Well, it's here: First federal prosecution for a text story posted on the 'net.

Pure

Fiel a Verdad
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Note this is not a 'porn' prosecution (which is usually about pictures). This is an *obscenity* prosecution, about socially unacceptable text.

Any Litizens worried?

Donora writer faces obscenity trial

http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/pittsburghtrib/search/s_476139.html


By Jason Cato
TRIBUNE-REVIEW
Sunday, October 22, 2006


Two-year-old "Mina" was kidnapped and sexually molested. "Katie," 6, met the same fate but also was tortured.

Eight other children suffered in fictitious stories penned by Karen Fletcher, 54, of Donora, Washington County, who faces rare federal charges of transporting obscene matters over the Internet. It's the first such case -- text only, with no images -- brought in decades, observers say, and the first ever in Western Pennsylvania.

The question to be decided in federal court in Pittsburgh: Is this material obscene?

U.S. Attorney Mary Beth Buchanan says it is. First Amendment advocates are howling that this is yet another example of the government trying to protect Americans from themselves.


"Doesn't this smack as censorship?" asked Warner Mariani, the Downtown lawyer defending Fletcher. "It's trying to limit what you think and write and distribute. What's the next step? Do the feds start going into libraries and taking out books?"

Mariani, a member of the First Amendment Lawyers Association, said censorship chills free speech.

Buchanan counters that obscenity is not free speech.

"Obscene material is not protected by the First Amendment, and the law is clear on that," Buchanan said. "This is extremely egregious and is as patently offensive as material possibly could be. I cannot imagine material more offensive than the material in the case of Karen Fletcher."

Fletcher told FBI agents that she posted "sexually explicit stories about adults having sex with children" on a fantasy Web site, according to court papers. Excerpts of the stories were available for free, but subscribers paid $10 a month to access the complete stories.

The U.S. Supreme Court first addressed obscenity in 1957, and the court said obscene materials were not protected speech. The case involved the conviction of New York publisher Samuel Roth on federal charges of transmitting obscene matters through the U.S. mail. He was sentenced to three years in prison, which he served in Lewisburg, Union County. He was convicted in state courts in Pennsylvania and New York for selling James Joyce's "Ulysses" as well as "Blank and Madonna" by Boccaccio and "Anecdota Americana."

In the Roth case, the Supreme Court defined obscenity as anything the average person using community standards would find appeals to "prurient interests" and is "utterly without redeeming social importance."

But that definition proved inadequate.

In 1964, Supreme Court Justice Potter Stewart found it difficult to define obscenity, but said, "I know it when I see it."

"And later Stewart concluded he really didn't know it when he sees it," said Robert Corn-Revere, a First Amendment lawyer in Washington who used to serve as chief counsel to the Federal Communications Commission.

Courts now use the "Miller Test" to determine whether material is obscene. A benchmark 1973 Supreme Court ruling issued in the case of Miller v. California set new standards and attempted to clarify what is and isn't legally obscene.

For Fletcher to be convicted, a jury would have to find:


the average person, applying contemporary community standards, would find the work as a whole appeals to prurient interest;

the descriptions of sexual conduct are patently offensive;

the work as a whole lacks serious literary, artistic, political or scientific value.
Buchanan sees this case as a slam-dunk.

"I do not believe the citizens of Western Pennsylvania would find that this conduct is not obscene," she said. "I think they will (find Fletcher guilty), or I wouldn't have brought the case."

A special Department of Justice prosecutor from Washington will assist in the case, as often happens in rarely prosecuted cases. Transmitting obscene matters was the lead charge in just 59 cases nationwide from 1995 to 2005, according to Department of Justice statistics.

Mariani said plenty of First Amendment lawyers across the country are lined up to help defend Fletcher.

"This isn't Don Quixote going against a windmill," Mariani said. "They can bring their muscle from D.C., but I'm going to bring mine, too. This is an important case."

The issue isn't defending the contents of Fletcher's writings, but her right to write them, said Corn-Revere.

