We Need to Get Our (Green)House in Order

[SpeareChucker]

Listen to the folks from California, who know best how to manage resources and create a clean environment, who want to use the power of the Federal Government in order to create a better, cleaner world to leave to our children.

...

And L.A. isn't alone when it comes to smog-choked cities in California: seven of the nation's top 10 smoggiest cities are in the Golden State, including other sprawling cities such as San Francisco, San Diego and Sacramento....

Okay, in their defense, Republicans did this to the state in their uncaring and greedy search of profit in places like LA, Sand Fransisco and Silicon Valley. So, in 2020, if you care at all about the air you breath vote against TRUMP, the polluter and vote for Democrats, the pristine and green.






https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...lution-smog-soot-worst-california/3551734002/


... and the skies are grey...


It's okay. There are a lot of excuses and fingers to be pointed at how much dirtier other people are, swear to Allah!

 

[InsightRiot]

I could give a fuck less.

Let's talk about Generation 4 nuclear reactors. I've heard they use some new sodium for cooling which reduces the chance of meltdown if something goes wrong, and I've heard it uses radioactive waste from older nuclear plants.

 

[RobDownSouth]

And let's bring back leaded gas, while we're at it! Made engine run sooo much smoother.

 

[InsightRiot]

Before Notre Dame burnt down I started taking classes at a local stained glass shop. 6 classes, my last class was the wednesday after the cathedral fire.

I have a new expensive hobby! I plan on making more pieces, and I want to take the fused glass class next.

 

[thør]

There's "new" sodium?

 

[JohnnySavage]

The US had a submarine in the 50's with a Sodium moderated reactor. It was crap and the navy replaced it with a good ole reliable PWR.

 

[thør]

The US had a submarine in the 50's with a Sodium moderated reactor. It was crap and the navy replaced it with a good ole reliable PWR.

https://images-wixmp-ed30a86b8c4ca887773594c2.wixmp.com/f/e10c46a4-0de9-4087-b54b-a5f62daf50c2/d7kkcl0-69b12780-04a0-42e5-b271-c19b1b235e93.jpg?token=eyJ0eXAiOiJKV1QiLCJhbGciOiJIUzI1NiJ9.eyJzdWIiOiJ1cm46YXBwOjdlMGQxODg5ODIyNjQzNzNhNWYwZDQxNWVhMGQyNmUwIiwiaXNzIjoidXJuOmFwcDo3ZTBkMTg4OTgyMjY0MzczYTVmMGQ0MTVlYTBkMjZlMCIsIm9iaiI6W1t7InBhdGgiOiJcL2ZcL2UxMGM0NmE0LTBkZTktNDA4Ny1iNTRiLWE1ZjYyZGFmNTBjMlwvZDdra2NsMC02OWIxMjc4MC0wNGEwLTQyZTUtYjI3MS1jMTliMWIyMzVlOTMuanBnIn1dXSwiYXVkIjpbInVybjpzZXJ2aWNlOmZpbGUuZG93bmxvYWQiXX0.S2FAuvdAqRJXSU4nuHWpACcuaXkL75lFW3j147_cCsA

 

[Pookie]

The world was so much simpler when it was flat.

 

[Kantarii]

Fuck California. What good is doing all that going to do for them if the state falls into the ocean long.before the apocalypse happens?
Kant

 

[InsightRiot]

There's "new" sodium?

I should have said "a new sodium coolant".

 

[InsightRiot]

So do any of you people know anything about Gen 4 Nuclear?

I bet Que does.

 

[thør]

I should have said "a new sodium coolant".

Toshiba was going to site a mini-unit at Galena, but it all fell though. Then again, why the heck would you site anything important in the floodplain? Plus, I don't see Galena as an up and coming metropolis. More like a group of people looking to get by.

 

[DMBFFF]

400 watts solar power/sq m x
1 million sq m/sq km x
375 000 sq km x
0.1% California covered in PVCs x
5% efficiency x
2 million seconds of sunshine a year =

15000000000000000 joules per year = 15 billion megajoules per year

Divide by fewer than 50 million Californians > 300 megajoules/Californian per year

 

[SpeareChucker]

I could give a fuck less.

Let's talk about Generation 4 nuclear reactors. I've heard they use some new sodium for cooling which reduces the chance of meltdown if something goes wrong, and I've heard it uses radioactive waste from older nuclear plants.

We've talked about them.

The Green Luddites hate them because, you know, they science with da mad skillz...

 

[SpeareChucker]

400 watts solar power/sq m x
1 million sq m/sq km x
375 000 sq km x
0.1% California covered in PVCs x
5% efficiency x
2 million seconds of sunshine a year =

15000000000000000 joules per year = 15 billion megajoules per year

Divide by fewer than 50 million Californians > 300 megajoules/Californian per year

How much does an aluminum refinery-foundry require...?

 

[DMBFFF]

How much does an aluminum refinery-foundry require...?

I don't know, nor do I know how much energy it takes to make a kg of aluminum, or a PVC, though I think the sun can more than provide.

