Voice & Gesture Training

[shy slave]

Having read a post by LadyAria it has made me wonder about peoples views on voice and gesture training.

How far do people take it?

What about Professional PYLs, do they use it and to what extent?

Those who have been voice or gesture trained, if the relationship ends is it difficult to move into a new relationship or is it affected by previous voice or gesture training?

Is it difficult to train someone in this way, and are their alternatives for those people in on-line relationships?

Will post my own thoughts at a later time, I am simply curious to know other opinions.

Thanks

 

[chris9]

I never even heard about this...
Now I'm quite curious!

 

[Kajira Callista]

Having read a post by LadyAria it has made me wonder about peoples views on voice and gesture training.

How far do people take it?

What about Professional PYLs, do they use it and to what extent?

Those who have been voice or gesture trained, if the relationship ends is it difficult to move into a new relationship or is it affected by previous voice or gesture training?

Is it difficult to train someone in this way, and are their alternatives for those people in on-line relationships?

Will post my own thoughts at a later time, I am simply curious to know other opinions.

Thanks

well it isnt difficult to move to another relationship. it becomes difficult if the voice and or gestures are different. i forever thought i was the bestest submissive until i realized that i am programed for a certain type of Dominant and i find it very hard to readjust things in my head sometimes. An example would be my silence at odd times. one person trained me to be that way and i have a very hard time being vocal in some ways, with other people because of it. i think i have even managed to piss one or two off because no matter how hard i tried, i couldnt seem to do it. Being controlled in any way by anyone makes your next relationship difficult IMHO. anyway, i seem to be rambling again so i'll shhhhhhhh.

 

[DVS]

well it isnt difficult to move to another relationship. it becomes difficult if the voice and or gestures are different. i forever thought i was the bestest submissive until i realized that i am programed for a certain type of Dominant and i find it very hard to readjust things in my head sometimes. An example would be my silence at odd times. one person trained me to be that way and i have a very hard time being vocal in some ways, with other people because of it. i think i have even managed to piss one or two off because no matter how hard i tried, i couldnt seem to do it. Being controlled in any way by anyone makes your next relationship difficult IMHO. anyway, i seem to be rambling again so i'll shhhhhhhh.

I didn't know what this was, either, but after KC's post, I think I understand, now.

I think, depending on how long you've been with someone, you get trained just by association. I know I tend to train my subs to be the way I like, and I'm sure other Doms are the same way. I allow them to be just themselves, but if that doesn't thrill me, I have them change.

I don't think I do this a lot, because I really do enjoy the different ways a sub can react to things. I like variety, and so I think I train to a minimum. But, even that could be the opposite thing the next Dom would want of this particular sub. But, training is necessary and a sub should be naked and bound for this training. (I just added that part because I like my subs to be naked and bound).

KC, it seems you might piss a new Dom off, if he wants you to be vocal at any given time and you've been trained to be silent. If I were the new Dom, I'd give you a few whacks on the ass to bring you around. If that didn't do it, I'd give you a few more, but harder. I'd continue to smack harder and more sensitive areas, but just how far do you think I'd have to go to break your previous training?

 

[Kajira Callista]

KC, it seems you might piss a new Dom off, if he wants you to be vocal at any given time and you've been trained to be silent. If I were the new Dom, I'd give you a few whacks on the ass to bring you around. If that didn't do it, I'd give you a few more, but harder. I'd continue to smack harder and more sensitive areas, but just how far do you think I'd have to go to break your previous training?

Hehehehe that sounds like a wonnnnderful way to keep me silent

 

[LadyAria]

Having read a post by LadyAria it has made me wonder about peoples views on voice and gesture training.

How far do people take it?

What about Professional PYLs, do they use it and to what extent?

Those who have been voice or gesture trained, if the relationship ends is it difficult to move into a new relationship or is it affected by previous voice or gesture training?

Is it difficult to train someone in this way, and are their alternatives for those people in on-line relationships?

Will post my own thoughts at a later time, I am simply curious to know other opinions.

Thanks

The goal of slave voice training is to train the slave to speak in the pattern and inflection that the Dom finds desirable befitting to a slave. It learns how, when and where to speak. It is desirable for two basic reasons. The first is to make the slave easier to train and the second is to demonstrate that even speech is controlled by the Dom. Nothing is as arousing to a Dom then hearing the result of her hardwork in the voice of a well trained sub.

