Weak endings

[AllardChardon]

XssVe,

I forgot to tell you I went looking for your posted pictures and I could not find them. If you know where they are, find them and forward the link to me at my personal message center.

Allard

 

[xssve]

Xssve,

Blazing Saddles! Funny you should mention that film as my son, Nick, is downstairs right now watching it. That is HEDLEY!!

Mel Brooks can do just about what he wants and get away with it. I wish he was my rich uncle but then my mother is not Jewish so that wouldn't work. Unless I could fake being related to his lovely wife, Anne Bancroft, better known as Mrs. Robinson, then I might have a chance.

Seriously, voice is different for comics and would be one of first and third person interacting back and forth. That 'fourth wall' idea works too especially with comedy. Are your comics funny or are your funnies comic, either way?

Allard

"Now I don't have to tell you good folks what's been happening in our beloved little town. Sheriff murdered, crops burned, stores looted, people stampeded, and cattle raped. The time has come to act, and act fast. I'm leaving."

Yeah, Mel's a genius, and Anne is a babe.

I'm still trying to figure out the best approach to this voice issue - I guess the upside is that most readers will probobly never notice unless I really mess things up - they'll be too busy looking at the pictures anyway with any luck.

The thing about comics and porn is that straight porn doesnt really work - and when I say porn, I mean geared towards a predominantly male audience.

There are just too many close substitutes, photographic porn for example, and it seems like a kind of misuse of the medium, which is essentially a storytelling medium. Incest, BDSM, and other violent sexual fantasies are very common in the medium, which I suspect works largely to raise the level of stimulus in the adolescent brain - it's always an option, but I'm looking for something a bit more nuanced.

You risk losing readers otherwise, if you focus too much on romance, unless you're targeting a female audience, and that's a much smaller demographic where comix are concerned - they are the largest consumers of Manga, which is relativley softcore erotica for the most part, and really, represents a whole different storytelling dynamic, and even a seperate market than traditional Euro-American comics - they tend to be more about social interaction and coming of age themes are practically de rigueur - i.e., the sort of things you pretty much expect teenage girls to be interested in, and it works the same way in the mecha titles geared for boys, it' almost always about coming of age, becoming a man while learnign to work with a team, to be reliable, etc., and the story lines tend to be cyclic - i.e., once the boy has become a man, he becomes mentor for the next hothead.

The pacing tends towards long conversations, internal and external, i.e., social introspection and extroversion, punctuated by short bursts of extreme activity - it's called decompression in comics, and the stripped down visual stylization of Manga allows the artist to draw things out over more pages.

Not too sure how the cyclical theme works in more girl oriented stuff, Sailor Moon etc., I haven't read enough of it - being the pervert I am, I tend to gravitate towards the more graphic titles, Demon Beast Invasion, etc., which are extremely pornographic - but even in those, there are social issues addressed: embarrasment and shame, the sort of issues that teenagers just becomeing sexually active face in the day to day world that separates it from your garden variety porn.

But, to answer your question, yes, I do believe humor is a valuable tool in this medium in particular - as I say, just straight sex, no matter how graphic, doesn't really a story make - I can't remember if it was in a thread in here or somewhere else where the short story was compared to a joke - i.e., and intro, a setup and a punchline - which also goes to the issue of how to end a story. it's a another possible variation - a lot of Hitchcocks short fiction editorial picks work that way, and it's a very common device in his short pieces in Alfred Hitchock Presents, etc.

It's a very natural form for graphic storytelling, and it can keep a heavy storyline from becoming overwrought - it breaks the tension, and like all comedy, a matter of timing - I try to get at least one joke into every story, even if it's a visual pun or something, and I'm sure I picked that up from Hitchcock.

I'll bump that thread for you, the fist batch is a bit embarrasing, I'm close to the bottom of the heap among the rest of the artists in there - Irezumi is particularly good in terms of storytelling, and I can't even touch the ladies in terms of pinups, but I think I've turned a corner on anatomy and gesture - there's a short, two page story too, I'll see if I can find it.

