WaPo article: I’m Not the Grammar Police. But Writing Well Is an Act of Resistance

[MetaBob]

From Benjamin Dreyer, vice president, executive managing editor and copy chief of Random House, and the author of “Dreyer’s English: An Utterly Correct Guide to Clarity and Style.”

I’m not the grammar police. My chief interest is to help writers express themselves, to help them make their writing the best possible version of itself that it can be.

I’ve found myself lately asking: Are people less interested in good writing than they used to be? Anything but, I reply to myself. People — at least the self-selecting group who place themselves in my sight, or who read articles about copy editing — seem to me to be increasingly, acutely interested in good writing.

https://getpocket.com/explore/item/...lice-but-writing-well-is-an-act-of-resistance

Thoughts?

 

[Euphony]

The company he keeps is narrow and attaches worth/ego to writing well (above their peers and "today's society".)

He's not wrong, he's just not taking a landscape view.

*edit* I thought I remembered skimming this so looked over my library checkouts and def did. (though did not earnestly read) It's in a cluster of editing/writerly books so can't say for certain it was this one but there was one recently that was god awful try hard to sell proper style/grammar as something that will change you into a great writer overnight (gotta sell the sizzle to sell the book)

Got the audiobook queued (it supposedly more engaging than the dead tree) and will circle back once I figure out if this was the one or what that other one was.

 

[MetaBob]

The company he keeps is narrow and attaches worth/ego to writing well (above their peers and "today's society".)

He's not wrong, he's just not taking a landscape view.

Landscape view: Who the Eff cares. Well, apparently some do. And among those who care are publishers who pay money for stories. Like him.

Did you read the article?

 

[ElectricBlue]

I don't think he said much at all, to be honest, except "Look at me." He'd go well in the AH .

 

[Euphony]

Landscape view: Who the Eff cares. Well, apparently some do. And among those who care are publishers who pay money for stories. Like him.

Did you read the article?

me the eff Bob. Me.

I've heard him marketing across the podsphere and his NPR interview.

And I'm actually LISTENING (right freaking now) to the steak that is the book he is pimping rather than buying his marketing sizzle.

Fine that your craft focus is getting yours in front of publishers. Many (most?) of us are not.

His thesis extends beyond those who publish or seek to be published so I thought a wider lens was fine for discussion.

*edit* https://www.overdrive.com/media/4708104/dreyers-english

Love for you to join me, Bob.

 

[Euphony]

I don't think he said much at all, to be honest, except "Look at me." He'd go well in the AH .

The book is reading (listening? audiobook) like that and it tracks with how I remember his NPR interview.

He wasn't the worst offender I mentioned earlier though. Sadly, I seem to browse craft works in clusters and they blend together.

 

[SimonDoom]

I don't think he said much at all, to be honest, except "Look at me." He'd go well in the AH .

He's quite different from the great majority of AH contributors in that he actually has decades of experience as a copy editor for a major publishing house. His opinions are based on a mountain of experience editing good books. Most AH contributors give opinions about writing based on nothing but their limited perspectives and experiences, which usually involve no experience whatsoever with editing, and inadequate training in grammar and punctuation. They often give opinions that aren't based on even a modest familiarity with how real, good, published authors actually do their craft.

I thought Dreyer's English was excellent. He has points to make, but he's not preachy. Dreyer occupies a middle ground that lies between Grammar Nazi on the one end and "do whatever you want" on the other, although to the average Lit author he probably seems a little more Nazi-ish. He's a stickler, but not a pedant. His advice is practical rather than formalistic. He's willing to die on some hills, but not on all the familiar ones.

I basically agree with Dreyer. There's plenty of room for flexibility in applying the "rules" of writing, including grammar and punctuation, but as a real, practical matter following certain guidelines almost always will make one's writing better. 98% of Literotica stories would be improved with no sacrifice whatsoever of the author's artistic purpose by adhering at least a little more closely to the suggestions of Dreyer's English.

 

[Euphony]

@SimonDoom The "Things I Like" resource guide is pretty great. I'm chasing down the couple "style guide classics" among the mentions.

He's dropped a couple more resources in text. Merriam-Webster’s Collegiate Dictionary 11th. Little bummed by the out of print style guide mentions but at least he was up front on them.

 

[Paul_Chance]

"What’s left is more important than so-called good English: effective English. English that clearly, strongly and unambiguously — unless you’ve a penchant for ambiguity — conveys from writers’ brains through their typing fingers and onward to the imaginations of their readers what it is that writers are attempting to communicate."

This is correct, as is the overarching theme of the piece.

No matter how good a writer you are, if you improve your craft, you become a better communicator and reach a wider audience. Craft matters.

 

[SimonDoom]

@SimonDoom The "Things I Like" resource guide is pretty great. I'm chasing down the couple "style guide classics" among the mentions.

