We are alot of things. Nazis is not one of them.

[Jagged]

Have listened to the childish and pathetic insults people have thrown at the President (doesn't help your cause by the way.)


You have chanted "no blood for oil" for 4 years (while still driving SUVs) and have made it clear that you don't want to be put out at all so other people can be free and not be repressed. More troops are guarding civilians then guarding any oil field btw.


I have watched you all walk around with your protest sighs and cups of starbucks not so much supporting your cause but attacking the otherside (once again not enough to say why you hate someone in an election but to say what your guy will do better. ) I like others have no idea what Senator Kerry's "plan" is but I would hope if it is so good that a sitting Senator would share it with the administration turn the war around and make it clear it was do to his efforts.


Now back to the point of my thread. Many have forgotten what true evil can do (you all remember 9/11 right?) Iraq thousands were being murdered and starved by a government that was supposed to protect them and care for them. The UN failed to even to over see the oil for food program (the secretary general's son even had his hand in the till.)

Out steps a focre to stop the madness. The United States of America stopped the killers and torturers. The rebuilding goes on despite diffuculties.


Nazis were evil. Hitler was an evil man. No American President isn't even remotely close to that type of evil. Iraq we found prisons (could call the death camps) filled with political prisoners. Even our worst prison scandal (I do believe all those soldiers should be punished) pales in comparission with common treatment of Iraqis (when the scandal broke President Bush met with a group of Iraqis that had their right hands cut off for minor crimes.)

We don't have death squads. We are not putting Arabs and Muslims in camps here much less remove the ones that came here illegally. Great lengths are being taken not to persecute those of the same background of our enemy. Even the Muslim groups encoarging their membership to vote for Kerry can only say they feel profiled and watched. They have few if any examples to point to that the Patriot Act is doing them harm.


In closing let me say this, we are the good guys and some of you have no idea what true evil is. Evil is something you can't kill or lock up and will always be with us. Some dare to stand up to and do so with great risk. The fault is not with them, but those who think doing nothing will be the best coarse.

We are not Nazis we stop them. American still means freedom to many and is a word that many fear. Hearing that the Americans are coming often means the end of the party for evil.

 

[bg23]

In closing let me say this, we are the good guys and some of you have no idea what true evil is. Evil is something you can't kill or lock up and will always be with us. Some dare to stand up to and do so with great risk. The fault is not with them, but those who think doing nothing will be the best coarse.

Propoganda. This lessens your credibility somewhat. You're attempting to justify everything by saying that there were only altruistic motives behind it? Too simple. It's not quite as clear cut as, "Them bad," "We good", I'm afraid. America had its reasons for acting as it did, and they most certainly were not purely altruistic.

We are not Nazis we stop them. American still means freedom to many and is a word that many fear.

You stop Nazis? How interesting. And here I was thinking that the war was not against Nazis, per se, but against terrorism, in general. The Iraqis are Nazis now? Al Quaida is a Nazi organisation?

Hearing that the Americans are coming often means the end of the party for evil.

You are to be commended for your patriotism. Nonetheless, I'm afraid I don't share your views on the greatness of america. Perhaps this is inevitable, since I am a foreigner, but what I have been presented with here are little less than unsupported statements. If you wish to say that America rids the world of evil then you must at least back this up with some form of credible evidence.

 

[KarenAM]

*Sigh*

Listen up, Jagged. You are oversimplifying. You are assuming that everyone who disagrees with this war fits into a nice, neat category that you can then criticise. You are assuming that everyone who opposes Mr. Bush thinks he's a Nazi.

And no matter how many times I have stated my case, people like you refuse to listen. So I'll try again.

Bush is not like Hitler. I have never said so and I have argued against those who have. I drive, when I drive, a fuel-efficient Honda that was built in the United States. I don't patronize Starbucks because they don't support our troops.

And where the hell do you get off telling me I don't remember 9-11? Who are you to tell me I don't still hurt from it? You have no idea what I and a lot of other people have gone through because of it and you are the worst sort of scum for telling me I don't suffer just because I don't agree with you.

Now let's talk about Iraq and what I actually believe, instead of what you think you can tell me I believe.

