View on abortion

[SEVERUSMAX]

I will have to make an exception to my usual Libertarian views and say that I am opposed to legal abortion after the 2nd trimester, when it is clearly a sentient lifeform we are talking about (I count sentience as beginning with brainwaves- at 12 weeks). Only an urgent issue of the survival of child vs. mother would allow an exception IMO. Otherwise, if you want an abortion, get it early.

That's just my take on the issue. Murder is NOT a personal choice.

 

[Rope64]

I think for me that life and death are purely primal issues.

Do you support socialized healthcare? Do you think that people should be legally responsible for doing anything in their power to save another's life; e.g., compulsory blood donation, requiring that assistance be provided to those in distress?

 

[matriarch]

With all due respect to Blacksnake and WH, neither of you are women. Neither of you, however much you love and respect women, your wives in particular, have not the slightest idea of how it feels to be pregnant - physically, emotionally, psychologically.

It's a hugely traumatic time for most women, even when the pregnancy is planned and desired. I personally was very ill both times, and totally terrified of the end result, and these were planned pregnancies, resulting in much loved sons.

What it must feel like to be pregnant, if you are a very young girl, if it was an accident, or even worse if it is the result of rape, I cannot even begin to imagine.

No-one, I repeat NO-ONE but the mother should have the right to decide on the outcome of this situation. Not even the father.

I've had my say, I refuse to be drawn into this further, but could not let this thread pass without having my say.

 

[zeb1094]

There should be no conditions placed on a woman, if she wants an abortion she should be able to get one by a licensed medical professional. If there are restrictions in place the women who truely want one will get one. Whether it is in the back rooms of some hack or in another country they will get it done.

It's her body she should have the choice.

 

[SEVERUSMAX]

I take the tack that the body in question belongs to the baby, not the mother, and no one is bothering to consult the child, are they? A 12 week old fetus is a human being, with a "soul", if you wish to call it that, and a right to live and grow up. It should not be punished for any crimes of his or her father (rape, for instance). NO ONE else owns the body of the fetus, with the accompanying right to terminate it. If I decide that I want to terminate my next-door neighbor's life for my own convenience, he would have every right to object and have me arrested. It's the same thing. That baby is as much a person with rights as my next-door neighbor.

 

[Selena_Kitt]

It's a hugely traumatic time for most women, even when the pregnancy is planned and desired. I personally was very ill both times, and totally terrified of the end result, and these were planned pregnancies, resulting in much loved sons.

Traumatic, really?

I'm not saying it's all sunshine and roses... I'm surprised by the word choice... hm...

 

[zeb1094]

I take the tack that the body in question belongs to the baby, not the mother, and no one is bothering to consult the child, are they? A 12 week old fetus is a human being, with a "soul", if you wish to call it that, and a right to live and grow up. It should not be punished for any crimes of his or her father (rape, for instance).

So, you(SEVERUSMAX) are willing to take the child and raise it has your own, if the mother and/or father don't want it?

 

[silverwhisper]

severusmax: you're right: that's distinctly non-libertarian. :>

IMX, most people's stances on abortion are generally most easily identified by how they answer the question of "when does life begin"? i know of almost no pro-choicers who would agree it begins at conception or the first trimester.

ed

 

[SEVERUSMAX]

So, you(SEVERUSMAX) are willing to take the child and raise it has your own, if the mother and/or father don't want it?

I might find someone to raise it, but that's not the issue. Convenience or poverty do not justify murder.

I'm generally a centrist-Libertarian, but on THIS issue, I move to the right. Many people might find it confusing, but I am more confused by those who preach "morality" and then declare themselves "pro-choice". What matters more: some false standard of societal values, or the natural, inalienable right to life?

 

[Selena_Kitt]

i know of almost no pro-choicers who would agree it begins at conception or the first trimester.

You just found one.