 

[xssve]

Seems most of my links aren't working anymore, it'll be easier to just start over. I've sort of been waiting to collect a new pile of material, I've been going heavy on the studies/sketching, and have very few new finished peices to post - meantime, here's the two pager, we need more contests like this.

http://forum.literotica.com/showthread.php?t=534127

 

[AllardChardon]

I love reading your posts. They are so informative about things I have no knowledge of. But comedy, now that I will happily discuss.

Let's stay with Mel Brooks for a moment. He is hugely popular in his lifetime and will be long after he is gone. My family have all his great movies and watch them all the time. I want to be Lily. "He is such a nice guy", I love Madeline Kahn in every thing she did. I sorely miss her humor and delivery. If only you could get that kind of delivery on the written page. Alas, it is not possible.

So comedy and humor must be carefully written and for examples of that go back to the crazy comedies of the thirties. Almost everything Cary Grant did was a comedy back them and there is lots to choose from. Screwball comedies is the genre. I highly recommend it for writers of comedy.

I think humor will outlast everything else. Look at George Carlin. Got to have a sense of humor. So maybe you could make your voice, the narrator, have a really funny sense of humor and you could throw your characters into dilemnas bordering on humor like the Coen Brothers in Raising Arizona. Humor would set your work apart from the others. Maybe. Are there other comedic erotica comic writers already doing this? I know nothing.

Unfortunately, humor is so subjective. I wrote several humorous passages in my book and some of my friends did not find them funny at all. I will try them out on you once I edit them a bit more and see what you think.

Until then, keep writing and sketching,
Allard

 

[xssve]

Yes, dying is easy, comedy is hard.

The primary goal, in most storytelling, is suspension of disbelief - the idea being, of course, to immerse the reader in the story so completely that it blurs the line between reality and fantasy in the readers mind.

Anything that interrupts this "spell" runs the risk of confusing the reader, kicking them out of the story and causing them to realize they're reading a book, or watching a movie, whatever. Turgid prose, clunky dialogue, huge plot holes, bad acting, poor illustration, etc., etc., all constitute stumbling blocks to generating the suspension of disbelief.

Comedy, even well done, raises certain difficulties here - if too broad, the entire piece becomes satire, which is foine if that's what you're trying to achieve - Mel Brooks, for example, is not asking you to believe if the story is plausible, even in his movies that aren;t outright satire, The Producers for example, which skirts the edge, he's just trying to get a laugh, and the story is more or less a setup, a metajoke to hang the smaller jokes from.

This, I think, generates a sense of detachment in the reader/viewer, it's harder to care about the characters, because it's harder to see them as real people, to identify, sympathize, and empathize with, rather than the satyrical sterotypes they are representing. Thus, it can become an obstacle to characterization if you're trying to be halfway serious.

Hellers Catch 22 by contrast is a serious work, reality as farce, and the absurdity serves to heighten the poigniancy, the madness, the horror - it only threatens to disrupt the suspension of disbelief mainly during the scene changes, from Whatley's whore to Major Major Major Majors skulking, but Heller draws you right back in, and the breaks establish a rythm, and he succeeds in delivering a potent and serious work in the end, IMO.

Jim Carey skirts the line between the two, his movies are generally meant to be taken at least partially seriously, Cable Guy for instance, while his antics tend to push the envelope between dramady and outright farce - it's not an uncommon approach, attempted to greater or lesser success by a number of comics, Eddie Murphy, etc.

So, basically all in the timing and approach. I generally stick to visual jokes, breaking the fourth wall with a double take maybe, if the material calls for it, but in a literary sense, I try to focus on dialogue, I love banter, I'm a big fan of Bruce Willis movies because he's such a natural at banter - Bandits is one of my favorite movies to date in the vein - and when combined with the law of uninintended consequences in creating absurd situations alá Coen Brothers, or even Dostoyevsky, you can generate a lot of comedic energy while still maintaining a plausible storyline and believable characters.