Saddam was evil. Through the 1980's the United States and Europe supported him even though we knew he was gassing the Kurds, and we sold him weapons (including weapons of mass destruction) and gave him food credits despite Iraq's oil wealth. We even told him we didn't regard his dispute with Kuwait as our business, knowing that he was a psychopathic killer. Then, we promised the people of Iraq that we would support them if they overthrew him in 1991, and then we turned our backs on them and let him slaughter tens of thousands of them. We betrayed them and then followed this up with ten years of sanctions that killed, by some estimates, more than a million Iraqis. We knew they were dying, and we knew that they were dying because we had betrayed them, and we did nothing.

That's the madness, Jagged. We are part of it.

Now, of course, we've acted. I'm glad Saddam's regime is gone, and I'm glad his psycho sons are dead. But this war is what the military calls a clusterfuck. Despite repeated warnings that an invasion would not succeed in restoring the country, Bush assumed that only Americans could fix Iraq. Despite repeated warnings that we needed more troops, he went in assuming that the Iraqis would all miraculously adopt a totally alien way of life and way of politics and that there would be no security problems. He sent our troops in with poor equipment and he allowed the entire country to be looted, destroying Iraq's cultural heritage (the very thing we need now to restore the country) and the only secular institutions it had (meaning that it will probably become an Iran-style theocracy). We have fucked this occupation up as badly as it can be fucked up and Bush refuses to even consider that he's made a single mistake. Cheney proclaims this a "success" even though the whole world knows otherwise.

We have not stopped the madness. We have simply replaced one madness with another. Instead of Iraqis dying in Saddam's prisons they are being massacred by terrorist bombs, and we are powerless to stop this.

I know what evil is, Jagged, and you have a lot of gall telling me I don't just because I have no tolerance for this level of failure from the president and from past administrations. I've looked into the eyes of a man who fully intended to kill me. He was an American, by the way, and if you honestly believe that Americans are always the good guys then you have obviously never heard of Tim McVeigh.

We did stop the Nazis. We also put Japanese-Americans into camps, dropped nuclear weapons on civilian targets, and supported Saddam Hussein. We are human beings, not the perfect gods you claim, and it is the very sense of infallibility that you praise that has led this country into its darkest hours, whether slavery, racism, the extermination of Native-Americans, the denial of voting rights to half the population, the Vietnam debacle, or our complete failure to help Iraq.

Bush isn't Hitler. Hitler had a racial agenda that Bush lacks, and Hitler managed to stifle all dissent in his country. Bush, despite his desire not to, still has to contend with the likes of me, who are going to speak our minds and vote as we see is best for the country. And the fact that Bush isn't Hitler does not mitigate the fact that Bush is a complete incompotent.

You need to grow up and get some gray into your world.

 

[Edward Teach]

Have listened to the childish and pathetic insults people have thrown at the President (doesn't help your cause by the way.)


You have chanted "no blood for oil" for 4 years (while still driving SUVs) and have made it clear that you don't want to be put out at all so other people can be free and not be repressed. More troops are guarding civilians then guarding any oil field btw.


I have watched you all walk around with your protest sighs and cups of starbucks not so much supporting your cause but attacking the otherside (once again not enough to say why you hate someone in an election but to say what your guy will do better. ) I like others have no idea what Senator Kerry's "plan" is but I would hope if it is so good that a sitting Senator would share it with the administration turn the war around and make it clear it was do to his efforts.


Now back to the point of my thread. Many have forgotten what true evil can do (you all remember 9/11 right?) Iraq thousands were being murdered and starved by a government that was supposed to protect them and care for them. The UN failed to even to over see the oil for food program (the secretary general's son even had his hand in the till.)

Out steps a focre to stop the madness. The United States of America stopped the killers and torturers. The rebuilding goes on despite diffuculties.


Nazis were evil. Hitler was an evil man. No American President isn't even remotely close to that type of evil. Iraq we found prisons (could call the death camps) filled with political prisoners. Even our worst prison scandal (I do believe all those soldiers should be punished) pales in comparission with common treatment of Iraqis (when the scandal broke President Bush met with a group of Iraqis that had their right hands cut off for minor crimes.)

We don't have death squads. We are not putting Arabs and Muslims in camps here much less remove the ones that came here illegally. Great lengths are being taken not to persecute those of the same background of our enemy. Even the Muslim groups encoarging their membership to vote for Kerry can only say they feel profiled and watched. They have few if any examples to point to that the Patriot Act is doing them harm.