 

[SEVERUSMAX]

severusmax: you're right: that's distinctly non-libertarian. :>

IMX, most people's stances on abortion are generally most easily identified by how they answer the question of "when does life begin"? i know of almost no pro-choicers who would agree it begins at conception or the first trimester.

ed

And I believe it begins at 12 weeks. Saying that I should take in someone to prevent their murder could be as easily applied to the insane or retarded as kids. Are you going to threaten to legalize killing them now, unless those who favor keeping them alive are willing to take them in? Is that the next step?

 

[Norajane]

severusmax: you're right: that's distinctly non-libertarian. :>

IMX, most people's stances on abortion are generally most easily identified by how they answer the question of "when does life begin"? i know of almost no pro-choicers who would agree it begins at conception or the first trimester.

ed

I don't care when 'life' begins. As long as the 'life' is in MY body, it's my choice. And I don't really care if anyone wants to call it murder or whatever. MY body, MY choice.


And Snake -
Irreversible harm can be something like a young girl giving up her prospects for higher education and a good job for the rest of her life because she has to take care of a child that she can't afford, especially if the father is out of the picture for whatever reason.

 

[silverwhisper]

selena: that's unusual. if you don't mind my asking, what is your thinking re: your opinion? as i said, that's IMX a very rare pair of positions to hold.

severusmax: so a question for you. why not at conception?

norajane: that's a position a good friend of mine espouses, citing that it's ultimately a property rights issue to him.

ed

 

[SEVERUSMAX]

I don't care when 'life' begins. As long as the 'life' is in MY body, it's my choice. And I don't really care if anyone wants to call it murder or whatever. MY body, MY choice.


And Snake -
Irreversible harm can be something like a young girl giving up her prospects for higher education and a good job for the rest of her life because she has to take care of a child that she can't afford, especially if the father is out of the picture for whatever reason.

So a teen girl's right to be educated is MORE important than her child's right to live?

SW, I believe that "sentient" or "conscious" life cannot exist without brainwaves, hence there cannot be a soul without them. Once brainwaves are there, they are a "person" with fundamental rights. Kill them and you are a murderer, plain and simple.

 

[zeb1094]

I might find someone to raise it, but that's not the issue. Convenience or poverty do not justify murder.

I'm generally a centrist-Libertarian, but on THIS issue, I move to the right. Many people might find it confusing, but I am more confused by those who preach "morality" and then declare themselves "pro-choice". What matters more: some false standard of societal values, or the natural, inalienable right to life?

I never said anything about poverty or convenience, I said it's really none of your business nor mine. By interferring with the mother to preserve the embryo you are violating the mothers rights as an individual. What she does with her body is hers and her doctors business. It's not mine, it's not yours, it's hers and only hers.

 

[Norajane]

I might find someone to raise it, but that's not the issue.

But that is precisely the issue. How can you justify so much concern about making sure life is born when you don't have an an equal concern about the child's life after it is born?

Who is this other person you're going to find to raise it???? And are you really prepared to help find that person?

 

[Norajane]

So a teen girl's right to be educated is MORE important than her child's right to live?

A teen girl's right to decided what is best for her - a living, sentient being with brainwaves and everything - is more important, YES.

 

[CrimsonMaiden]

But that is precisely the issue. How can you justify so much concern about making sure life is born when you don't have an an equal concern about the child's life after it is born?

Who is this other person you're going to find to raise it???? And are you really prepared to help find that person?

Considering how many adoptions agencies there are and how many couples who want children and have to go to foreign countries to get babies, I wouldn't think this would be an issue.

I'm mostly firmly on the anti-abortion side. There are circumstances where I can see an abortion as okay (in my opinion.) I'm not going to argue my side. There's no point because I won't change anyone's mind, and I'll just get myself in an uproar... and it's not worth it.

 

[Selena_Kitt]

selena: that's unusual. if you don't mind my asking, what is your thinking re: your opinion? as i said, that's IMX a very rare pair of positions to hold.

I guess I would say I value conscious death over unconscious life. I believe life begins far before conception, actually... although it's an irrelevant consideration for me in terms of abortion, or euthanasia, or any situation where someone is chosing between life or death. I don't base my decision whether something is morally right or wrong with the bias that life is better than death.