I'm so glad you find me informative, I get enthusiastic about things and rapidly cross the line into pedantry, it's a character flaw of mine.

Ciao.

 

[AllardChardon]

XssVe,

You are so right on that. Once comedy goes over a certain line, the audience is numb to it from then on. And Mel is totally a one-two punch kind of guy who will set up an entire scene just for the punchline. Like in Blazing Saddles when they are thinking of crucifying the prisoner and Hedley says "Too Christian" or when Lonestar says "Just what we need, a Druish Princess." "Just plain Yogurt" etc, I could go on for hours. He comes up with his punchline first and then creates the scene to launch it. There are screenwriters that start at the end and work backwards. It is the same thing.

When I wrote my novel, I had no outline or clue where the story was going. Every day Iwould sit at the computer and the plot unfolded by itself. A couple of chapters were naturally humorous and those parts developed easily, without contrivance.

When rewriting the incredibly important first chapter for the second time, I tried to add humor. This is where the problem began. What would be funny enough to add and still enhance the first chapter while preparing the reader for more offcolor humor to come. I tried more offcolor humor and now I wonder if it works or not. I will soon find out from the Dr.

But once again, humor is so subjective. I love the English with their whoopie cushion kind of humor, ribald and racy and yet just plain silly, ala Monty Python and some other British TV shows that I have seen over the years. Other people do not necessarily see the humor.

Peter Sellers in "The Party" was priceless, but that is physical comedy at its best. Sellers needing to piss with the bathrooms all full up and the stream flowing through the house making gurgling water sounds to add to his discomfort, truly genius stuff. On paper, it would be a little harder to pull off.

So I will keep studying the masters of comedy and try to fit little snippets of humor in here or there for comedic pause and then back to the story.

I see what you mean about the narrator being funny. In a comic book, that would not really work. Funny situations with funny pratfalls and the like, the old slipping on a banana trick revised, would work though. You have the pictures to make it work unlike a novel that must show the physical humor in words only.

Suspension of disbelief. I don't think I have ever heard that before but that nails it perfectly. I tired to make my story very believable which is necessary in historical fiction. Finding the humor was a little harder because it had to fit the time and place. Great Salt Lake City, Utah Territory, 1857. I would give examples here but I want to wait until you read the chapter to see if the humor works.

What is a typical word count for a comic book? Mine is 107,000.

 

[xssve]

Haha, I live in the middle of Mormon territory, and while they're nice people and generally good natured, I wouldn't say they're known for their ribald sense of humor. I'm more at home among Northern Midwesterners, Swedes and Norwegians, Minnesota, Wisconson, etc., they're a little earthier. My Grandfather (French Canadian) was a riot.

Peter Sellers was genius, Alan Arkin too, and I'm a huge Marx Bothers fan.

Mae West might make a good model for a character in a historical novel, she combined a lot of different shticks in one: part streetwalker, part Madame, part good old fashioned libidinous wench, etc., it's a whole attitude you just don't see much anymore, a refreshing counterpoint to an uptight situation.

 

[AllardChardon]

Yes, Utah and Brigham Young were the perfect uptight background material I needed to front my undercover high class parlor house.

My main character, Gigi, is half French Canadian, her father was Gerard Dumonte, a French Canadian fur trapper from St. Louis, of course. Her mother is the illegitimate daughter of the Comte de Artois, Louis XVI's brother, who later becomes Charles the X of France once Naplolean is deafeted and the monarchy is restored. Gigi's mother, a courtesan of the Comte's, fled the Reign of Terror to immigrate to New Orleans where Gigi was born. Historical novels are so much fun.

The Mormons themselves are not the focus of my humor. I bash the Catholics a lot worse with little pokes and jabs, easily accomplished because Gigi is Catholic, of course. I figure it is safer to bash Catholics than Mormons. The humor is mostly physical stuff that happens to certain individuals, who deserve the humiliation. We are glad to see them punished, sort of.

