Voting, comments discussion & philosophies

[Desejo]

Now that tempers have settled a bit I would like to suggest that this thread be used to discuss voting and comments.

We write in a public forum for different reasons - but ALL of them are related to, well, the public. Before anyone protests: if you write only for yourself, there is no need to post it in public. Use Dropbox.

1201, Pandora and others have noted that reading the work of others, seeing what approaches they have used and considering what works or not and why is an excellent way of improving your own poetry.

It is also an excellent way to encourage others - if it is done clearly and helpfully. And of course if they are willing to hear it without flying off the handle.

I am new enough to remember how I felt with reactions to my first poems. If had not been for positive feedback and ratings, I probably would have stopped writing. On the other hand, I remember feeling mystified and angry by some of the comments that I found obtuse or accusations of anon voting, alts etc. I had no idea what all that was about and people, I am sorry to say this, but it did indeed feel like I was the new kid on the block trying to negotiate a peace with a clique.

I think there are solutions to this issue. One is for us to offer this thread as a place where newcomers can read our approaches to voting. I'm also interested in talking about other solutions - like self indicated levels of feedback wanted, etc.

OK - this is enough for now to start this discussion. Thoughts?

 

[butters]

hello, desejo

i've always found the best way for writers to feel a part of the community a forum offers is by reading and commenting and posting. i've spent time at several forums before Lit, and they almost always had that 'post 3 comments to every poem you post' rule. Lit bypasses that, so whilst i'm usually pretty laid back and welcoming to new members there is this cumulative thing that builds ... new posters dropping stuff, expecting (even demanding) feedback, with little or no effort on their part to reciprocate. all take and no give. as i said, i tend to handle that well till slurs are thrown around at this community i, and most here, have helped to build over time.

i was also a mod here for about a year or so till full-time employment meant too little time to offer the kind of in-depth responses and attention i felt necessary for me to give the title its due. i appreciate the time ANY mods can give this place, as there's so little free time when you are working, and it eats away at your own time to pursue your own writing.

voting: when i read i will usually vote, if it's 3 or above for me. very very rarely will i vote less, preferring not to in most cases and though i still might offer suggestions they're really not my cup of tea - so that goes for a whole bunch of the slapped-up crappy porn writes that too often dominate the submissions.

for me the 3 is 'a pleasant enough but average, plenty of room for improvement and if you're new to writing keep writing!'.

a 4 is 'liked this a lot, ok could be improved but can't all of ours, well worth reading and will look out for more by you'.

a 5 i keep for ones i find head and shoulders above the rest, ones i feel i have learned from, been shown something that's broadened my experiences, stuff that's blown me away and inspired me.

 

[twelveoone]

1201, Pandora and others have noted that reading the work of others, seeing what approaches they have used and considering what works or not and why is an excellent way of improving your own poetry.

It is also an excellent way to encourage others - if it is done clearly and helpfully. And of course if they are willing to hear it without flying off the handle.

If the poet/reader does a walk though new poems on a regular basis, they should
learn quite a bit, that perhaps they will not learn otherwise. They should look the comments themselves, the best are the ones where the comments disagree and mention some detail. Often they are on the best poems and the best poets are commenting. Now you have two views, neither is right or wrong, go see for yourself what makes most sense for you development. They also learn what is bullshit, 4 raves with nothing specific, you are Not going to learn anything there.
I rarely sugarcoat, only if I see a bad poem, that some new writer has tried some structure (not necessarily formal) or nice turns of phrase that didn't quite work out.
I will tell you what I scored, most are 5's, sometimes I won't vote, I figured that my words wrecked your day enough. Some 4's to get your attention, a 3 if you bored me to tears, and once a 2 after reading a dozen jerk off scribbles.
I do not vote unless I at least let you know I was there. New writers, voting doesn't mean shit, unless you know where it came from.

 

[HarryHill]

I'll put in my 2 cents (that's about all it is worth)
Speaking for myself as a Poet? and Writer?: I value all comments ...the bad ones tell me I have put a POS out for all to see. No comments mean my contribution was completely forgettable. The informative ones mean that at least I have caught the readers interest and did SOMETHING right.
..
I tend to use this method in my own comments.

