and be merciful to you. He will have compassion on you and make you a great nation, just as he solemnly promised your ancestors. "The LORD your God will be merciful only if you obey him and keep all the commands I am giving you today, doing what is pleasing to him." (Deuteronomy 13:13-19 NLT)


Murdering Women Who Aren't Virgins When Married:

But if this charge is true (that she wasn't a virgin on her wedding night), and evidence of the girls virginity is not found, they shall bring the girl to the entrance of her fathers house and there her townsman shall stone her to death, because she committed a crime against Israel by her unchasteness in her father's house. Thus shall you purge the evil from your midst. (Deuteronomy 22:20-21 NAB)


Death for Blasphemy:

One day a man who had an Israelite mother and an Egyptian father got into a fight with one of the Israelite men. During the fight, this son of an Israelite woman blasphemed the LORD's name. So the man was brought to Moses for judgment. His mother's name was Shelomith. She was the daughter of Dibri of the tribe of Dan. They put the man in custody until the LORD's will in the matter should become clear. Then the LORD said to Moses, "Take the blasphemer outside the camp, and tell all those who heard him to lay their hands on his head. Then let the entire community stone him to death. Say to the people of Israel: Those who blaspheme God will suffer the consequences of their guilt and be punished. Anyone who blasphemes the LORD's name must be stoned to death by the whole community of Israel. Any Israelite or foreigner among you who blasphemes the LORD's name will surely die. (Leviticus 24:10-16 NLT)


A really choice bit:

From there Elisha went up to Bethel. While he was on his way, some small boys came out of the city and jeered at him. "Go up baldhead," they shouted, "go up baldhead!" The prophet turned and saw them, and he cursed them in the name of the Lord. Then two shebears came out of the woods and tore forty two of the children to pieces. (2 Kings 2:23-24 NAB)


Killing for whatever reason:

The ark of God was placed on a new cart and taken away from the house of Abinadab on the hill. Uzzah and Ahio, sons of Abinadab guided the cart, with Ahio walking before it, while David and all the Israelites made merry before the Lord with all their strength, with singing and with citharas, harps, tambourines, sistrums, and cymbals.
When they came to the threshing floor of Nodan, Uzzah reached out his hand to the ark of God to steady it, for the oxen were making it tip. But the Lord was angry with Uzzah; God struck him on that spot, and he died there before God. (2 Samuel 6:3-7 NAB)

 

[Light Ice]

The only point that I was attempting to make is that Christians tend to look past most of the evil shit in the Bible. For some reason, which I'm not going to postulate on right now, they are really hung up on the unholiness of homosexuality.

 

[Vail_Indigo]

It is hard to argue that Yaweh isn't a bloodthirsty god.

 

[Vail_Indigo]

The only point that I was attempting to make is that Christians tend to look past most of the evil shit in the Bible. For some reason, which I'm not going to postulate on right now, they are really hung up on the unholiness of homosexuality.

What I have always found amusing is how you can get vast numbers of christians to lose their minds over homosexuals, but seem pretty ok with the amount of poverty in the world (or, if not 'ok', then certainly passive).
While I haven't gone through and counted, I'm pretty sure jesus talks more about helping people who need help than condemning homosexuality.

 

[Light Ice]

What I have always found amusing is how you can get vast numbers of christians to lose their minds over homosexuals, but seem pretty ok with the amount of poverty in the world (or, if not 'ok', then certainly passive).
While I haven't gone through and counted, I'm pretty sure jesus talks more about helping people who need help than condemning homosexuality.

Actually, that's an astute point, Vail. It should be noted that Jesus, in the Gospels, does not mention homosexuality. Ever. He also does not mention the Virgin Birth, Original Sin, etc etc etc.

Curious oversight for the son of God, all things considered, given what a big deal it is in some points of the Bible.

Now, I could be openly contentious and point out the fact that the Bible is essentially a 2,000 year old version of Wikipedia. We've a very limited idea on what it asserted to be thousands of authors and editors; translating, editing, adding, and deleting text as they saw fit.

But I wouldn't do that.

Not me.

Not ever.

 

[Vail_Indigo]

Actually, that's an astute point, Vail. It should be noted that Jesus, in the Gospels, does not mention homosexuality. Ever. He also does not mention the Virgin Birth, Original Sin, etc etc etc.

Curious oversight for the son of God, all things considered, given what a big deal it is in some points of the Bible.

Now, I could be openly contentious and point out the fact that the Bible is essentially a 2,000 year old version of Wikipedia. We've a very limited idea on what it asserted to be thousands of authors and editors; translating, editing, adding, and deleting text as they saw fit.

But I wouldn't do that.

Not me.

Not ever.

Also, don't point out that the lack of evidence, outside of the bible, that Jesus actually existed is impressive in its absence.
Oh, and that translations like 'young unwed women' to 'virgin' are pretty common.

So, no, you shouldn't point either of those things out.

 

[Fish_Tales]

What I have always found amusing is how you can get vast numbers of christians to lose their minds over homosexuals, but seem pretty ok with the amount of poverty in the world (or, if not 'ok', then certainly passive).
While I haven't gone through and counted, I'm pretty sure jesus talks more about helping people who need help than condemning homosexuality.

Not that I'm a bible scholar, but I don't ever remember him condemning homosexuality, so it is funny how they focus so much on it...

I do remember him saying a lot of things about not judging people (even prostitutes ), about sharing if people are poor, about turning the other cheek and about that rich guys would struggle to get into heaven, but Sister Mary Frances never told me about him condemning homosexuals in school.

Hey - you're not telling me that men just made that bit up themselves are you? Or that they place greater significance on it than Jesus did?

**walks away - I can't believe they would just make that stuff up to suit themselves.....**

 

[Vail_Indigo]

Not that I'm a bible scholar, but I don't ever remember him condemning homosexuality, so it is funny how they focus so much on it...

I do remember him saying a lot of things about not judging people (even prostitutes ), about sharing if people are poor, about turning the other cheek and about that rich guys would struggle to get into heaven, but Sister Mary Frances never told me about him condemning homosexuals in school.

Hey - you're not telling me that men just made that bit up themselves are you? Or that they place greater significance on it than Jesus did?

**walks away - I can't believe they would just make that stuff up to suit themselves.....**

And don't forget that there were a whole lot of other books in the bible that just got tossed away by the religious authorities because they proved to be inconvenient to the powers that be.

 

[Light Ice]

But, to stay to the point, there is one thing that Christians absolutely cannot do without lying outright.

They cannot pretend that violence, intolerance, and blood thirsty madness is NOT in the Bible.

 

[zydrate]

But, to stay to the point, there is one thing that Christians absolutely cannot do without lying outright.

They cannot pretend that violence, intolerance, and blood thirsty madness is NOT in the Bible.

And dancing... Dancing is in the bible.... according to Footloose... nods

 

[Vail_Indigo]

What am I doing right now?
Coming up with ways to make little Zy pay for getting Kenny Loggins stuck in my head

 

[zydrate]

What am I doing right now?
Coming up with ways to make little Zy pay for getting Kenny Loggins stuck in my head

hides

 

[Vail_Indigo]

hides

Oh little miss, you are SO in the danger zone

 

[zydrate]

Oh little miss, you are SO in the danger zone

Highway to the danger zone....