Gigi is a combination of Mae West, Miss Kitty on Gunsmoke and all the rest of the brave women who dared to move west, but with the French accent and very high sex drive to make the story work. I love her. She is me. Only better.

 

[xssve]

Cool. I'd love to do historical fiction, though I find the research daunting at times, even google has it's limits when it comes to specific visual references.

I'm sort of leaning towards SF where I can make it up as I go.

 

[Weird Harold]

Cool. I'd love to do historical fiction, though I find the research daunting at times, even google has it's limits when it comes to specific visual references.

I'm sort of leaning towards SF where I can make it up as I go.

Speaking of historical research and historical fiction, I'd like to return briefly to the original subject, Daughter of Fortune by Isabel Allende.

I finally "finished" the book -- by resorting to skimming, I just couldn't take reading it closely -- and found the whole book to be a 21st century fantasy disguised as historical fiction. Subracting 150 years from the present doesn't make your story historical.

The real historical events are accurately placed, but the main characters all had 21st century sensibilities and reactions in a 19th century stage setting. IMHO, not a good read at all.

However, I did think the ending fit well with general theme of the book -- it was probably the best part of the book.

At the same time as I checked out Daughter of Fortune, I also checked out Dianna Gabaldon's latest Lord John Grey book -- a collection of one short story and two novelas based on a secondary character from her popular Outlander series.

Gabaldon writes "historical fiction" based on 18th century Scotland, England, and America. The Outlander series is technically Science Fiction or Fantasy because the essential premise is the existance of Time Travel portals, although it is generally marketed as Romance. I really enjoy the Outlander series because it is historically accurate as far as I've ever been able to research but it also contrasts a late 20th century heroine with mid-18th century Scottish Clan politics. The contrast between modern and historical sensibilites is probably the most educational part of her historical research and why I highly recommend the series to any fan of historical fiction or "alternate history" fiction (although DG is careful to avoid her time traveling character changing history even when she tries to change history.

I don't believe the Outlander series will ever make Oprah's Book Club list (because it is anything but "politically correct,") but books three four, and five have made the New York Times Bestseller list (and there is a sixth written but I have no idea what it's status in the US.)

PS: Dianna Gabaldon credits a long list of peopel with assisting her research into 18th century locations and events. I can't imagine researching the level of detail she includes without an army of friends and/or assistants.

 

[xssve]

Actually this wasnt the original topic, but we're all over the map here in terms of general concerns anyway. Assuming that historical attitudes are no different than modern ones is a common mistake - the trend recently seems to be to skip research altogether and make it a modern story in a historical setting, alá Knight's Tale, where they dance to David Bowie, and Joust to the sound of Queen.

I confess, most of what I would call my "historical research" consists of reading other peoples novels - either written during the period or by better researchers - it's tough to find history books that really deal with attitudes.

I like Gary Jennings, he sort of condenses a lot of history in such a way that it's probobly wildly innacurate, but very entertaining.

I just finished Morgan Llywelyn's Druids, and I'm in the middle of Ramon Jimenez's Ceasar Against the Celts, which is a non-fictional account of the same time period and events - pure coincidence that I happened to find these two books simultaneously, I was just looking for something to read, but I could probobly pull off a short historical piece set in this period without offending too many people.

Of course, those who live in these places tend to be able to spot errors right away, I think if you're really serious, it helps to have a local informant to help keep you from making major boo-boo's.

I'll check out Dianna Gabaldon, I think a lot of people get into historical fiction by starting with geneology research, local historical groups, etc.

 

[Weird Harold]

I'll check out Dianna Gabaldon, I think a lot of people get into historical fiction by starting with geneology research, local historical groups, etc.

Another "historical" series you might enjoy is the alternate history "Ring of Fire Series" by Eric Flint, et al that begins with the novel 1632 -- there's a lot of reasonably historically accurate information about the 17th century (ca. Germany, Thirty Years War time period) presented as "in the history we came from" vs "what our presence is caused to be different."

