Vote Removal

[Salacious_Scribe]

Based on what I've read on this thread, this is what I suspect...

There are vote sweeps that catch obvious fraud... Someone votes anon multiple times from the same device, after deleting cookies. Those sweeps occur when requested and probably at regular intervals.

Every year or so, a deep sweep occurs that catches fake votes made by those who try to cover their tracks. Multiple devices, different IP addresses, bots etc...

 

[KeithD]

Clear messaging isn't one of this Site's strengths, but this might be one instance where less messaging is better, if it otherwise would tip off would be fraud voters how to beat the system.

True. I don't care about the vote sweeping. I find the "let them eat cake" lack of connection and shilling for them irritating.

 

[SimonDoom]

True. I don't care about the vote sweeping. I find the "let them eat cake" lack of connection and shilling for them irritating.

I think "shilling for them" goes a little too far, in terms of how people describe what they do. I don't know anything about them other than the tiny bits of information we get from them, which is, well, tiny. But I'm inclined to cut them some slack because 1) the Site works for me, and I think it works for most, whatever its defects, 2) I don't know anything about what it's like to be them or do what they do, so I'm reluctant to judge them in the absence of full knowledge, and 3) I'm not paying anything so I don't feel like my standing to complain, or my case for complaint, is that strong. I don't care enough.

Just a little bit more effort at communication, I think, would help a lot. I agree with you about that.

 

[RejectReality]

When the number of people who don't find certain individuals endlessly irritating could be counted on the fingers of one hand of a poorly funded high school's shop teacher, I'd say it's even Steven.

 

[Ginlover]

I think the mistake is viewing it as multiple sweeps.

It makes sense as a single sweep if you think about the sequence of how it would work. Assume to begin with that the site doesn't normally sweep things from all dates because it would take too long. Next, assume that this time, because of whatever was discovered or whatever new software they have, they are sweeping from all dates. Therefore, it's going to have to take place over a period of time because it has to happen during periods of low site activity.

Now, think about how a sweep is going to organize itself. It's not going to do it by author or by story. It's going to do it by ISP or by pattern, or by whatever method it's using to identify the fraudulent votes. Let's just assume it's doing it by ISP. The program is going down the list and eliminating all votes from one ISP after another. Those ISP's votes may be spread out between different stories, or not. But that perfectly explains why it is ongoing. If this explanation is accurate, it will eventually run through all ISPs and the sweep will end.

To do that the site would have to keep a record of voters IP address for several years. I'm not sure I could bele8ve they are discovering mass voting fixed IP addresses from years ago and now one by one sweeping multiple stories to remove those votes.

It's more likely an auto programme has gone wrong and us taking off the top and bottom vote on every story it finds. I suspect it's a site glitch and eventually the but will get fixed if enough people flag it.

At thus rate in 2 months one of my stories will have a negative number of votes lol

 

[RejectReality]

Again, a query can't go rogue and accidentally remove data it's not been instructed to find.

If you're basing this top and bottom vote thing on the reports that none of the scores are changing, then that's not the case. That's only being brought up regarding stories with large vote counts, or generally as in "there's been almost no change". Scores are changing.

Besides, if an ( impossible ) rogue query was doing this, it would change the scores. The weight of any low end score vs. a 5 when most scores are above 4.0 would cause a score change within the first couple of passes on any story without more than a couple thousand votes, and all the scores would be going up.

To do that the site would have to keep a record of voters IP address for several years. I'm not sure I could bele8ve they are discovering mass voting fixed IP addresses from years ago and now one by one sweeping multiple stories to remove those votes.

It's more likely an auto programme has gone wrong and us taking off the top and bottom vote on every story it finds. I suspect it's a site glitch and eventually the but will get fixed if enough people flag it.

At thus rate in 2 months one of my stories will have a negative number of votes lol

 

[Enchantment_of_Nyx]

I've always thought the theory that the sweeps remove votes because they are low or because they are high was rather suspect. It seems more likely that the sweeps remove votes because of a voter's suspicious activity (like voting for 20 stories in 10 minutes or something), and that those suspect votes tend to be a 1 or a 5. In other words, I think that theory depends on causation that's backward.

I suppose there could be an algorithm that targets dramatic outliers, but that would have the effect of making any score resistant to change and that doesn't seem to be what happens.