In closing let me say this, we are the good guys and some of you have no idea what true evil is. Evil is something you can't kill or lock up and will always be with us. Some dare to stand up to and do so with great risk. The fault is not with them, but those who think doing nothing will be the best coarse.

We are not Nazis we stop them. American still means freedom to many and is a word that many fear. Hearing that the Americans are coming often means the end of the party for evil.

The point, Jag, is that it starts by justifying the numbers. Hitler initially came to power with less than 25% of the vote. Germany didn't think it could happen there either.

Ed

 

[SnoopDog]

Being a german I very much dislike the lose use of the word 'Nazi'. Please stop using it out of context because nothing - repeat: nothing - can be compared to the Nazi's. It's just a different level of horror and disgust.

Snoopy

 

[Edward Teach]

Being a german I very much dislike the lose use of the word 'Nazi'. Please stop using it out of context because nothing - repeat: nothing - can be compared to the Nazi's. It's just a different level of horror and disgust.

Snoopy

I'm from the South and I don't like references to slavery and the KKK, Snoopy, but it's history. If a group starts acting like slavers again, I'll compare them to the Old South.

Ed

 

[KarenAM]

I do believe that the term "Nazi" is misused, though. Naziism was a particular totalitarian philosophy that reflected the insanity of one man, even as it drew on racial ideas about behavior and identity that were popular in the early 20th century. In the same way the Khmer Rouge were a particular psychopathology that drew on more mainstream communist thinking.

The trouble is that the term "Nazi" is often used to refer to any totalitarian or even authoritarian movement rather than just the one that reflected Hitler's twisted view of the world.

At the same time, parallels do exist between different political movements, and it is possible to say that a movement may be "like" the Nazis. Al-Qaeda, in my opinion, shares the apocalyptic view of the Nazis, in that the destruction of the world is regarded favorably by both, and both movements have been led by messianic leaders whose personal psychopathology shapes the movement itself.

Bush, although he does have a messianic view of himself, is shaped by fundamentalist Christianity and its apocalyptic; he does not shape them. And so he does not compare in this way to either Hitler or bin Laden.

A more apt comparison, in my opinion, would be to Lenin and the communist movement in the early Soviet Union. In each case (the neo-cons and the bolsheviks) you have a committed group of idealists who are intent on reshaping a social and political system along ideological grounds, and who have little respect for the old institutions. Each appeals to nationalism (America's sense of destiny or Mother Russia) and each uses external threats to bolster its own position (The Republican party's exploitation of the terrorist threat or the invasion of the USSR by Hitler). And each shows a frightening disregard for sane fiscal policy.

Perhaps those who feel that Bush and his administration can do no wrong should pay heed to what happened to the USSR.

 

[Weird Harold]

Being a german I very much dislike the lose use of the word 'Nazi'. Please stop using it out of context because nothing - repeat: nothing - can be compared to the Nazi's. It's just a different level of horror and disgust.

Snoopy

I agree that the word Nazi has a connotation of horror and disgust and is far too often used outof context for just that reason.

However, I disagree that "nothing can be compared to the Nazis" -- do some research on the Ba'ath Party in Iraq and Syria. They are not and were not anywhere near as "sucessful" a Hitler and the National Socialists he led, but it's not because of lack of similaritites -- or desire.

 

[dr_mabeuse]

It’s exactly as Karen said, and said so well. No one’s suggesting that Iraq was better off with Sadam in power, and no one I know believes that we went over there with entirely evil intentions or that we’re the bad guys. The fact is, though, that the invasion was planned with astonishing incompetence at the highest levels of government, and now we’re harvesting the results of that incompetence.

Before the invasion was launched, the Department of State put together a huge, multi-volume analysis of what we needed to do after the invasion in terms of security and re-establishing civil control. Bush and Cheney willfully and deliberately ignored it and just tossed it aside because it didn’t match their naïve and misinformed vision of what they believed would happen: that Iraq would spontaneously flower into a free and democratic society. This is not a matter of them not being informed; it’s a matter of willful ignorance of the advice of the most experienced arm of the government.