Harry Turtledove writes a lot of alternate history stuff, too, but I don't feel he researches the real history quite as thoroughly as others do.

 

[AllardChardon]

Weird Harold,

Once again back to Allende's weak ending. After 447 pages of the heroine searching for Joaquin Andrieta, we never find out if she finds him or not, only that she is free. She was free the whole damn time and put herself in that prison of trying to find her lover. At the end we do not know if it was in fact her lover or just a Mexican bandit beheaded for his crimes. His head in a big jar of formaldehyde on display but no resolution, really. Cheap trick, I'd say.

XssVe,

Yes, I had to tiptoe through some of my hsitorical passages so as not to piss off the local folks in Salt Lake City. I went as far as to buy a map of downtown from 1861 to help my main characters move around the city correctly. Do not want them writing me nasty notes on my website that I need to create.

 

[xssve]

I'll check it out Harold, I must be on a historical fiction binge, I have a hard time concentrating on anything else.

Panati's Extraordinary Endings of Practically Everything & Everybody is a real eye opener, not exactly the stuff of historical romance - our romantic ancestors were walking encyclopedias of pathology - but I think it could lend a certain element of desperation. I like that desperate stuff, and I'm alwasy looking noirish ideas with erotic potential. For some reason talking about Othello in the other thread reminded me of Bound, with Jennifer Tilly and Gina Gershon - that one had a lot of erotic potential.

Interestingly, I just learned that the sex scenes in that movie were choreographed by Susie Bright - I had no idea there was such a thing as a sex scene choreographer.

We used to have a copy of a book called Isn't One Wife Enough? by Kimball Young about Mormon polygyny - I keep wondering what happened to it, I never did read it.

 

[NoJo]

Personally I usually cant wait for the weak endings, by Tuesdays.

 

[xssve]

Alrighty then. Sorry Joe, it's over my head.

 

[NoJo]

Alrighty then. Sorry Joe, it's over my head.

Probably under it actually (weak ending/weekend -- oh nm)

 

[AllardChardon]

XssVe,

Panati's Extraordinary Endings of Practically Everything & Everybody

Is this a book?

Bound

Is this a movie?

Yes, porn movies have sex choreographers and fluffers. I knew a Director of Photography who worked in the biz for years. He told me "Flufflers" keep the dicks hard in between takes. What a job that would be? "Oh girl, would you bring you mouth over here for a few?" says the BIG stud. "Be right there, honey, just want a swig of my Starbuck's frappacino first," she replies, wetting her whistle.

 

[xssve]

Oh right, weekends - the Tuesday thing threw me, I'm a bit slow sometimes.

Yeah, Panati's is a book, Bound is a movie, kind of a crime noir lesbian thing, very tense, keeps you guessing.

Right, fluffers - from watching out takes, I presumed the director making suggestions was what passed for choreography "torpedo drop!"

At one point in my life I thought of going to Hollywood to become a stunt cock.

 

[AllardChardon]

Why didn't you follow through with the stunt cock thing? You could have been famous.

I don't really want to be famous, just rich.


Thanks for the tips on the book and the movie. I will check them out. Do you think the public library will have the book? I hope Blockbuster has the movie.

I watched Hard Eight last night. My youngest son is going through some P.T. Anderson films at this time. I really liked this movie. And the end was really good. Anderson knows what he is doing. He writes and direct his own stuff. Smart man.

 

[xssve]

Too lazy. And me too - rather be rich than famous, I'm infamous already and it sucks, everybody wants a piece of you.

Bound is an oldie by now (1996), so it'll probobly be in the dollar movies - pretty good though, it keeps moving and the suspense builds - I can't even remember how it ends oddly enough. I like Joe Pantolaino, and it's hard not to like either Gershon or Tilly and they all do great things with what are essentially sterotypical noir characters. It's the Wachowski bro's second film. Anyway, like I say, I mentioned it because of Othello, to which there is a minor paralell.