Voice training is an effective groundwork for higher level training. The Dom controls communication which makes training easier for both.

This does NOT mean that a sub can't express concerns or ask questions. Communication between the two is paramount. It just means the Dom has control of when and how the communication is done. Voice training gives the sub clear rules on how to communicate, improves the appeal of the speaking voice and gives the sub another way of expressing committement.

EXCEPT FOR THE GOLDEN RULE: when the safety word is voiced, all games cease immediately! Always respect this rule.

Forcing the sub to adhere to a submissive speech pattern, helps it focus on complete submission. The behavioral pattern change results in a psycological impact.

Generally, the sub will have to learn two (or more) different levels of speech patterns. Usually in the highest level, the slave remains silent until spoken. At a lower level, the sub usually has permission to speak, but still must use protocol i.e. "Mistress", "Lady", "Ma'am" "Goddess" or "Mother".

Usually,the sub’s voice is first restricted, then granted back on a limited bases and taught the details of the different levels of speech. Removing speech first forces the sub focus on the training or retraining of voice for communicating with the Dom.

Infractions generally should be punished immediately; however, punishment alone is not a good method of training. Reward is very effective and overlooked part of training. A Dom should always recognize accomplishment and milestones achieved by the sub.

If the relationship ends, it should not be difficult to move into a new relationship because the sub should go through retraining. It actually moves much more quickly for the previously trained. Personally, I do not like to take on the sub curious or new slaves. However, some Dom relish this.

No, it is not difficult to train someone in this way if they are commited. Yes, their are simple alternatives for on-line Dom/sub relationships. The sub most be more vocal vis a vis keyboard; however, the protocal of lower level can be applied.

 

[Milambus]

Very intresting. Can you go into more detail regarding how you perform this type of training?

Usually,the sub’s voice is first restricted, then granted back on a limited bases and taught the details of the different levels of speech. Removing speech first forces the sub focus on the training or retraining of voice for communicating with the Dom.

What limited bases would you grant back the sub's voice?

What are the details of the different levels of speech?

 

[LadyAria]

Very intresting. Can you go into more detail regarding how you perform this type of training?

What limited bases would you grant back the sub's voice?

What are the details of the different levels of speech?

Generally, the sub will have to learn two basic levels of speech patterns. This varies by Dom preference. I think three is now becoming most common in my circle. Usually in the highest level, the slave remains silent until spoken. At a lower level, the sub usually has permission to speak, but still must use protocol i.e. "Mistress", "Lady", "Ma'am" "Goddess" or "Mother". Honestly, I use three levels of speech with three different sub modes. Complete submission, service and companion mode. The cs mode having the highest protocol level and the companion mode having the lowest protocol level with the service mode being in the middle.

The training methods vary by sub. It is important to set S.M.A.R.T. goals. Specific, Measured, Attainable, Realstic and Time limited. (I stole this from corporate america.) Punish and Reward should vary by Dom/sub relationship.

I train complete submission first with silence. It is useful to use a gagging during the inital period. As reward of training progress, I will show sound pitches for the slave to repeat as he progresses and speech patterns that please me. The parroting will result in more reward. The failure to mimic with result in a repeat of exercise and punishment until perfection.

 

[Joe Schmoe]

Generally, the sub will have to learn two basic levels of speech patterns. This varies by Dom preference. I think three is now becoming most common in my circle. Usually in the highest level, the slave remains silent until spoken. At a lower level, the sub usually has permission to speak, but still must use protocol i.e. "Mistress", "Lady", "Ma'am" "Goddess" or "Mother". Honestly, I use three levels of speech with three different sub modes. Complete submission, service and companion mode. The cs mode having the highest protocol level and the companion mode having the lowest protocol level with the service mode being in the middle.

The training methods vary by sub. It is important to set S.M.A.R.T. goals. Specific, Measured, Attainable, Realstic and Time limited. (I stole this from corporate america.) Punish and Reward should vary by Dom/sub relationship.

I train complete submission first with silence. It is useful to use a gagging during the inital period. As reward of training progress, I will show sound pitches for the slave to repeat as he progresses and speech patterns that please me. The parroting will result in more reward. The failure to mimic with result in a repeat of exercise and punishment until perfection.