What’s happening over there now and what’s been happening for the last year and a half wasn’t inevitable. It was all entirely preventable. It’s a result of piss-poor planning

It was arrogance and incompetence on an astonishing level, and our men and women over there--as well as the Iraqi people--are now paying the price for our leaders’ boneheaded and inexcusable mistakes.

---dr.M.

 

[Colleen Thomas]

Jagged, A little history lesson from someone you can't classify as a liberal or leftist by any stretch of your imagination.

Hitler began small, gained a majority in a contested election with allegations of fraud and intimidation, began in tiny, incremental steps to dismantle the protections citizens enjoyed and curtailing the rule of law. His policies were xenophobic, nationalistic and imperialistic. His foerign policy was backed with threat of force. He attempted to give himself an air of legitimacy by working with the international community, but acted unilaterally when thwarted by them. Hitler was a master of propaganda, sublimating even state run media outlets.

Now for the lesson. Replace Hitler with GWB in the above Paragraph.

After you have, show me where anyone with half a brain would have trouble drawing parallels. There are enough paralells so that acusations have legs. Dismissing them out of hand, with resort to simplistic good and evil rationalizations is the very kind of intellectually gelded response that makes neo-cons look like a bunch of dogmatic morons.

-Colly

 

[cantdog]

All the things they assumed, both in Afghanistan and in Iraq, come under the heading of "checkables." That is, we know the real picture. In both places we had people, especially CIA people, who knew the ground well enough to give an expert opinion on what would work and what would not. But these civilian yahoos, in their ideological fantasyland, did not believe the people who knew.

There are plenty of sources for this. Try Imperial Hubris, the book by the CIA dude, or Chain of Command by Hersh, or the book by Mr. Richard Clark, the anti-terrorism czar who was dismissed by the Bushites because he didn't see the point of attacking Iraq.

The books and articles from inside this administration are very revealing. Read them all, as I have. Then tell me about the purity of motive possessed by the likes of Ashcroft and Rumsfeld.

Ass.

cantdog

 

[cantdog]

Ooh, Colleen, you're so great! "Intellectually gelded!" Man. I bow down, honestly.

cantdog

 

[Belegon]

I believed the administration about the WMD's and gave them every benefit of the doubt. They lied. and denied lying. and misdirected. etc. This war had the almost unblinking support of the american people until we found out we had been deceived.

My family has a strong military history, including every major conflict of the 20th century and I have family over there now.

My father was in Cambodia in 1966 (we still have not admitted to being there that early). My brother was special forces until he hurt his back. I know the abilities of our military.

Believe me, no intelligence failure of this size has ever been possible without major heads rolling. No heads have rolled. Among other things, this leads me to believe we knew what we were going to find, or rather not find.

Bush lied and it is killing our children. Get him the fuck out.

 

[TheEarl]

*Sigh*

Listen up, Jagged. You are oversimplifying. You are assuming that everyone who disagrees with this war fits into a nice, neat category that you can then criticise. You are assuming that everyone who opposes Mr. Bush thinks he's a Nazi.

And no matter how many times I have stated my case, people like you refuse to listen. So I'll try again.

Bush is not like Hitler. I have never said so and I have argued against those who have. I drive, when I drive, a fuel-efficient Honda that was built in the United States. I don't patronize Starbucks because they don't support our troops.

And where the hell do you get off telling me I don't remember 9-11? Who are you to tell me I don't still hurt from it? You have no idea what I and a lot of other people have gone through because of it and you are the worst sort of scum for telling me I don't suffer just because I don't agree with you.

Now let's talk about Iraq and what I actually believe, instead of what you think you can tell me I believe.

Saddam was evil. Through the 1980's the United States and Europe supported him even though we knew he was gassing the Kurds, and we sold him weapons (including weapons of mass destruction) and gave him food credits despite Iraq's oil wealth. We even told him we didn't regard his dispute with Kuwait as our business, knowing that he was a psychopathic killer. Then, we promised the people of Iraq that we would support them if they overthrew him in 1991, and then we turned our backs on them and let him slaughter tens of thousands of them. We betrayed them and then followed this up with ten years of sanctions that killed, by some estimates, more than a million Iraqis. We knew they were dying, and we knew that they were dying because we had betrayed them, and we did nothing.

That's the madness, Jagged. We are part of it.