"It's not a matter of defending the words or ideas. It's a matter of defending that we live in a free society," he said. "It's defending her right to think in a different way."

Atlanta lawyer and former prosecutor George M. Weaver, author of the "Handbook on Prosecution of Obscenity Cases," called that argument a red herring.

"Any society serious about protecting itself must control some categories of explicit speech. You can't just allow anything," Weaver said. "If we're going to wring our hands over prosecuting child pornography ... then we're showing a lack of courage when it comes to defending ourselves against things that are a definite threat to society."

Mariani and others see this case eventually making its way to the Supreme Court -- regardless of who wins in Pittsburgh.

"The loser isn't going to go away," Mariani said.

And that's because of what's riding on the outcome, Corn-Revere said.

"This is a difficult area, and this is a rare case that is testing the boundaries," he said.



Jason Cato can be reached at jcato@tribweb.com or 412-320-7840.
 
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I can tell you that Laurel is worried. Laurel will not allow Literotica stories to contain any sub 18-year-old characters. This last may have annoyed some Litizens who wanted to write about high school sex, but they are not now sweating going to court.
 
America always claim to be the "home of the free". However, censorship is a just a part of the purtian culture that founded the country.

I do think stories about raping and killing two year olds is sick and wrong. The idea of someone writing about it or reading it for erotic pleasures bothers me deeply. The case does not surprise me. I don't think any culture finds that reading or writing the contents of the stories in question as socially acceptable. Even the early Greek pederasty waited for them to be adolescents. Whether it is a slippery legal slope to further censorship...well...we've been playing with that issue for decades.
 
the average person, applying contemporary community standards, would find the work as a whole appeals to prurient interest;

Nope, pre-pubescent rape/snuff stories don't appeal to "prurient interests," at least not as I understand the term. It may appeal to "psychotic" or "pathological" interests, but "prurient" is far to mild and normal to apply.

the descriptions of sexual conduct are patently offensive;

Yep, no question at all on this point -- except for the possible legalistic quibble over whether Rape and Murder are sexual behavior or some other classification of behavior.

the work as a whole lacks serious literary, artistic, political or scientific value.

Can't say without reading the specific stories involved. They certainly have "political value" as an easy target for the tip of the censorship wedge, but I doubt that's what the Court meant.

I make that one point for aquittal, one for Conviction, and one that could go either way. However the tests are a Boolean AND statement and any one in favor of acquittal requires acquittal.
 
Lady A//I do think stories about raping and killing two year olds is sick and wrong//

P: How about stories about raping and killing twenty two year olds?

(Do you mean it's wrong to write or post or read; or all of the above, such stories.)

I don't doubt the stories are 'offensive' by some def. But I can see (confining myself to sexualized contexts) a progression from murderous violence to kids, to murderous violence, to violence--- and then you're at SM stories.

In any case, as RR says, Laurel's policy of prudence was well taken and correctly identified the most vulnerable point of legal action.
 
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Scary. Very scary.

But then again, I'm a free speech fanatic. Because I'm convinced the alternative is always worse.

Can't really say anything more. I wouldn't feel right commenting on US laws, since I'm not a US citizen.
 
The worry is if they can ban anything that's found to be obscene. And who decides what's obscene and what's not?
 
human_male said:
The worry is if they can ban anything that's found to be obscene. And who decides what's obscene and what's not?

Well, the good guys of course. Those motivated by the highest standards of ethics and with the greatest good for society in mind.

At least that's what the censors will claim. ;)
 
rgraham666 said:
Well, the good guys of course. Those motivated by the highest standards of ethics and with the greatest good for society in mind.

At least that's what the censors will claim. ;)

Well that's alright then. Just as long as it's not some religious do-gooder with extreme moral sensibilities, totally out of touch with the population at large. But who nevertheless believes anyone who doesn't have the same moral standards is flat out in the wrong, and is dertermined to make everyone see things their way whether they like it or not.
 