I would like to add a little to this quote by the fine Lady "Usually in the highest level, the slave remains silent until spoken". Most that I have seen that has taken it to this level also has instilled in the sub that they will not respond unless given permission by their Dom, regardless of who spoke to them. With some, the silence will not be broken unless that other person has asked the Dom to be allowed to address the sub and then the Dom passes permission to the sub.

I have seen and chuckled to myself at those who become dumbfounded and some become agitated at their silence, some commenting on the rudeness of the sub and the need for training only to find themselves with egg on their face once informed.

There are three levels in my neck of the woods as well. They are usually referred to around here as, casual, proper and HP (high protocol), similar to the levels Lady Aria described with CM, S and CS.

 

[Kajira Callista]

OK shy, where are ya cause i dont know if i understood the initial question correctly.

Voice and gesture training is something a little different to me then the last two posts. I thought shy was meaning voice and gesture of the dominant. Being trained to be silent was only part of things for me once upon a time. My Master very rarely spoke directly to me. I sort of learned to respond to tone of voice or expressions or a gesture such as a nod in my direction or if he wanted me in front of him he would look to where he expected me to be. Not so easy to explain.
But anyway...is this what you meant, shy?

 

[Killishandra]

This is a nicely informative thread... I knew such as thing existed because I have witnessed a bit of it in person at a fetish club, (and in my relationships I have been admonished many-a-time for using inappropriate speech and volume levels towards my Dom) but I didn't know alot of the details that Lady Aria has written about. Very interesting!

The whole concept of it is not a thought I relish, however... If it were expected of me I'd have no choice but to go through with it, but I really have a hard time keeping my mouth shut. I respect a Dom's right to be spoken to respectfully, but I resent just a little the idea of being told when and where I can express myself. Not to say I don't think it is fairly reasonable for a Dominant to want this. But I bet it is the thorn in many Doms' side - teaching their submissive to use only pleasing speech patterns. It also seems so very automated and I wonder if being forced into unnatural speech patterns affects the sub's mind negatively if they are around their Dom (and thus the rules are in effect) for most of their days and nights. Monotony cuts down on the creative process.

 

[graceanne]

This is a nicely informative thread... I knew such as thing existed because I have witnessed a bit of it in person at a fetish club, (and in my relationships I have been admonished many-a-time for using inappropriate speech and volume levels towards my Dom) but I didn't know alot of the details that Lady Aria has written about. Very interesting!

The whole concept of it is not a thought I relish, however... If it were expected of me I'd have no choice but to go through with it, but I really have a hard time keeping my mouth shut. I respect a Dom's right to be spoken to respectfully, but I resent just a little the idea of being told when and where I can express myself. Not to say I don't think it is fairly reasonable for a Dominant to want this. But I bet it is the thorn in many Doms' side - teaching their submissive to use only pleasing speech patterns. It also seems so very automated and I wonder if being forced into unnatural speech patterns affects the sub's mind negatively if they are around their Dom (and thus the rules are in effect) for most of their days and nights. Monotony cuts down on the creative process.

Yeah, me too. LOL I generally say what I think. Their are times when this gets me in trouble - and it's not normally with K. Telling someone at church that what they just said is bull - not a good idea.

 

[shy slave]

OK shy, where are ya cause i dont know if i understood the initial question correctly.

Voice and gesture training is something a little different to me then the last two posts. I thought shy was meaning voice and gesture of the dominant. Being trained to be silent was only part of things for me once upon a time. My Master very rarely spoke directly to me. I sort of learned to respond to tone of voice or expressions or a gesture such as a nod in my direction or if he wanted me in front of him he would look to where he expected me to be. Not so easy to explain.
But anyway...is this what you meant, shy?

In a word KC...Yes!

But as my posts are rarely short ...lol

It was more than the three levels expressed by LadyA and Joe but their explanations were informative and I now have a better understanding of that particular aspect of voice training.

I would like to know more about what your talking about KC from you and others who have trained pyls or been trained via a word or nod.

I would imagine it would take alot to re-train a pyl who responds to gestures given my a specific PYL. A little like their own version of ASL.

Etoile if your out there can you shed any light on whether its hard for people to learn gestures that are specific to a person?