Now, of course, we've acted. I'm glad Saddam's regime is gone, and I'm glad his psycho sons are dead. But this war is what the military calls a clusterfuck. Despite repeated warnings that an invasion would not succeed in restoring the country, Bush assumed that only Americans could fix Iraq. Despite repeated warnings that we needed more troops, he went in assuming that the Iraqis would all miraculously adopt a totally alien way of life and way of politics and that there would be no security problems. He sent our troops in with poor equipment and he allowed the entire country to be looted, destroying Iraq's cultural heritage (the very thing we need now to restore the country) and the only secular institutions it had (meaning that it will probably become an Iran-style theocracy). We have fucked this occupation up as badly as it can be fucked up and Bush refuses to even consider that he's made a single mistake. Cheney proclaims this a "success" even though the whole world knows otherwise.

We have not stopped the madness. We have simply replaced one madness with another. Instead of Iraqis dying in Saddam's prisons they are being massacred by terrorist bombs, and we are powerless to stop this.

I know what evil is, Jagged, and you have a lot of gall telling me I don't just because I have no tolerance for this level of failure from the president and from past administrations. I've looked into the eyes of a man who fully intended to kill me. He was an American, by the way, and if you honestly believe that Americans are always the good guys then you have obviously never heard of Tim McVeigh.

We did stop the Nazis. We also put Japanese-Americans into camps, dropped nuclear weapons on civilian targets, and supported Saddam Hussein. We are human beings, not the perfect gods you claim, and it is the very sense of infallibility that you praise that has led this country into its darkest hours, whether slavery, racism, the extermination of Native-Americans, the denial of voting rights to half the population, the Vietnam debacle, or our complete failure to help Iraq.

Bush isn't Hitler. Hitler had a racial agenda that Bush lacks, and Hitler managed to stifle all dissent in his country. Bush, despite his desire not to, still has to contend with the likes of me, who are going to speak our minds and vote as we see is best for the country. And the fact that Bush isn't Hitler does not mitigate the fact that Bush is a complete incompotent.

You need to grow up and get some gray into your world.

Just thought it bore repeating, considering it's very rare that you'll hear someone speaking with such concise eloquence.

The Earl

 

[cantdog]

Karen AM has a real mind on her.

 

[cantdog]

Besides, how could anyone insult George? It would have to be negative and untrue, to be an insult. I mean, think about it.

Hey? Jagged? Don't be frightened, honey; we'll hold your hand. Come back-- and make sense this time.

 

[KarenAM]

Thanks! Coming from you folks that means quite a lot!

 

[CrazyyAngel]

Being a german I very much dislike the lose use of the word 'Nazi'. Please stop using it out of context because nothing - repeat: nothing - can be compared to the Nazi's. It's just a different level of horror and disgust.

Snoopy

Actually you can compare things to the Nazis. Maybe Bush isn't there yet, but the parallels to Hitler are clearly there. Our former secretary of justice (if I remember correctly) shouldn't have compared GWB to Hitler in public, but she was right, nonetheless. Remember ... back in 1938 Hitler was a nominee for the Peace Nobel Prize!! Before the war he wasn't viewed as the monster we call him today. Georgie-boy still has a long way to go (and one I hope he won't go) to really become a second Hitler, but I can imagine it started the same way 70 years ago.

CA

 

[Boxlicker101]

Being a german I very much dislike the lose use of the word 'Nazi'. Please stop using it out of context because nothing - repeat: nothing - can be compared to the Nazi's. It's just a different level of horror and disgust.

Snoopy

Hitler is, justifiably used as the apex of evil. On a scale of one to 100, Hitler stands alone at 100 but there are others who who at least comparable. Stalin probably killed as many but over a longer period of time. Don't forget, he was an ally of Hitler in the early days of the European phase of World War 2. The actual extent of his evil will probably never be known because so much of it has always been kept secret from the world.

Others were probably just as evil but lacked the resources to match Hitler. Pol Pot comes to mind. In murdering people, he was worse than Hitler, at least as a percentage of potential victims. Idi Amin, Saddam and Khoemeini were probably as evil as Hitler, and would have inflicted as much death and destruction on the world as Hitler but they were lacking the resources. Bin Laden is not actually a ruler of anybody but he has his fanatical followers and would start where Hitler left off if he could. The recent massacres in Africa were probably led by one man or a group of men but I don't know his name or their names.