 

[SimonDoom]

I've always thought the theory that the sweeps remove votes because they are low or because they are high was rather suspect. It seems more likely that the sweeps remove votes because of a voter's suspicious activity (like voting for 20 stories in 10 minutes or something), and that those suspect votes tend to be a 1 or a 5. In other words, I think that theory depends on causation that's backward.

I suppose there could be an algorithm that targets dramatic outliers, but that would have the effect of making any score resistant to change and that doesn't seem to be what happens.

I agree. It makes no sense to delete votes based on the number. If someone reads a story in full and then gives it a 1, who is to say that they are wrong?

I lost another 38 total votes in 12 hours since my last entry. So the rate seems to be fairly steady. Once again, nearly all losses are concentrated in a small number of stories, the same ones as before, which is curious.

 

[RejectReality]

It's been almost 2 days now, and my vote total has changed -11 out of 140,000+ There's been zero change since I did that quick look at about 6 hours after yesterday's initial snapshot.

My score averages ( out to 6 decimal places ) haven't changed as Les or Dark. It has gone up as RR, and a quick scan shows that's caused by Closing going up .01.

Only the two pen names with recent activity have been affected. Dark still hasn't lost a single vote. Even assuming that my most recent track's vote per view is an absolute daily occurrence, ( which it most certainly isn't ) That would be less than 5 votes swept from Dark.

Considering the bulk of my totals as Dark are 250 votes or less, to have no change in score would require that any votes swept were replaced with nearly identical vote between snapshots. The most logical conclusion is that nothing was swept, and no new votes came in. It's an inactive pen name wholly confined to low readership categories ( Sci-Fi, Humor, and Chain Stories ) which further supports that hypothesis.

Minimal favorite/bookmark activity on RR and Les over the last couple of days suggests they're not getting much action right now either, which is typical for me over the weekend. I expect activity to pick back up late Monday and continue through the rest of the work week. Neither pen name has posted a story since the "Love the Ones" contest, so they're right there on the border of inactive as well — especially Les which has far more low readership category stories than high readership ones.

That likely explains why I'm showing more vote loss from Les than RR. As RR, I am picking up votes on the back of some high-profile Incest stories and an Anal story in the Hall of Fame despite the minimal activity.

In short, I'm barely seeing anything out of the ordinary so far. The kicker will be if I see an increase in favorite/bookmark activity during the week and don't see the vote totals remain stagnant or go up in response.

 

[LexxRuthless]

It's been almost 2 days now, and my vote total has changed -11 out of 140,000+ There's been zero change since I did that quick look at about 6 hours after yesterday's initial snapshot.

My score averages ( out to 6 decimal places ) haven't changed as Les or Dark. It has gone up as RR, and a quick scan shows that's caused by Closing going up .01.

Only the two pen names with recent activity have been affected. Dark still hasn't lost a single vote. Even assuming that my most recent track's vote per view is an absolute daily occurrence, ( which it most certainly isn't ) That would be less than 5 votes swept from Dark.

Considering the bulk of my totals as Dark are 250 votes or less, to have no change in score would require that any votes swept were replaced with nearly identical vote between snapshots. The most logical conclusion is that nothing was swept, and no new votes came in. It's an inactive pen name wholly confined to low readership categories ( Sci-Fi, Humor, and Chain Stories ) which further supports that hypothesis.

Minimal favorite/bookmark activity on RR and Les over the last couple of days suggests they're not getting much action right now either, which is typical for me over the weekend. I expect activity to pick back up late Monday and continue through the rest of the work week. Neither pen name has posted a story since the "Love the Ones" contest, so they're right there on the border of inactive as well — especially Les which has far more low readership category stories than high readership ones.

That likely explains why I'm showing more vote loss from Les than RR. As RR, I am picking up votes on the back of some high-profile Incest stories and an Anal story in the Hall of Fame despite the minimal activity.

In short, I'm barely seeing anything out of the ordinary so far. The kicker will be if I see an increase in favorite/bookmark activity during the week and don't see the vote totals remain stagnant or go up in response.

Are you looking at the breakdown by individual story? My overall numbers have taken a slight dip every day, but that is with some stories showing a net increase of 1-3 votes, while others are losing votes at a slightly higher rate. Only six of my stories have a net increase from where they were on July 9th, but four of those are down from where they were a week ago.