 

[graceanne]

I don't know if this has anything to do with the conversation, but I'm very guesture oriented. I think it's cause of the amount of time I've spent with deaf or going deaf people. (My grandma's deaf - my parents will be.) I will, quite often, 'listen' to the guesture of the words.

Like, when we're driving. If k tells me to go left and guestures right, I will go right. If I'm in the way, my mom will pat my hip in the direction she wants me to go. Things like that.

Is that what you're talkinga bout?

 

[h_i_s]

I don't know if this has anything to do with the conversation, but I'm very guesture oriented. I think it's cause of the amount of time I've spent with deaf or going deaf people. (My grandma's deaf - my parents will be.) I will, quite often, 'listen' to the guesture of the words.

Like, when we're driving. If k tells me to go left and guestures right, I will go right. If I'm in the way, my mom will pat my hip in the direction she wants me to go. Things like that.

Is that what you're talkinga bout?

i 'think' that's what shyslave is talking about graceanne... yes. Or at least, that is how i interpreted her intention regarding the topic which she has raised.

i think we are talking about respect here... how it is shown via inflection and tone of voice from a pyl to PYL, & also how words can be chosen thoughtfully & carefully in expressing thoughts and opinions etc.

And perhaps how gestures can be used as a 'substitution' for words ...
Sometimes as a signal that i am 'dismissed' (talking short term here .. not as in 'pack your bags and get out of my life woman' type dismissal) ........ IYM pats me lightly on the butt or thigh a few times ... and when we first started out, He'd include the words, "Ok, you can go now" .. and over time ... those words were no longer needed for me to get that message.

By the way ... shyslave, this is a very interesting subject you started here.

 

[shy slave]

i 'think' that's what shyslave is talking about graceanne... yes. Or at least, that is how i interpreted her intention regarding the topic which she has raised.

i think we are talking about respect here... how it is shown via inflection and tone of voice from a pyl to PYL, & also how words can be chosen thoughtfully & carefully in expressing thoughts and opinions etc.

And perhaps how gestures can be used as a 'substitution' for words ...
Sometimes as a signal that i am 'dismissed' (talking short term here .. not as in 'pack your bags and get out of my life woman' type dismissal) ........ IYM pats me lightly on the butt or thigh a few times ... and when we first started out, He'd include the words, "Ok, you can go now" .. and over time ... those words were no longer needed for me to get that message.

By the way ... shyslave, this is a very interesting subject you started here.

Thanks Sinn

I think it is about respect but also control.

Its erotic to watch a PYL control a pyl simply by a small gesture or tone of voice.

When the pyl gets it right it could deepen their submission through anticipating and knowing a PYL wishes.
Of course, some PYL may take it further and use it to play mind games and put a pyl into a lose:lose situation, which is a whole topic in itself.

I have never been voice or gesture trained by a PYL, but my father 'trained' all three of us to respond to his tone, gestures etc; so we always knew how much trouble we were in simply by his putting the key in the lock of the door as he came home. Not a pleasant situation but it gave me some insight into how a PYL could use their power.
Please don't drag in the consent thing or safe words, we all know that pyl can stop it at anytime but sometimes they are beyond realising they should.

I liked the way aspects of training have been described earlier in the thread but the three levels sound like three seperate situations where voice training, or three types of training are used as oppose to three differing levels of training.
The word 'levels' to indicates that you work from 1 to 3 with there being a clear cut level of difficulty. That may be seen as semantics but if a pyl is taken through a series of levels something has to change on a mental level for example levels of sub-space.

Andante can take me to a level of sub-space with his voice alone, this level can be increased with a few gestures at the begining of his speaking to me.

However to me thats not voice trained, its simply responding to him and my desire to please him.
Another PYL would not have to 'undo' that training as its something that is driven by Andante when we are alone. In much the same way as most people have sex but each person has 'their' way. A new partner does not undo what a previous partner sexual practices were; they may not know about the specifics and therefore do not have to deal with them at any level (outside of things that manifest as limits or fears).

Grace ~ Its the gestures that really fascinate me. Many of my family are deaf and we all rely on gestures to some degree. Some gestures are similiar but have different meanings. If my mother touches my arm I know she is trying to warn me of something ie walking in dog mess. If my sister touches my arm she is querying the direction we are going or needs some physical support.
If a PYL has a gesture that means a particular behaviour is expected from a pyl, if that relationship ends and a new PYL has the same gesture but it means something very different how difficult is it for both of them to manage that situation?