If I culled my brain, I could probably name more recent monsters but that will do for now.

 

[Quiet_Cool]

Ummm...

shit....

I hate these threads...

hmmm....



Hmm, fuck. All right.

I'm gonna do this.

Consider this people:

First off, yes, Bush and his people lied, and they went into Iraq unprepared, and all that shit. I'm not here to argue that point, or to call anyone God-like or even to preach my point of view on the matters at hand. But consider this: The only reason all this is such an issue is because of an upcoming election.

Secondly, no, we're not Naziis, whether we're Pro-Bush, Pro-Kerry, even if we're Pro-David Duke or Pro-Nader. No Naziis except of the "Neo-nazi" variety, and they're not a majority at all. Or even close. Can you find parallels between Bush and hitler. Sure can, and parallels between Stalin and the Pope if you look for them, and you do have to specifically look for them. The same can be said for John Kerry. You could find all kinds of similarities between him and whatver evil Historical figure you wish if you looked for specifics. Does any of that really matter? No; not at all. They're jsut comparisons. They're like opinions. If you agree, it makes sense; if you don't, it doesn't. And if you've ever tried to convince someone to agree with you on grounds of your own opinion (like happens every time someone starts a thread on politics here on the Lit. boards and anywhere else in America or abroad) you'll realize that talk is just talk, every bit as cheap as the bad wrap it's recieved.

But let me get back to what I was saying. There've been a lot of good points here, and many truths stated, but the focus of said points is seems to be Bush and it's being focused on by anti-Bush... well, people I guess is the best word (that I can come up with--if you need a better one, talk to dr. M; he's a thesaurus of a man, that one). But if you check any anti-Kerry threads (I know, they're rare around here, but consider why: Bush has given us four years worth of world-views and antics that have been televised and covered by national and international news to attack and criticise; Kerry has given us less than a year's worth of promises, and no action whatsoever), you'll see some good points there too.

I'm not gonna go pro-Bush here; and I'm also not going Pro-Kerry, either. I said before, I won't preach a viewpoint. I am going to make a few statements about John Kerry.

One: He said he defended our country (the United States) in Vietnam. A noble act, that he has based most of his credibility on? You can argue he has more credibility elsewhere, and I'll give you props and not argue, but he played this angle a lot. Defended our country? His own words, in numerous ads. Kerry was there, all the anti-Kerry swiftboaters say so, and I believe them and him both in that respect. But then he came home, after "defending our freedom" and protested. Most of us feel, looking back, that it was a war we didn't belong in, and that the U.S. wasn't under attack and being threatened in Vietnam. Including Kerry, who came home and protested the war. How did he defend us, when we weren't being threatened? Sounds like a lie to me, or at least a gross misdirection, both of which Bush has been accused of how many times in this thread (and was most likely guilty of; again, I'm not defending him, just making a few points)?

Something more specific, in my humble opinion (and you pretty much have to be humble when talking politics, or the Gods and Generals of the Lit. boards crush you from thier thrones like a still-lit but useless cigarette, now don't they? God forbid someone disagree or state an opinion...)

Belegon said this: "Bush lied and it is killing our children. Get him the fuck out." Yes, Bush lied and people are dieing, all of them someone's child, and many of them (though far from a majority) Americans. And Kerry, well, Kerry's only responsible for the death of one child. The Vietnamese teenager (14 y/o was it?) that he shot in back while the boy attempted to run away. Brave one there. Tough guy with a gun. Think he'll be more compasionate if he's voted President? Maybe, maybe not. He doesn't have to see the children whose lives are at stake now to kill them.

I'm not gonna point out more Bush flaws, because you guys have covered that. I will say this: I know that he has many, and no, he's not so great a President, if he isn't a terrible one! I'm not denying any of this, nor am I stating any favoritism toward him. I was merely stating enough info to base the simple fact that Kerry may not be the answer either. Just as Al Gore wasn't (and he was an honest fella, and smart; invented the internet, that one did... ).

(apologies for my typing btw, I know I didn't correct many typos, and there have to be millions of them.)