..
Harry ....registered CW

 

[butters]

I'll put in my 2 cents (that's about all it is worth)
Speaking for myself as a Poet? and Writer?: I value all comments ...the bad ones tell me I have put a POS out for all to see. No comments mean my contribution was completely forgettable. The informative ones mean that at least I have caught the readers interest and did SOMETHING right.
..
I tend to use this method in my own comments.

..
Harry ....registered CW

just to say, harry, that sometimes poems get missed due to time restrictions, or perhaps the reader feels there's too much they'd wish to address in the time they have. don't automatically assume you've put out a POS in the same way as it's always important to consider the source of any comment... if it comes from someone whose own writing you respect and whose judgement you trust (you can only develop that instinct over time and with familiarity) then take from it what you can.

 

[Desejo]

..
Harry ....registered CW

I'm outing you on CW Harry. Forgive me but it's too good not to share: CW = Comments Whore.

"Registered" brings up another idea: is there some reason that Lit thinks it's ok to ask you what your fetishes are, but does NOT ask you about your preferences for comments?

When you submit a poem you have to identify it as erotic or non-erotic (I don't know about everyone else, but that has not always been a complete no brainer for me). What if you also had to fill in a quick assessment of your own level, how tough skinned you are, whether you want public or private comments..etc? It's not without problems of course, but it certainly would make the job of reviewers clearer.

Rating is not an easy thing to do. Neither are comments. I find I actually tend to rate the writers I consider to be more accomplished harder than new ones. If I see a poem by GM or Demure101, for example, that is heads and shoulders above the overall quality scale of Lit but not quite there for that author, I am going to give them a 4. Not a 5. Conversely, if someone new shows up and does a singsongy I love you until the end of time poem with a few sparks here and there of creativity - then I might also give them a 4.

Now, is this "fair" overall? If one has the attitude that it's the ratings that count, then no. But it makes sense to me.

Thus a self rating would help me to be able to do that more transparently: eg. As a "5" writer, this is a "4" poem. If you were a 3 writer, it would be a 5.

That said: provided we all stick to our own systems, it should even out in the end.

 

[HarryHill]

I'm outing you on CW Harry. Forgive me but it's too good not to share: CW = Comments Whore.

..
Use me as you wil but give me my stipend

... but does NOT ask you about your preferences for comments?
..
............Actually you can opt out when you submit a work of prose or verse.

 

[Desejo]

..
Use me as you wil but give me my stipend

... but does NOT ask you about your preferences for comments?
..
............Actually you can opt out when you submit a work of prose or verse.

Stipend? Wazz that? I think you are in the wrong section of lit....

Opting out or not still doesn't clarify what kind of feedback you are comfortable with.
Some have chosen to opt out to avoid the sometimes frustrating voting games in general, but whether or not they want comments by PM is not clear.

And for those who do opt for comments, I just think it would be useful to have info like "go easy on me, I'm new" , "I'm interested in learning, tell me what doesn't work and what does" or "I'm just throwing my stuff out there to see if people like it and have no intention of ever changing a word" would be useful.

 

[HarryHill]

Stipend: Synonyms: allowance, salary, payment, pay, wage, ((reward)), scholarship, fellowship

 

[PandoraGlitters]

My philosophy is simple: I vote the poem and not the poet. Voting the poet creates popularity contests and proliferations of alts. Besides who would dare truly to say they know what another poet is capable of? Pfft.

I have no idea what ANYONE is capable of, but I certainly encourage people to push themselves by giving detailed feedback when it is requested and as able.

I do know that some poets save their best work back for print publications and why should I punish those poets with a lower score than some beginning writer who is exploring the devices of poetry? I shouldn't.

You all, of course, do what makes sense to you but so long as people are voting on the basis of who wrote the poem, it will not be a fair process. And again, who gives a fuck? It isn't important.

 

[bronzeage]

I confess. I don't place votes on poems. The rating system is inadequate for any useful purpose. I don't know of one which is any better.

Since I have taken on the Tuesday Poem recommendation duties, I have faithfully read and considered the half dozen or so poems which win the mardi lotto. Every poem gets a comment, not just the one's I thought were worth pointing out for special attention. After the several weeks(months?) I have done this, the comments are at times repetitious, but so are the poems.

I think my standards are broad and liberal. I'm not looking for the Rhyme of the Ancient Mariner. There is no grade and no money riding on the deal, so it's strictly for funzies(opposite of keeps).