Overall, I have 1,462 fewer votes on my stories than I did on July 9th. That's only 1.45% of what my total was. However, with the number of views my stories have had over that time, I should have been able to expect something like 2,465 MORE votes. So, it seems probable that the total loss of votes has actually been right around 3,927. Still "only" 3.98% of my July 9th total, but that's a substantial chunk.

 

[RejectReality]

Shit, I must have looked at RR backwards when blinking between the two spreadsheets. I'm actually up three votes overall in that pen name.

-2 -1 -2 -1 -2 -2 -1 -2
+1 +2 +1 +2 +1 +1 +1 +2 +1 +1 +3 <-The hall of fame story

Les:

-4 -3 -3 -3
+1 +1 +1 +1 +1

Dark:

No change on any totals.

Again, I barely see anything out of the ordinary. Slightly above what I would expect from typical sweep activity.

 

[RejectReality]

A large part of your list is multi-part stories. You can't expect chapter 2+ of any of those to remotely adhere to that overall average on a short term basis. You'd have to break that down by the number of views each chapter is getting, and even then it's a large ask to expect the vote to view ratio to be accurate on such a short term basis.

Peaks and troughs are especially prevalent on multi-chapter stories, because a lot of the readership comes from people who enjoy it reading straight through several chapters and voting in a short period of time, while most people look at chapter 1 and back-click.

Assuming your long-term vote to view average is going to pan out on a daily, weekly, or even monthly basis is really optimistic.

Are you looking at the breakdown by individual story? My overall numbers have taken a slight dip every day, but that is with some stories showing a net increase of 1-3 votes, while others are losing votes at a slightly higher rate. Only six of my stories have a net increase from where they were on July 9th, but four of those are down from where they were a week ago.

Overall, I have 1,462 fewer votes on my stories than I did on July 9th. That's only 1.45% of what my total was. However, with the number of views my stories have had over that time, I should have been able to expect something like 2,465 MORE votes. So, it seems probable that the total loss of votes has actually been right around 3,927. Still "only" 3.98% of my July 9th total, but that's a substantial chunk.

 

[NotWise]

On net, since July 17th when my votes started to drop, my stories have lost 132 votes. They range from -22 votes on one story to +1 on several.

The more votes a story had, the more it's lost, with many stories dropping around 2%. The average drop, including the net zeros and positives is less than 1%.

I've had a few small changes in score, not nothing very significant. I may have gained more from new votes than lost.

So, while the behavior is odd, it really doesn't look like something to worry about.

 

[RejectReality]

Taking that -13 over two days as RR, multiplying it by 15 to get 195 is 0.22% of my vote total over 30 days.

Assuming ( extremely optimistically ) that my vote to view ratio excluding stories more than five years old is accurate over such a short period of time, I could expect 81 votes over those two days. That's about 1215 when extrapolated out to thirty days. So 1215 ( invisible losses ) + 195 ( visible losses ) = 1410 or 1.6% of my vote total under an absolute best case scenario of vote gain.

Considering only about 1/4 of my stories show any change in total, most of that invisible loss would have to be 1 for 1 new vote to swept votes, which is improbable.

 

[TxRad]

With over 250 stories under this name, it is hard to track any vote numbers even if I cared to. The only thing I look at even on a monthly basis is the number of stories without a red H and the number of stories under 4.0. Of those, both have decreased slightly. Another thing i have noticed is that normally, I have two, maybe three stories at 4.49. I presently have six.

What does that tell me? Scores are up slightly, is my best guess.

Something else I've noticed that I never had before is that two profiles who have favorited me came up as profile banned.

 

[SimonDoom]

Are you looking at the breakdown by individual story? My overall numbers have taken a slight dip every day, but that is with some stories showing a net increase of 1-3 votes, while others are losing votes at a slightly higher rate. Only six of my stories have a net increase from where they were on July 9th, but four of those are down from where they were a week ago.

Overall, I have 1,462 fewer votes on my stories than I did on July 9th. That's only 1.45% of what my total was. However, with the number of views my stories have had over that time, I should have been able to expect something like 2,465 MORE votes. So, it seems probable that the total loss of votes has actually been right around 3,927. Still "only" 3.98% of my July 9th total, but that's a substantial chunk.