1 square meter of the aforementioned PVC would only produce 40 kilojoules per year, though presumably aluminum or other reflective material is far more efficient.




https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_cooker

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Odeillo_solar_furnace

The Odeillo solar furnace is the world's largest solar furnace. It is situated in Font-Romeu-Odeillo-Via, in the department of Pyrénées-Orientales, in south of France. It is 54 metres (177 ft) high and 48 metres (157 ft) wide, and includes 63 heliostats. It was built between 1962 and 1968, and started operating in 1970, and has a power of one megawatt.

It serves as a science research site studying materials at very high temperatures.

I figure at one megawatt, it's producing the energy equivalent of 1 kg of coal every 40 seconds, perhaps more due to greater efficiency. If it operates for 2500 hours per year, that'd be the equivalent of 225 metric tons of coal, FWIW.


(for sources and bigger pics)
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Four_solaire_001.jpg

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/ac/Four_solaire_001.jpg/1280px-Four_solaire_001.jpg

 

[SpeareChucker]

Just pointing out the fallacy of your math.


It also does not account for habitat destroyed and birds, chopped or fried...

I prefer mine extra crispy.

 

[Wat_Tyler]

But but but, how do they get breaded???

 

[SpeareChucker]

Here's the thing in this issue.

If you had the best mousetrap ever invented, the government would not have to subsidize, sell and mandate it for you.

I have zero problem with alternative forms of energy if (and only if) they can create their own demand. The most inefficient path to the chimera of sustained renewability is to use government to pick and choose winners, because as you pointed out in the other thread, winners pick the government and write the rules...

[winners being an euphemism for the rich and powerful]

 

[SpeareChucker]

But but but, how do they get breaded???

There's a subsidy for that.



There's a lot of undocumented labor out there that can be exploited to keep the associated costs down.

 

[DMBFFF]

Just pointing out the fallacy of your math.


It also does not account for habitat destroyed and birds, chopped or fried...

I prefer mine extra crispy.

I figure I'm being conservative; moreover I don't think the space where birds would be in danger is that great—and even there it's perhaps the equivalent of sticking a bare hand in a hot oven—not touching anything—for a few seconds—after all, it's not a giant laser.

 

[SpeareChucker]

Do your homework.

Mirror-based solar farms do flash fry anything that flies into them.
Think bug-zapper writ large...

 

[DMBFFF]

Do your homework.

Mirror-based solar farms do flash fry anything that flies into them.
Think bug-zapper writ large...

A bug zapper is harmless to an insect a meter away from it.



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concentrated_solar_power

Effect on wildlife

Insects can be attracted to the bright light caused by concentrated solar technology, and as a result birds that hunt them can be killed by being burned if they fly near the point where light is being focused. This can also affect raptors who hunt the birds.[97][98][99][100] Federal wildlife officials were quoted by opponents as calling the Ivanpah power towers "mega traps" for wildlife.[101][102][103]

According to rigorous reporting, in over six months, 133 singed birds were counted.[104] By focusing no more than four mirrors on any one place in the air during standby, at Crescent Dunes Solar Energy Project, in three months, the death rate dropped to zero.[105] Other than in the US, no bird deaths have been reported at CSP plants internationally.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crescent_Dunes_Solar_Energy_Project

The Crescent Dunes Solar Energy Project is a 110 megawatt (MW) net[3] solar thermal power project with 1.1 gigawatt-hours of energy storage,[1] located near Tonopah, about 190 miles (310 km) northwest of Las Vegas.[4][5]

(for sources and bigger pics)
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Crescent_Dunes_Solar_December_2014.JPG

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/ff/Crescent_Dunes_Solar_December_2014.JPG/1024px-Crescent_Dunes_Solar_December_2014.JPG

 

[SpeareChucker]

Again, patiently, if line-frying your clothes is the power of the future, then our government would not have to be mandating clothesline as they do in California while at once ignoring the hypocrisy of what they are driven to do in order to make up the shortfall of a citizenry who actively votes against its best self-interests.

Do you think that the deconcentrating of the reflected light is making the facility more, or less efficient? Did the unintended consequences of the green initiative create even greater inefficiencies in order to maintain the illusion of viability? How much acreage will be required to support more economic growth and what are the side costs to the rest of the environment?

You have to look past the good of energy without fossil fuels in order to begin to grasp the true impact of the desired outcome.

 

[DMBFFF]

Again, patiently, if line-frying your clothes is the power of the future, then our government would not have to be mandating clothesline as they do in California while at once ignoring the hypocrisy of what they are driven to do in order to make up the shortfall of a citizenry who actively votes against its best self-interests.

Huh?

Do you think that the deconcentrating of the reflected light is making the facility more, or less efficient?

Overall it's concentrating, not "deconcentrating," though not as much; also there might simply be more points to focus on—what has more energy: a 10 kg lump of coal or 10-1 kg lumps of coal?

Did the unintended consequences of the green initiative create even greater inefficiencies in order to maintain the illusion of viability?

Again, huh?

The direction of solar power is towards greater efficiency, and while not quite viable in all cases, it's getting more so. Determining viability is simple: if it produces electricity at a reasonably low cost (financially and in other ways), it's viable.

How much acreage will be required to support more economic growth and what are the side costs to the rest of the environment?

IDK offhand: maybe 1000 sq m per person should suffice—if that much. Some of this acreage can be in the form of building walls and roofs.