 

[Desejo]

My philosophy is simple: I vote the poem and not the poet. Voting the poet creates popularity contests and proliferations of alts. Besides who would dare truly to say they know what another poet is capable of? Pfft.

I have no idea what ANYONE is capable of, but I certainly encourage people to push themselves by giving detailed feedback when it is requested and as able.

I do know that some poets save their best work back for print publications and why should I punish those poets with a lower score than some beginning writer who is exploring the devices of poetry? I shouldn't.

You all, of course, do what makes sense to you but so long as people are voting on the basis of who wrote the poem, it will not be a fair process. And again, who gives a fuck? It isn't important.

This is exactly what I was looking for in the discussion, and an excellent point about grading on a curve, so to speak. I'm going to think more about this and come up with a system that works for me.

It would be nice if everyone were able to discount voting completely - but that just is not the case.

While we are on that subject, is there anyway to change a vote once cast? Once or twice I have messed up voting because of overactive mouse movements...or simply reconsidered.

 

[bronzeage]

This is exactly what I was looking for in the discussion, and an excellent point about grading on a curve, so to speak. I'm going to think more about this and come up with a system that works for me.

It would be nice if everyone were able to discount voting completely - but that just is not the case.

While we are on that subject, is there anyway to change a vote once cast? Once or twice I have messed up voting because of overactive mouse movements...or simply reconsidered.

I believe votes in the story and poetry forums are irrevocable.

 

[champagne1982]

OK - this is enough for now to start this discussion. Thoughts?

Long ago I turned off the voting on my submissions page (apart from those few poems I managed to actually post for the Poetry Survivor) and have been liberated ever since.

When I have time, I try to give a little feedback to those poets with a thread asking for thoughts on their poem. If the piece is not posted on the thread I won't go looking for it and I won't comment directly on the poem's comments field either. I loathe the idea that the POET has the option (yea, the responsibility) of moderating the feedback they receive and could blithely erase my opinion of their work.

I take relatively considerable effort to give thoughtful and constructive critique, so will usually only do so here in this forum where I have the option to edit or delete any posts I make. This also eliminates the need to rate a poem, that's a lot of hoo-ey anyhow. If you freely hand out fives you never have your votes removed, but dole out a one and see how long it stands as a legitimate rating on any post in the story indices.

So, I refrain from voting.
I don't bother to comment on many poems over on the story index.
I generally try to leave constructive comments when I reply to a thread.
If you don't take up the conversation after I post to your thread, I generally won't add to any new thread started for feedback.

BUT, as always, these are my opinions only. They are my gift to you, take what you may find valuable and discard the rest. You are the owner of anything you create and as such, you have the ultimate say in what it ends up as.

Take heart...

 

[twelveoone]

I'm outing you on CW

Rating is not an easy thing to do. Neither are comments. I find I actually tend to rate the writers I consider to be more accomplished harder than new ones. If I see a poem by GM or Demure101, for example, that is heads and shoulders above the overall quality scale of Lit but not quite there for that author, I am going to give them a 4. Not a 5. Conversely, if someone new shows up and does a singsongy I love you until the end of time poem with a few sparks here and there of creativity - then I might also give them a 4.

Now, is this "fair" overall? If one has the attitude that it's the ratings that count, then no. But it makes sense to me.

this is an interesting problem, and these two are prefect examples. GM has made a couple horrible flubs, i will tell him that, but not downgrade the score, the flubs are usually the result of an overreaching experiment. I admire that, it's interesting. Demure does experiment, but too often i get the feeling it is a walkthough, too many walkthoughs too many submissions, why not make the language more interesting. That is one of the hardest parts. Right now she is writing just above LCD, picking the low hanging fruit, to clichefy the point. Sometimes a 4 get's their attention.

 

[PandoraGlitters]

this is an interesting problem, and these two are prefect examples. GM has made a couple horrible flubs, i will tell him that, but not downgrade the score, the flubs are usually the result of an overreaching experiment. I admire that, it's interesting. Demure does experiment, but too often i get the feeling it is a walkthough, too many walkthoughs too many submissions, why not make the language more interesting. That is one of the hardest parts. Right now she is writing just above LCD, picking the low hanging fruit, to clichefy the point. Sometimes a 4 get's their attention.