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From The Article said:
"It's not a matter of defending the words or ideas. It's a matter of defending that we live in a free society," he said. "It's defending her right to think in a different way."

Atlanta lawyer and former prosecutor George M. Weaver, author of the "Handbook on Prosecution of Obscenity Cases," called that argument a red herring.

"Any society serious about protecting itself must control some categories of explicit speech. You can't just allow anything," Weaver said. "If we're going to wring our hands over prosecuting child pornography ... then we're showing a lack of courage when it comes to defending ourselves against things that are a definite threat to society."
No, mr Weaver. YOURS is a red herring argument, you utter nimrod. By the book fallacious. Child pornography is a crime against a person, a living and breathing human being - the abused child.

Child abuse fiction, however disgusting and tasteless, is a "crime" against your sense of what's proper.

To equal them is a mockery to every victim of child rape. And that makes you just as bad as the one you want to have prosecuted.
 
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Okay, on the subject of what this woman was writing.... ick.

But the rest of it just makes me my skin crawl. It's okay for all those horror novelists and true crime writers to go into graphic details of such things, but if this case goes against her, they'll use it as a starting point to start "sanitizing" the Internet. How long are they going to leave us alone?

Think about it- Incest is illegal, and most of the "normal" *spitting out the word there* population would find it disgusting. Same for Nonconsent/Reluctance, a great deal of Erotic Horror, probably a chunk of BDSM.

Those are the reasonable places to start, and from there, they can trickle down into Gay Male, Lesbian, Trans and CD, and NonHuman categories. Gods only know what they'll do with Fetish...

-.- It's 8.07 in the morning and I'm already wishing I were drinking. Blarg.
 
rgraham666 said:
Well, the good guys of course. Those motivated by the highest standards of ethics and with the greatest good for society in mind.

At least that's what the censors will claim. ;)


Another case of the tail wagging the dog. The moral majority? What majority? Our court system seems to allow a very small percentage of the population dictate what we live by. If there were a referendum about prayer in school, the yeses would outnumber the nos by a huge majority. So why are there not prayers in schools?

Hypocrites: "Those motivated by the highest standards of ethics and with the greatest good for society in mind." reminded me of that.
 
Agree with FTF, the idea of the stories themselves give me the heebie-jeebies. However, her story hurts no-one in themselves and we may as well prosecute Stephen King for murder.

I find it fascinatuing that the last prosecution under that law was for distributing Ulysses. Okay, so that book in itself is a crime against literature, but it shows that cultures cannot be trusted to judge what's 'proper'.

The Earl
 
FallingToFly said:
Okay, on the subject of what this woman was writing.... ick.

But the rest of it just makes me my skin crawl. It's okay for all those horror novelists and true crime writers to go into graphic details of such things, but if this case goes against her, they'll use it as a starting point to start "sanitizing" the Internet. How long are they going to leave us alone?

Think about it- Incest is illegal, and most of the "normal" *spitting out the word there* population would find it disgusting. Same for Nonconsent/Reluctance, a great deal of Erotic Horror, probably a chunk of BDSM.

Those are the reasonable places to start, and from there, they can trickle down into Gay Male, Lesbian, Trans and CD, and NonHuman categories. Gods only know what they'll do with Fetish...

-.- It's 8.07 in the morning and I'm already wishing I were drinking. Blarg.
So that means that the only category which is not obscene will be Loving Wives. :eek:
 
Zeb_Carter said:
So that means that the only category which is not obscene will be Loving Wives. :eek:
Not the way that Lit authors interpret that tag. :cool:
 
i do think, however, that sanitized sex (in porn) is here to stay. the industry is simply too big. but it could be sequestered: for instance it's proposed that every adult site have a domain name of ".xxx" [instead of '.com'] then it could be sealed off from kids, in theory.

even gay sanitized sex (in porn) probably canNOT be stopped.

(what is sex without the whips and chains???)
 