 

[Norajane]

norajane: that's a position a good friend of mine espouses, citing that it's ultimately a property rights issue to him.

ed

It's more than just property rights for me, though. It's not just about body, but about mind as well. You need both to have a baby.

It's about respecting that a woman can make her own decisions on whether to bring a child into her life, and that no one else should make that decision for her regardless of their views on it.

 

[SEVERUSMAX]

I never said anything about poverty or convenience, I said it's really none of your business nor mine. By interferring with the mother to preserve the embryo you are violating the mothers rights as an individual. What she does with her body is hers and her doctors business. It's not mine, it's not yours, it's hers and only hers.

That's the problem. Just because it is IN her body, doesn't mean that it BELONGS to her, to do with as she pleases. A 12 week old fetus is a sovereign person with the basic right to live. To kill such an innocent, in which case you are not protecting anything but your own convenience or wealth, is akin to killing your parents because you don't want to pay for their nursing home anymore.

To NJ. Look, you and I are never going to agree on this. I believe that one's right to live is not dependent on their age or location (womb in this case), provided that they have not committed murder or deliberately endangered your other rights. I don't have to provide specifics to justify this view, any more than an abolitionist would have to say what he would do for a runaway slave, to justify his hostilty to chattel slavery in the ante-bellum South. My position is based on a basic view of humanity, in which people are sovereigns, with full rights- as long as they don't on trample on those of others. In this case, the paramount right is that of the child to live. Plenty of bastards and impoverished people have lived to become great. I shudder to think of what have happened to them, if their parents had killed them.

I regard suicide as a fundamental human right for the same reason that I believe abortion to NOT be one: the sovereignty of the individual. To me, the child is the one who owns his or her own body, and that right cannot be usurped by ANYONE, including the mother.

 

[Rope64]

So a teen girl's right to be educated is MORE important than her child's right to live?

Uh, you seem to be about as libertarian as a man who likes to have sex with other men is straight.

Is your right to low taxes more important than an uninsured and critically ill person's right to live?

 

[Norajane]

Considering how many adoptions agencies there are and how many couples who want children and have to go to foreign countries to get babies, I wouldn't think this would be an issue.

I'm mostly firmly on the anti-abortion side. There are circumstances where I can see an abortion as okay (in my opinion.) I'm not going to argue my side. There's no point because I won't change anyone's mind, and I'll just get myself in an uproar... and it's not worth it.

Crim, I don't disagree that putting a baby up for adoption is a good choice for some, but I don't think it should be the only available option that women have.

 

[SEVERUSMAX]

Uh, you seem to be about as libertarian as a man who likes to have sex with other men is straight.

Is your right to low taxes more important than an uninsured and critically ill person's right to live?

I favor lower taxes, as long as they are paid for by less spending. I'm VERY libertarian on gay rights, gun control, civil liberties, drugs (want to legalize them), porn, First Amendment issues in general, prostitution, etc. I just take a "right-wing" view that I don't have the right to decide if OTHERS live or die. Murder is not a civil liberty.

 

[Norajane]

To NJ. Look, you and I are never going to agree on this. I believe that one's right to live is not dependent on their age or location (womb in this case), provided that they have not committed murder or deliberately endangered your other rights. I don't have to provide specifics to justify this view, any more than an abolitionist would have to say what he would do for a runaway slave, to justify his hostilty to chattel slavery in the ante-bellum South. My position is based on a basic view of humanity, in which people are sovereigns, with full rights- as long as they don't on trample on those of others. In this case, the paramount right is that of the child to live. Plenty of bastards and impoverished people have lived to become great. I shudder to think of what have happened to them, if their parents had killed them.

I regard suicide as a fundamental human right for the same reason that I believe abortion to NOT be one: the sovereignty of the individual. To me, the child is the one who owns his or her own body, and that right cannot be usurped by ANYONE, including the mother.

Your view completely ignores the mother.