He's dropped a couple more resources in text. Merriam-Webster’s Collegiate Dictionary 11th. Little bummed by the out of print style guide mentions but at least he was up front on them.

I haven't read any of the works on his Things I Like list. I'll have to check them out.

For an American author, I recommend the Chicago Manual of Style, whatever the most current edition is. I've got Edition 17. It is the most comprehensive style guide I know of for American fiction and it's widely followed. It's as close a thing as there is to a definitive guide on how to write published fiction in the USA. It's extremely long and dense and not at all reader-friendly, but it will answer most questions if you look hard enough.

I still think it's hard to beat Strunk & White. It's not targeted at fiction, but 95+ % of the time its advice applies, regardless, and the best thing about it is that it's so short and easy to absorb. Most Lit authors who have some difficulties with knowing what the rules are could answer 95% of their questions by simply taking the time to absorb the Strunk & White guide.

The perhaps ironically titled Oxford Dictionary of American Usage and Style is a useful style guide in a dictionary format.

The single biggest and most easily correctable problem I see in Literotica stories, and the topic on which commentary in the Author's Hangout most often goes off the rails, is dialogue. There are plenty of good guides out there on how to write better dialogue. One I have and like is Lewis Turco's Dialogue. It's clever and amusing and it covers both the mechanical aspects of writing dialogue and tips on how to make dialogue more realistic and more effective in one's story.

I recently read Lynn Truss's Eats, Shoots & Leaves. It's a humorous paean to sticklerism in punctuation. She's a British author but she points out in relevant places where American and British rules differ.

 

[Euphony]

I haven't read any of the works on his Things I Like list. I'll have to check them out.

I'm in the opening stages of accessing the book but he's growing on me (and is showing himself/the book completely different than marketed. It'll be interesting where it ultimately ends up. It's only worth hearing to say you've heard it/give yourself internal voice for the dead tree. WAY more practical than the early marketing interviews let on. More reference, less theory. I dig.

The "Things I Like" list is intriguing. There were titles I legit never heard of and/or OOP. I dork out on what other's dork out on and that seemed true dork out.

The inet stuff everyone can easily source/decide for themselves.

For an American author, I recommend the Chicago Manual of Style, whatever the most current edition is. I've got Edition 17. It is the most comprehensive style guide I know of for American fiction and it's widely followed. It's as close a thing as there is to a definitive guide on how to write published fiction in the USA. It's extremely long and dense and not at all reader-friendly, but it will answer most questions if you look hard enough.

Invaluable but so dry. Everyone should have and use it. That said, I never recommend it. I did all my "real writing is pain" back in the day. I like more theory/discussion to retain concepts. I like sharing those types of recommendations to others too. It's spoonful of sugar, sure, but ultimately my recommendations are to get others amped so *maybe* the rare few will want to continue discussion.

I still think it's hard to beat Strunk & White. It's not targeted at fiction, but 95+ % of the time its advice applies, regardless, and the best thing about it is that it's so short and easy to absorb. Most Lit authors who have some difficulties with knowing what the rules are could answer 95% of their questions by simply taking the time to absorb the Strunk & White guide.

Better. The 70s editions are particularly fun/accidentally funny. Kinda brain melting how mild mannered it is for a cornerstone of modern writing cannon.

The perhaps ironically titled Oxford Dictionary of American Usage and Style is a useful style guide in a dictionary format.

Wild. Surely I've come across it but it's not in my collection. (went all digi) I'll check it out.

The single biggest and most easily correctable problem I see in Literotica stories, and the topic on which commentary in the Author's Hangout most often goes off the rails, is dialogue. There are plenty of good guides out there on how to write better dialogue. One I have and like is Lewis Turco's Dialogue. It's clever and amusing and it covers both the mechanical aspects of writing dialogue and tips on how to make dialogue more realistic and more effective in one's story.

Dialog books are their own industry these days. The books that aren't singularly focused tend to have a set apart cluster of chapters. McKee is the standard/papa bear but I have a special place in my heart for Marcy Kennedy's more quick n' dirty mini-guides (Dialog and Internal Dialog) You couldn't write a book of 'em but they have a rare ability to keep you cognizant of the gotchas. Both for learners and refreshers (as I age, I need handy efreshers.)

I recently read Lynn Truss's Eats, Shoots & Leaves. It's a humorous paean to sticklerism in punctuation. She's a British author but she points out in relevant places where American and British rules differ.

Saw that thread. Didn't work for me at that time. Unsure why. I leave it in my checkout history so I can stumble on it again later. I'm getting weird with writing books. Not that I've mastered anything but there are SO many books saying much the same things. You can get spoiled into feeling there's maybe a more modernist take (more your style/flavor) that will help you retain concepts better. (abusive Eng studies tuned me out so I'm careful not to let it happen again.)

If this ain't a golden age for both theory and practice, I can't imagine how it will be but so much better.