Your percentages don't surprise me that much. You're still relatively new as an author here, but you've achieved extraordinarily high view and vote totals in a short time. Since your stories are not that old, they haven't been subjected to as many sweeps. So it makes sense that you, more than others, would see very high vote losses as a result of whatever sweep methods are being undertaken. I wouldn't worry about it too much, if I were you, unless you are seeing weird things happen to your story scores, which, from what you've said so far, you aren't. You're experiencing a slightly more extreme version of what I'm experiencing, but I suspect the difference between you and me is simply that a higher percentage of your stories are newer and you have more total votes than I do.

 

[NotWise]

Considering only about 1/4 of my stories show any change in total, most of that invisible loss would have to be 1 for 1 new vote to swept votes, which is improbable.

Not as improbable as you might think. It happened on two or three of my thirty stories. I'd get one vote swept, then someone would gift it a new vote. Net zero. Those would be stories in low-vote categories.

 

[Wilson Spalding]

Something else I've noticed that I never had before is that two profiles who have favorited me came up as profile banned.

I'd be willing to bet those are troll accounts.

Pretty sure some of the individuals that favorited me use that term more in the context of "favorite target." I submit and they're there like shot, creaming their keyboard to drop the 1-bomb.

 

[LexxRuthless]

Checked my story stats again, and I was actually UP 7 votes overall. However, when I look at the individual stories, 12 of them have lost 1-3 votes. Now I feel like I've spent WAY too much time on this thing, but I can't help but feel more concerned the longer it goes on.

I feel like one of those scientists in a sci-fi movie, living out in the boonies. I read a text from a colleague who nervously expressed some concern about anomalous readings in the ozone layer. I scoffed, thinking there must be a mistake. Then I looked at my own readings and scowled. That shouldn't be possible...

I mean, we've got an enormous electro-magnetic field surrounding the earth. There's no way the ozone layer should be getting stripped away like this. I posted my own readings and expressed my concern, but what I'm hearing from my more experienced colleagues feels like, "Oh, no, no. That's not possible. We've got a huge electro-magnetic field protecting the ozone layer from the kind of depletion you describe. There are simpler explanations, like normal variance in the levels of oxygen at altitude. Natural processes sometimes give us spikes in ozone thickness. You're overreacting."

But I keep taking readings, and what I'm seeing screams "ozone depletion," like it's being stripped away by the solar wind. I know, it doesn't make sense, but that's what my readings are telling me. Do I really think inimical aliens are behind it? No, of course not. But I can't really rule it out, either. As far as I can tell, nobody's seen this sort of thing before.

Early on, I put in a concerned call to NASA, but what I got back (a day later) was a recording. "Thank you for your interest in NASA. We appreciate your call, and hope you continue to enjoy following our exploration of the universe around us..."

Not helpful, and it makes sense that they wouldn't tell me if they were doing some sort of experiment in the upper atmosphere that would deplete the ozone layer. Other scientists, whose work I really respect, keep proposing other hypotheses to explain away my results. I can't help but point out small flaws in those and hope I'm not pissing them off...

* * *

Okay, so I went on far too long with that analogy. But that is what it feels like to me. I'm worried about the effect this will have if it continues, and on a personal level I've been spending far too much time poring over story statistics and almost none writing anything new. It is super frustrating.

 

[Ginlover]

I've lost more votes today.
It has impacted scores
One story had decreased again and one has increased.

As my stories have 40-270 votes on each one the 2% daily vote removal is effect my stories.

My views have gone up a few hundred but as fast as a new vote is added it is removed plus more of the original votes.

 

[SimonDoom]

Checked my story stats again, and I was actually UP 7 votes overall. However, when I look at the individual stories, 12 of them have lost 1-3 votes. Now I feel like I've spent WAY too much time on this thing, but I can't help but feel more concerned the longer it goes on.

I feel like one of those scientists in a sci-fi movie, living out in the boonies. I read a text from a colleague who nervously expressed some concern about anomalous readings in the ozone layer. I scoffed, thinking there must be a mistake. Then I looked at my own readings and scowled. That shouldn't be possible...

I mean, we've got an enormous electro-magnetic field surrounding the earth. There's no way the ozone layer should be getting stripped away like this. I posted my own readings and expressed my concern, but what I'm hearing from my more experienced colleagues feels like, "Oh, no, no. That's not possible. We've got a huge electro-magnetic field protecting the ozone layer from the kind of depletion you describe. There are simpler explanations, like normal variance in the levels of oxygen at altitude. Natural processes sometimes give us spikes in ozone thickness. You're overreacting."