Here's my final point. If you guys want to argue politics, than here's a political idea for you. Neither candidate is qualified, and neither will do well. When Michael Moore says Kerry's not qualified, then he simply isn't. If you feel that Moore is a samrt and respectable guy, you can see reason to respect his opinion. If you think he's an idiot, then even an idiot can see the truth. Neither is likely capable or competent, or stands much chance of handling the next fours years with any real ability. You can feel otherwise if you wish, and I won't argue with you (you have a right to your own opinion, and I won't tell you otherwise; and besides, I didn't post this to argue, only to attempt to point out that arguing does no good).

Oh, and if there's a political point that needs arguing, maybe you guys, supporters of any and every candidate, shoudl all get togetehr and argue with laurel to start a politics board. It's becoming clear that this topic needs its own place here on Lit. i know, cantdog, you saw it coming...

I'm sorry if I said anything that angered or offended, and I won't be back to read reactions, because (one) this is too much typing to repeat with my lacking typing skills and (two) NaNoWriMo starts in four plus hours and I've got a schedule to hit (and I need sleep first).

Good luck, have fun, quit harassing each other, and remember that people on all sides of every argument present details in too perfect manners that never really fit reality...

Q_C

 

[Seattle Zack]

We are many disparate individuals here in the AH, but very few of us think "alot" is a word.

 

[Jagged]

Yes America has made mistakes. We try not to make them and I think we have made some improvements over the past. I am always amazed at the complete lack of patriotism from some in this country. I know you all love this country as much I do so please don't write back telling me that you do it is a waste of time. Your patriots just not very smart ones. We are not gods but I unlike many people I don't feel shame at being American. I am proud to be one. Most of you can't say the same. Far to many people live here but want no part of America. Most of the most patriotic people I know are immigrants. They know how great is and love it here. I have know more then a few they have served and bled for this country before becoming citizens because they wanted to live the dream.

You don't hurt from 9-11? I never said that but most would do nothing about it. Senator Kerry didn't even seem to take his duty serious when he was on the intelligence committee.

All I meant with this thread is that some of the comparrisons to the President are unfounded. Still most of you continue on with the insults.

The war is not as bad as the media would have us believe. I have talked to soldier after soldier who served in the threater and they often speak of grateful people and progress. These people are adapting slowly, but are moving in the right direction.


I am amazed ever day there are long lines of Iraqi men waiting to apply for a job as a police officer. They do that even after an explosion the day before at the same station. They don't sound committed do they? This country all you have to do is mail in a form to start the process. I don't think anybody ever gets killed during it.

Don't like the President stick to the issues. The insults only make you look pathetic.

Senator Kerry is a man I don't like because of his poor senate career. He is nothing special and frankly I think the Democrats could have done better. I have yet to hear what the Democrats would done on 9-11 in response. All I know is they say they can do better. If they win I hope they can. They won't but I have faith that the country will survive. If it does come to it I will give the same respect to President Kerry as I have given the the current President.

Can some of you say the same?





alot.....lol you would be right. Sometimes space is an issue. Improved spelling and grammer is an issue I think we can all get behind.


I liked the last post. Spelling errors take away from great content.

 

[Lucifer_Carroll]

Yes America has made mistakes. We try not to make them and I think we have made some improvements over the past. I am always amazed at the complete lack of patriotism from some in this country. I know you all love this country as much I do so please don't write back telling me that you do it is a waste of time. Your patriots just not very smart ones. We are not gods but I unlike many people I don't feel shame at being American. I am proud to be one. Most of you can't say the same. Far to many people live here but want no part of America. Most of the most patriotic people I know are immigrants. They know how great is and love it here. I have know more then a few they have served and bled for this country before becoming citizens because they wanted to live the dream.

You don't hurt from 9-11? I never said that but most would do nothing about it. Senator Kerry didn't even seem to take his duty serious when he was on the intelligence committee.

All I meant with this thread is that some of the comparrisons to the President are unfounded. Still most of you continue on with the insults.

The war is not as bad as the media would have us believe. I have talked to soldier after soldier who served in the threater and they often speak of grateful people and progress. These people are adapting slowly, but are moving in the right direction.


I am amazed ever day there are long lines of Iraqi men waiting to apply for a job as a police officer. They do that even after an explosion the day before at the same station. They don't sound committed do they? This country all you have to do is mail in a form to start the process. I don't think anybody ever gets killed during it.

Don't like the President stick to the issues. The insults only make you look pathetic.