 

[ElectricBlue]

He's quite different from the great majority of AH contributors in that he actually has decades of experience as a copy editor for a major publishing house. His opinions are based on a mountain of experience editing good books. Most AH contributors give opinions about writing based on nothing but their limited perspectives and experiences, which usually involve no experience whatsoever with editing, and inadequate training in grammar and punctuation. They often give opinions that aren't based on even a modest familiarity with how real, good, published authors actually do their craft.

I reacted to the blah blah blah Washington Post, Editor at Random House, look at me.

The book itself might be fine, but the article was a self-penned puff piece that said nothing, except, "Buy my book." Put something useful in the article, oh great editor, and I might be interested.

The piece was nothing more than advertising. Sorta kinda misused his byline in the Washington Post, if you ask me.

 

[Jackie.Hikaru]

We’ve found ourselves in a world in which, to some, spelling doesn’t count, punctuation doesn’t matter, words are Capitalized at Whim and lies are passed off, in haranguing repetition, as truth.

To some, yes.

I don't get his point. If people are acutely interested in good writing, as he stated, then what are writers resisting against? His conclusion is discordant with his hypothesis.

I've read quite a few of these rule/guide books. I agree with most of what they say.
I always make my way back to the teachings of my two muses of writing.
Strunk & White and Kevin Malone:

Of course, I still have alot to learn.

 

[lovecraft68]

Landscape view: Who the Eff cares. Well, apparently some do. And among those who care are publishers who pay money for stories. Like him.

Did you read the article?

50 Shades was published by vintage books which is an imprint of Random house and proved how much RH cares about quality. The book is poorly written, and they did little to no editing to make it better. So...he can blow his horn all he wants, his company no longer cares, in fact industry wide they are editing less and less.

 

[AwkwardlySet]

For me, it is hard not to agree with his basic premise. What he is talking about has been happening for a long time in all types of art, not just in literature. "Artistic" works without any structure or rules (and often without any value) that are hiding behind the freedom of expression are everywhere. There are plenty of examples in music, film, theater, fine arts...

There is a fine line one has to walk to prevent complete anarchy and cases where the lack of talent is hiding behind "boldness of expression" and such, and becoming grammar police and thus stifling the appearance of new creative styles and expressions. I have no idea if his exact rules are the right measure of this, but I think that the general idea is sound.

 

[Euphony]

His conclusion is discordant with his hypothesis.

This was my initial confusion as well. The marketing makes it seem much more of a theory craft book than it actually is in reading.

It's good, maybe even great for many who click with, what is admittedly, a very straight forward, more modern style.

But the theory parts ring hollow. Not as false assertions, he just never goes much beyond it, at least to the degree interviews would have you think.

It's fine but "why you should bother" is how just about every style book starts out these days.

Strunk & White was doing it long ago, in the classic educational style many of us grew up in.

Intuitive Editing (Tiffany Yates Martin) or Forest For Trees (Lerner) have modern takes more in the Montessori style.

It's worth at least a thumb through but there is just an incongruence with the marketing.

It's mostly a small retelling of many of the same points we've all come across elsewhere. Then all straightforward style guide. This one just hopes to be in the style that might make the concepts land/help in retention those who it hasn't really worked for before now.

Fair enough.

 

[djrip]

I haven't read any style books. But, I've read regular books. I think those cover it.

 

[Euphony]

I haven't read any style books. But, I've read regular books. I think those cover it.

Not saying you are < for not doing so but if it's been a minute, you might be surprised how much more approachable they are these days. Some are legit enjoyable reads.

Maybe throw one in the mix now and then. Audiobook versions can be a good on-ramp too (library Libby app)

 

[djrip]

Not saying you are < for not doing so but if it's been a minute, you might be surprised how much more approachable they are these days. Some are legit enjoyable reads.

Maybe throw one in the mix now and then. Audiobook versions can be a good on-ramp too (library Libby app)

Some of the ones that have been mentioned in AH have sounded fun, for sure

 

[Bramblethorn]

To some, yes.

I don't get his point. If people are acutely interested in good writing, as he stated, then what are writers resisting against? His conclusion is discordant with his hypothesis.

The essay was originally published in 2019. It may make more sense in that context; it certainly did for me, once I found that date.

From the essay:

To engage in what is known in another venue as subtweeting: We’ve found ourselves in a world in which, to some, spelling doesn’t count, punctuation doesn’t matter, words are Capitalized at Whim and lies are passed off, in haranguing repetition, as truth.

It’s wearying. It’s maddening. I couldn’t, a few years ago, have ever imagined that respect for language, a desire to write well, could become an act of resistance. But here we are.

"Subtweeting" = making a comment that's phrased as a general statement but actually directed at somebody specific. Dreyer is talking about a specific person who was very big in 2019, not primarily known as a writer but with a fondness for tweeting.