I agree Demure posts too many poems for me to keep up with. I suppose it is good to write a lot but it is too much for me to read. Still I would not give her a different score because of who she is because of the reasons stated. It makes for popularity contests and a proliferation of alts. Also, she may be saving her best work for publication and why should I punish her for that?

If the point were to rate the poet, the score would be on the poet's submission page. The point is to rate the poem so I do. I do not vote if it is under a 3 because, most likely, I haven't made it all the way through the painful experience of reading to the bottom. I do not vote every day. I vote occasionally.

If anyone tries to tell you that I low voted her poem to get back at her or because I don't like her, she's blowing smoke up your ass and calling you puppet. Some people like that. Who am I to judge?

 

[Desejo]

I agree Demure posts too many poems for me to keep up with. I suppose it is good to write a lot but it is too much for me to read. Still I would not give her a different score because of who she is because of the reasons stated. It makes for popularity contests and a proliferation of alts. Also, she may be saving her best work for publication and why should I punish her for that?

If the point were to rate the poet, the score would be on the poet's submission page. The point is to rate the poem so I do. I do not vote if it is under a 3 because, most likely, I haven't made it all the way through the painful experience of reading to the bottom. I do not vote every day. I vote occasionally.

If anyone tries to tell you that I low voted her poem to get back at her or because I don't like her, she's blowing smoke up your ass and calling you puppet. Some people like that. Who am I to judge?

I think Demure is posting work she wrote previously. If not, then she has a hell of a muse riding her back. Hard to be sure since she chooses not to participate here - which is of course her right.

The best work for publication angle did not occur to me, but I think it's a false problem. If you submit on Lit for votes, you have to be willing to be voted upon. It's not punishment. It's of course impossible to make the "for you, this is a four" call until you know the poet's work.

The idea of having the opportunity to rate or comment on the poet's overall portfolio is interesting.

 

[twelveoone]

I agree Demure posts too many poems for me to keep up with. I suppose it is good to write a lot but it is too much for me to read. Still I would not give her a different score because of who she is because of the reasons stated. It makes for popularity contests and a proliferation of alts. Also, she may be saving her best work for publication and why should I punish her for that?

Who am I to judge?

fair enough, except too much, same ol same ol, cardinal sin
my credo, don't bore, too much, or too often.

you got my interest, or you're attempting to get my interest, you got a 5, and even then i get hit, from the psycho that wrote the damn thing because they didn't like the comment (the red) and the other psycho that wasn't happy with the fact i had these 5's out like candy (the white), i just wish he'd take the sheet of his face
Hey, chip
get it sheetface, ah never mind you would had to been there
oh, you're a Brit, never mind, would take too long to explain, not funny eek

 

[PandoraGlitters]

I think Demure is posting work she wrote previously. If not, then she has a hell of a muse riding her back. Hard to be sure since she chooses not to participate here - which is of course her right.

The best work for publication angle did not occur to me, but I think it's a false problem. If you submit on Lit for votes, you have to be willing to be voted upon. It's not punishment. It's of course impossible to make the "for you, this is a four" call until you know the poet's work.

The idea of having the opportunity to rate or comment on the poet's overall portfolio is interesting.

What I propose is that it is false to think you know a poet at all. You do not know what anyone is capable of any more than I do.

Voting the poet creates popularity contests, alts, ill feelings and assumes that the voter has god-like capabilities to "know" the potential of a writer. Hell, here you don't even know who the writer is! Likely the person you give a 4 to as an encouragement is actually some other writer's alt. So again, voting the poet and not the poem causes more harm than good.

 

[Desejo]

What I propose is that it is false to think you know a poet at all. You do not know what anyone is capable of any more than I do.

Voting the poet creates popularity contests, alts, ill feelings and assumes that the voter has god-like capabilities to "know" the potential of a writer. Hell, here you don't even know who the writer is! Likely the person you give a 4 to as an encouragement is actually some other writer's alt. So again, voting the poet and not the poem causes more harm than good.

Trust me, I am well aware of my lack of god-like capacities. I am also aware that one of the most helpful shocks I ever got was when an English teacher in high school had the chutzpah to grade my normally straight A papers a C - because I could do better. And I could, and did.