Senator Kerry is a man I don't like because of his poor senate career. He is nothing special and frankly I think the Democrats could have done better. I have yet to hear what the Democrats would done on 9-11 in response. All I know is they say they can do better. If they win I hope they can. They won't but I have faith that the country will survive. If it does come to it I will give the same respect to President Kerry as I have given the the current President.

Can some of you say the same?





alot.....lol you would be right. Sometimes space is an issue. Improved spelling and grammer is an issue I think we can all get behind.


I liked the last post. Spelling errors take away from great content.

Muscle Pakistan and Afghanistan over Al-Queda training camps, use the threat of invasion, but instead of running in, accept transfer of bin-Laden in exchange for not bombing the shit out of a war-torn country. If that failed, pursue bin-Ladin into Pakistan, demand aid from Pakistani government in reparation for training him. Threaten Saudi Arabian government about funding of bin-Ladin. Let them know that we will cease to support them if they don't play nice. Initiate diplomacy with Egypt re: Islamic Jihad and why that Egyptain sect of al-Queda donated the brunt of suicide bombers to the destruction of Twin Towers. They would also capitalize on the international goodwill of the incident instead of squandering it on a war in Iraq. Use it instead to push for an Israel/Palestine peace accord, move US bases on Muslim holy land into Israel or Jordan in order to eliminate main recruiting arm of al Queda.

Except at home they'd be shredded by right-wing pundits for being soft on terrorism by not bombing enough brown people. However, our international goodwill would be high, there'd be less active terrorist groups, less Muslims who believe that America is engaging in a holy war against them personally, and proof of our aim to only extricate those who strike against us.

But we'd bomb less brown people.

So, for real America it would have been a waste of 9/11. Plus, our country wouldn't resemble a theocracy, democracy wouldn't have died here, parties wouldn't have found it acceptable to actively prevent people from voting.

All of that is the reason why it would have been horrific if a Democrat had been in power during 9/11.

Not to mention that a Dem would have put pressure on the CIA and FBI about their failures and tried to actually fix that instead of creating a department whose misson is to "provide at least one photo op per month for the President" in Tom Ridge's words. Not to mention we'd still have civil liberties.

Bad. Very bad for America if the Dems had been in charge.

On the domestic front, nothing much would have happened. The surplus would have continued, helping to drain the deficit, money would try to be shifted from bombs to guerilla warfare items like body armor, ammunition, and better rifles. It'd be decried by the pundits and would fail.

All bad for America.

Anti-terrorism CIA agents wouldn't have been outed, al Queda moles wouldn't have been outed, treason by the executive branch wouldn't have occured.

Super bad stuff.

Good of you to ask, Jagged. I can safely say in response to your query that if the Dems had been in charge it would have been very very bad for America. The International goodwill, swift punishment of al Queda, and overall static domestic change woud have been terrifying to behold. Where would be our entertainment? Confirmation that 1984 is a how to book? Confirmation that America is dumber than a sack of bricks?


Am I an anti-patriot? Sure, call me that. I've given up on politics in this country. We're idiots. Republicans, democrats, independents, all of us have the brains of peas. We split 50/50, inventing extremism, creating what ifs, doubting evidence, deifying people whose job for a living is to lie to massive amounts of people, and arguing on porn writer forums. We're all idiots and we deserve death this Nov. 2. Fuck us all.


Wait. That gives me an idea.

Hey everyone, Nov.2, down here, giant orgy at Vella's smack dab in the middle of the 2nd Circle. Be there or be political.

Hell, your states probably already decided anyway unless you happen to live in Ohio or Florida.

 

[Xelebes]

Being a german I very much dislike the lose use of the word 'Nazi'. Please stop using it out of context because nothing - repeat: nothing - can be compared to the Nazi's. It's just a different level of horror and disgust.

Snoopy

I prefer the word fascists but would that be demeaning to those here from Italy?

But that's not the point of discussion. Another wing post that I roll my eyes at (all too frequent as the election nears.)

 

[Belegon]

There is a lot more to say than I am willing to post here. But as far as the point I made earlier is concerned;

If I do my job poorly or incorrectly, I lose it. He should too. Will Kerry do better? I hope we find out. But I certainly have no wish to reward the current administration for their incompetence by giving them another four years and hoping that they have learned from their mistakes.