But I keep taking readings, and what I'm seeing screams "ozone depletion," like it's being stripped away by the solar wind. I know, it doesn't make sense, but that's what my readings are telling me. Do I really think inimical aliens are behind it? No, of course not. But I can't really rule it out, either. As far as I can tell, nobody's seen this sort of thing before.

Early on, I put in a concerned call to NASA, but what I got back (a day later) was a recording. "Thank you for your interest in NASA. We appreciate your call, and hope you continue to enjoy following our exploration of the universe around us..."

Not helpful, and it makes sense that they wouldn't tell me if they were doing some sort of experiment in the upper atmosphere that would deplete the ozone layer. Other scientists, whose work I really respect, keep proposing other hypotheses to explain away my results. I can't help but point out small flaws in those and hope I'm not pissing them off...

* * *

Okay, so I went on far too long with that analogy. But that is what it feels like to me. I'm worried about the effect this will have if it continues, and on a personal level I've been spending far too much time poring over story statistics and almost none writing anything new. It is super frustrating.

There's only one answer: you must write, and publish. Write fast, furiously, desperately, so your new votes will outstrip the loss of the old ones. Squirrel yourself away in your room. Soon you won't be eating or drinking or sleeping, but by gum you won't lose all your votes.

Your loving colleagues, meanwhile, will begin to wonder why they haven't seen you around in a while.

"What happened to Lexx?"

"Something about electromagnetic fields."

"Poor blighter."

 

[SimonDoom]

On a (relatively) more serious note, I've lost another 26 net votes in 24 hours. Looking over the pattern of which stories have lost votes, I note that some stories with many views have lost none, and that losses are, again, concentrated among several stories, but that the stories losing votes are not exactly the same as the previous 24 hour period. It appears to me to be based either on publication date or, more likely, whenever the suspicious votes were occurring. So the data still doesn't back up something nefarious running -- just an ongoing process of sweeps going in stages through the story list over time.

 

[RejectReality]

29 visible swept votes and 24 visible new votes as RR. One was -8 and one was -9, but otherwise 1-2.

Les lost 3 off one story, one off another, and gained one vote on two stories.

Dark finally had a sweep of five votes off Ch. 2 of a story that's been out for years. No change in score.

Out of 140,000+

Again, much ado about nothing. Net 12 votes swept, and that's big compared to the previous few days net. Net score change has been up.

 

[lovecraft68]

I think "shilling for them" goes a little too far, in terms of how people describe what they do. I don't know anything about them other than the tiny bits of information we get from them, which is, well, tiny. But I'm inclined to cut them some slack because 1) the Site works for me, and I think it works for most, whatever its defects, 2) I don't know anything about what it's like to be them or do what they do, so I'm reluctant to judge them in the absence of full knowledge, and 3) I'm not paying anything so I don't feel like my standing to complain, or my case for complaint, is that strong. I don't care enough.

Just a little bit more effort at communication, I think, would help a lot. I agree with you about that.

But it is a two way street.

In one sense, yes they provide the platform for us to post stories and get a lot of attention and if its what you're looking for to get better at what you do and that's a great thing.

on the other hand...the site makes money from us. They get advertising, they get attention, they get traffic, they make money.

Every author/story here contributes to their income so the attitude some people have that the site owes us nothing, isn't exactly true.

Having said that, I do think there is something odd going on with votes. I'm seeing it in my new story, but as far as older ones I don't check numbers often so I wouldn't know if anything looks off or not.

I don't think its personal, its not any kind of 'attack' by any means. Odds are its some type of glitch that keeps plucking votes for some reason and will most likely straighten out.

Its not a big deal.

But as usual what irritates me is the constant refusal by some people to admit anything is wrong here. I really wonder if a couple of them are on payroll.

 

[TarnishedPenny]

I've been noticing a steady sweep process over the past couple of weeks. I also have recently asked for a sweep after a carpet-bombing incident.

This morning, 48 of my 60 stories have lost votes; one lost 40 votes all on its own. 398 votes were removed in total.

My average score edged up a little, which is OK. I'm content, frankly. I just wish the trolls could see how little difference their spleen makes.