One of the key principles in evaluation and award of contracts where I worked before was judgement of each proposal in its own right. Not against each other. It sounds good, but in practice it's completely unrealistic. There is always comparison. A human nature thing, I think.

Taken in the context of lit, this voting thing is the root of the issues of clique accusations, rating wars, alts etc. Which is why it's worth thinking about seriously - and I am considering your points seriously.

 

[PandoraGlitters]

When a teacher awards a grade for an essay, she is grading an assignment which she has created. She knows the end result. She has a rubric, a standard, by which to grade. Trust that in current academic settings those rubrics are treated very very seriously. I may use additional commentary to make an A feel like a C or a C feel like an A, but the grade is the grade. If I do otherwise, I will be fired for favoritism.

 

[PandoraGlitters]

hard to be sure since she chooses not to participate here - which is of course her right.

Oh I wouldn't be too sure of that. I know of a few poets who have upwards of five alts. That would not be me. The only name I've used at Lit in 6 years is this one.

By the way, Desejo, I think it was a great impulse to start this thread. I would much rather have an open discussion than assumptions and whispers so thanks for getting this going. I promise I really will provide resources (better than Barry Manilow) for the October Form poetry challenge tonight.

 

[twelveoone]

What I propose is that it is false to think you know a poet at all. You do not know what anyone is capable of any more than I do.

Voting the poet creates popularity contests, alts, ill feelings and assumes that the voter has god-like capabilities to "know" the potential of a writer. Hell, here you don't even know who the writer is! Likely the person you give a 4 to as an encouragement is actually some other writer's alt. So again, voting the poet and not the poem causes more harm than good.

you two may be talking about two different things, while I generally agree with everything you said, it is very easy to pick up aspects of a poet's art. poetry is establishment of a pattern and disruption of the pattern, there are patterns to these patterns, and so on, word choices, etc. if shown 3 poems one by Angeline, one by Desijo, one by Demure, my guess is i would be able to pick them out. how, both Ang and Dem are both linear writers, Des is not, Ang has better word choice than Dem. Dem is a metrist. the other two are not. they would have to camouflage their writings pretty extensively. did i pick up on the fact that you were an experienced writer?
some people are template writers, some are not. there are various "machines" that do these things. there is a predictability to the pattern. but nothing is so wonderful as the old sloppy meat computer, i spent 8 years trying to discover the "magic" of one writer here. since gone. (why?)
it could be one way of judging just how good a writer is, how long would it take to come up with a reasonable facsimile of their styles, i found one person here that is truly impressive as to the variety of styles, all done rather well. only thing, sometimes i can't be sure it is him.

but one the other hand, there is a lot of just vote for the "poet", here is an asshole comment
03/08/11

and so it goes....

those 2 heathen bitches in the Poetry forum always whining about 'anonymous" but where is there judgmental attitude when "anonymous" leaves a GOOD comment? ABSENT, like their brains...and yes, I am referring to that sorry excuse for a moderator they have now.

I liked your poem, assign me annonymous, too
hmmm
i wonder if it is the same little pin prick, that hit one of mine about that time
and as said in another thread, i got a score of zero with no reads

so yeh, you may be talking about two different things here.

 

[PandoraGlitters]

This "sorry excuse for a moderator" at least knows the difference between their and there. Consider the source, number, and know that this individual, the individual behind my avatar name, wishes no one harm on this Forum. I do not gripe about Anonymous (find a post in which I have and I'll buy you ice cream). I don't really give a crap about the voting. It's all ludicrous. But when I vote I do vote the poem and not the poet. That's simple.

Happy trails.

D.

 

[twelveoone]

This "sorry excuse for a moderator" at least knows the difference between their and there. Consider the source, number, and know that this individual, the individual behind my avatar name, wishes no one harm on this Forum. I do not gripe about Anonymous (find a post in which I have and I'll buy you ice cream). I don't really give a crap about the voting. It's all ludicrous. But when I vote I do vote the poem and not the poet. That's simple.

Happy trails.

D.

I don't think they were referring to you, read the date, some one cares a great deal about voting, about making a point. found that on an old poem, that i guess wasn't quite high enough. Now it is. And the fucking jerks hit me, and try to pin it on me.
Now do you think I have a reason to be pissed.