Pure said:
i do think, however, that sanitized sex (in porn) is here to stay. the industry is simply too big. but it could be sequestered: for instance it's proposed that every adult site have a domain name of ".xxx" [instead of '.com'] then it could be sealed off from kids, in theory.

even gay sanitized sex (in porn) probably canNOT be stopped.

(what is sex without the whips and chains???)
If you ask a Republican - Normal

If you ask a Democrat - Kinky
 
Liar said:
No, mr Weaver. YOURS is a red herring argument, you utter nimrod. By the book fallacious. Child pornography is a crime against a person, a living and breathing human being - the abused child.

Child abuse fiction, however disgusting and tasteless, is a "crime" against your sense of what's proper.

To equal them is a mockery to every victim of child rape. And that makes you just as bad as the one you want to have prosecuted.

I love you. :heart:

:cathappy:
 
P: (what is sex without the whips and chains???)


Zeb: If you ask a Republican - Normal

Now, now, zeb. It aint the Dems that got Hustler going. I happen to think Republicans are often quite kinky; the men long to get pegged, and the women crave sexual humiliation (doesn't go together, does it? that's where the Dems and hoes come in.)
 
Actually, I think this prosecution is a *good* thing for the first ammendment for one simple reason: I think if the person is convicted, the conviction will be ultimately overturned by the supreme court.

In particular, Justice Scalia might be a vote in favor of the story being protected under freedom of the press. He, after all, not only voted in favor of the flag burning decision, he actually wrote it.

If Scalia (and his sock puppet, Thomas) vote in favor of a decision that upholds the work as protected under freedom of the press, it would be relatively easy to find three other votes.

If this case goes to the supreme court and if the conviction is struck down, it would be a major victory for freedom of expression.
 
Pure said:
P: (what is sex without the whips and chains???)


Zeb: If you ask a Republican - Normal

Now, now, zeb. It aint the Dems that got Hustler going. I happen to think Republicans are often quite kinky; the men long to get pegged, and the women crave sexual humiliation (doesn't go together, does it? that's where the Dems and hoes come in.)
You mis-understood my statement?!? :confused:
 
hi zeb,

i asked, 'what is sex w/o whips and chains?' and you said a Republican would answer, 'normal.' i read this as meaning that a Republican says, 'normal sex is w/o whips and chains.' which is what i responded to. but if i misread you, say it.

in any case, it was a joke. the serious point being that the effort to pare away the 'perversions' and stick to 'good clean stuff', will probably fail. the appeal to 'prurient interest' sounds interesting on paper, but somehow means a sexual turn on that isn't quite proper and the way it should be. (or maybe just any sexual turn on.) if you read of fucking and get turned on, that's ok, but if you read a story about a rape and get turned on, that's 'prurient.'

{from lectlaw.com:
PRURIENT INTEREST - A morbid, degrading and unhealthy interest in sex, as distinguished from a mere candid interest in sex. }

as someone remarked Ulysses is not exactly the height of kink. what is that old joke, "Is sex dirty?" "Only if you do it right."
 
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*yawn*

You gotta love the hypocricy.

Take out the sex and this is 'art'.

That's right, if it weren't for the sex which is a requirment for the story to be 'obscene'... then it's okay.

So writing about kidnapping, torturing, and killing two-years old is A-OHTAY!

I lllluvvvv hypocricy.
 
Although I do have to wonder about people...

Just stick the word God in every chapter and you're good to go.
 
I have never read any of the stories and am quite sure I never will. From the description, I find them disgusting. However, I find the idea of censorship to be even more disgusting.

I wonder if it is true that if the stories just involved abduction and torture and murder, they would be acceptable, but the rape makes them not acceptable.

By the way, Skip, if there were a referundum to determine whether or not VOLUNTARY prayer would be acceptable in schools, most people would vote yes. However, they would vote against COERCED prayer in school. Some persons would claim that prayer has been banned from schools. That's nonsense. What is banned is children being coerced into praying by an authority figure, such as the teacher or principal.
 
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