KC gave a good example between being silent and speaking out, plus nods and gestures that were meaningful to that particular Dom.

LadyA~I was interested in your comments about voice pitch training, wondering if you have had any experience as a voice coach? Having spent time working with people who have communication difficulties I appreciate just how difficult that can be.

 

[Kajira Callista]

I would like to know more about what your talking about KC from you and others who have trained pyls or been trained via a word or nod.

I still find myself mentally "scanning" ppl constantly. i have learned that there are many dominants that find that annoying lol. I can often get into peoples heads and almost know what they are going to think before they think it. I pay attention to likes and dislikes and dont forget them...pay attention to things i know are extremely important to the other person and am always aware of them.
Being trained that way is sort of like always being "on". Learning to judge a mood or know when a person wants a beer or whatever is not as hard as you think. Doing it every time they decide its "silent time" is the hard part.
During scenes there was no music or sound of any kind because he wanted to hear me breathe or a groan or whatever escaped my lips. He knew when to let up a bit or go at it harder by how i would breathe. I could and still can silently orgasm (thats one that alot of dominants truly hate). I was trained and still can cum on command (if ya know the three words, and just how ta say em )
He never used any of this to play the lose-lose game, although i have talked to a few so called doms that have tried that with me.
He just loved teaching me to accept his control over me and he also loved showing off his ability to do so...not ever in a bad way but in a way that made me feel bursting with pride to be owned by him.
At times i have found it hard to handle a dominant being loud or using a loud voice...it triggers the "oh shit i did something really bad" feelings. I have been known to just cry from frustration because a dom expected me to scream in pain or pleasure and i just couldnt do it.
It is hard sometimes to open up to a different kind of dominant. I spent 7 yrs being trained just for him and there arent many out there like him... it is hard to not automatically fall into those ways even if it wasnt asked for. I suppose though, that it is hard in any type of new relationship to not want it to be that comfortable place you have known already.

 

[graceanne]

I still find myself mentally "scanning" ppl constantly. i have learned that there are many dominants that find that annoying lol. I can often get into peoples heads and almost know what they are going to think before they think it. I pay attention to likes and dislikes and dont forget them...pay attention to things i know are extremely important to the other person and am always aware of them.
Being trained that way is sort of like always being "on". Learning to judge a mood or know when a person wants a beer or whatever is not as hard as you think. Doing it every time they decide its "silent time" is the hard part.
During scenes there was no music or sound of any kind because he wanted to hear me breathe or a groan or whatever escaped my lips. He knew when to let up a bit or go at it harder by how i would breathe. I could and still can silently orgasm (thats one that alot of dominants truly hate). I was trained and still can cum on command (if ya know the three words, and just how ta say em )
He never used any of this to play the lose-lose game, although i have talked to a few so called doms that have tried that with me.
He just loved teaching me to accept his control over me and he also loved showing off his ability to do so...not ever in a bad way but in a way that made me feel bursting with pride to be owned by him.
At times i have found it hard to handle a dominant being loud or using a loud voice...it triggers the "oh shit i did something really bad" feelings. I have been known to just cry from frustration because a dom expected me to scream in pain or pleasure and i just couldnt do it.
It is hard sometimes to open up to a different kind of dominant. I spent 7 yrs being trained just for him and there arent many out there like him... it is hard to not automatically fall into those ways even if it wasnt asked for. I suppose though, that it is hard in any type of new relationship to not want it to be that comfortable place you have known already.

I know what you mean. K used to do things like say "Would you . . . " and I'd say "ok." Then he'd get all irritated and say "I didn't finish my sentance, what do I want you to do?" Then I'd tell him and be right. Drove him crazy. He's used to it now. He actually forgets sometimes that I can't read his mind.

 

[shy slave]

I still find myself mentally "scanning" ppl constantly. i have learned that there are many dominants that find that annoying lol. I can often get into peoples heads and almost know what they are going to think before they think it. I pay attention to likes and dislikes and dont forget them...pay attention to things i know are extremely important to the other person and am always aware of them.
Being trained that way is sort of like always being "on". Learning to judge a mood or know when a person wants a beer or whatever is not as hard as you think. Doing it every time they decide its "silent time" is the hard part.
During scenes there was no music or sound of any kind because he wanted to hear me breathe or a groan or whatever escaped my lips. He knew when to let up a bit or go at it harder by how i would breathe. I could and still can silently orgasm (thats one that alot of dominants truly hate). I was trained and still can cum on command (if ya know the three words, and just how ta say em )
He never used any of this to play the lose-lose game, although i have talked to a few so called doms that have tried that with me.
He just loved teaching me to accept his control over me and he also loved showing off his ability to do so...not ever in a bad way but in a way that made me feel bursting with pride to be owned by him.
At times i have found it hard to handle a dominant being loud or using a loud voice...it triggers the "oh shit i did something really bad" feelings. I have been known to just cry from frustration because a dom expected me to scream in pain or pleasure and i just couldnt do it.
It is hard sometimes to open up to a different kind of dominant. I spent 7 yrs being trained just for him and there arent many out there like him... it is hard to not automatically fall into those ways even if it wasnt asked for. I suppose though, that it is hard in any type of new relationship to not want it to be that comfortable place you have known already.

Thanks KC

I struggle with silence at times so I can't imagine how difficult it was for you to learn that.

Silent orgasms would be a useful skill at times.

I agree it can be hard to open up to a new person and take that level of emotional risk.

To me any new relationship is hard for a submissive.
Pleasing the PYL is uppermost in our minds and it means we can sometimes fall into old behaviours that worked with other people.
I don't think it means we think any less of the new person when that happens.
Sometimes its the reverse and our eagerness to please that makes the situation develop.

 

[INSIDEYOURMIND]

I really like this thread, I have enjoyed the sincere and intelligent replies.

There are times when my little girl struggles with her submissiveness, not in a bratty or intentional manner, but just based on the dynamics of her previous relationships.

I forget sometimes that while it is her goal to please me, and do as I say, she has not had a M/s relationship before. I expect certain behaviours from her, and at times I assume she completely understands. If I didn't completely communicate my desires, then the fault lies in me, and is not a question of her submissiveness.

The ability to communicate with each other, regardless of how it is spoken, gestured, or expressed in any other way, is the foundation of our relationship.

 

[LadyAria]

Kajira Callista - I recognize now I responded only to the voice training part. I did not completely answer the question as I was lengthy enough in my reply.

Killishandra - I can see your point about voice training. However, my sub enjoys the comfort of absolute control. The change in speech helps them release their day and assume their role.

Graceanne - Most language is unspoken gesture and understood at any age. I do use gesture training.

I have some musicially training someone asked. I find it useful.

I'm subscribe to the house of European Council. I use the standard gestures. I guess I failed to mention that before. The standard and universal gestures travel well and have some commonalities to the Oriental society. They are easy to grasp and remember. Retraining is generally not an issue with prior slaves as they translate quickly.

Let see, what else did I read...I did not say there was three levels of speech. I use three, the base is two and it ranges by Dom preferences. I know a few Doms who go crazy with a complex library. Not my taste.

When I speak of voice training, I was talking about the sub. Dom commands and inflection should be a part of formal training, but my original post she quoted was speaking to sub voice training.

I want to say I am very impressed with everyone's openess in this thread. You make a Lady feel comfortable in her in the House

 

[DVS]

This is all kind of out there, for me. There are times when I just tie her up, strip her naked and then have my way with her for a couple of hours. If she isn't screaming for some reason at the beginning, I know she'll be screaming for some reason, towards the end.

Shit, she might be screaming "Stop! Stop!. ENOUGH, already!" I so enjoy those women with a mind.

 

[LadyAria]

This is all kind of out there, for me. There are times when I just tie her up, strip her naked and then have my way with her for a couple of hours. If she isn't screaming for some reason at the beginning, I know she'll be screaming for some reason, towards the end.

Shit, she might be screaming "Stop! Stop!. ENOUGH, already!" I so enjoy those women with a mind.

That's just straight bondage, Darling. No formal training in that...as much fun as the two of you may have

 

[DVS]

That's just straight bondage, Darling. No formal training in that...as much fun as the two of you may have

What do you mean ?no formal training?" You've obviously, never seen me tie somebody up.

 

[graceanne]

Shit, she might be screaming "Stop! Stop!. ENOUGH, already!" I so enjoy those women with a mind.

Braggart.