VE seeking advice

[sexylaila438]

hello all!

thanks in advance for your thoughtful replies

i have a new author, very new (this is his/her first submission), and i don't know exactly how i should let him/her know that i cannot perform a miracle and make the story readable, without being bitchy. any advice on how to deal with this?

besides many, many, many spelling mistakes and endless punctuation errors, the story is very disorganized and difficult to follow. the characters are not well defined/developed. further, there isn't much of a plot.

it isn't that i lack the skill to make the story decent, it is just that i would practically have to rewrite it, thus it is no longer his/her story but mine.

 

[AsylumSeeker]

Send to me

I'm an adult educator, a decent editor/mentor, and I actually have some free time.

As much I enjoy the free time I currently have to write, I'll help out.

 

[AsylumSeeker]

I responded rather quickly, before adding...

Thanks, from the bottom of my heart, for taking on the task. And also for realizing when you're head is below water. While we appreciate the workoad loyal editors have taken off our shoulders, we're more than willing to assist.

 

[LadyCibelle]

hello all!

thanks in advance for your thoughtful replies

i have a new author, very new (this is his/her first submission), and i don't know exactly how i should let him/her know that i cannot perform a miracle and make the story readable, without being bitchy. any advice on how to deal with this?

besides many, many, many spelling mistakes and endless punctuation errors, the story is very disorganized and difficult to follow. the characters are not well defined/developed. further, there isn't much of a plot.

it isn't that i lack the skill to make the story decent, it is just that i would practically have to rewrite it, thus it is no longer his/her story but mine.

AS answered you....but....allow me to give you my 0.02. If the story needs a complete overhaul why not be simply honest and tell that person? I mean, you don't need to be mean and/or bitchy to do so, but you also have to stay true to yourself and be honest. Granted some 'writers' won't appreciate it and might tell you to fuck off, but if your writer is that type of person wouldn't you like to know it before you engage into a long and serious relationship with him/her?

If your writer is the type who's serious about his/her writing, you might even be surprised by having him/her thank you for your honesty.

Whatever you decide, the choice is yours....just remember to always stay true to yourself.

LadyC.

 

[Darkniciad]

First off, take care of the nuts and bolts. Correct the grammar, formatting, and spelling. Take note of common mistakes in the story and point those out in detail.

From there, just soften the blow of the plot and characters. Rather than saying the plot is thin, say the plot feels thin. Don't say that John is one-dimensional and boring, suggest a few quirks that could flesh him out a little as examples. Same thing for the plot. Suggest somewhere the characters could be coming from and where they might be going. Let them know that you're giving them ideas to strengthen the story, not to fix it. The author likes what they've written, or they wouldn't be planning to submit it. Put more than one suggestion in there, so it doesn't feel like you're trying to write the story for them. Give them some sparks, and let the author fan those into a flame of their own.

It might help to communicate via email before you actually send the grammar corrected version back. Talk about those storytelling elements outside of their work. That way, the connection between your criticism to the actual document isn't quite as strong. I've done this a lot of times with brand new authors.

If the author is happy with just posting a corrected scene without expanding on the plot, then work from within that. Are there any elements there that could strengthen that? Could there be more detail to the sex? Less? Are there common things that turn away readers like bra sizes and impossible body types?

If they're making any mistakes that you used to make all the time, it can't hurt to point that out while pointing out the mistake. You might even mention how you came to discover it was a mistake.

The author may have a thick enough skin to handle straight criticism, but you can't know that until you feel them out a little.

Just a few thoughts off the top of my head.

 

[cloudy]

AS answered you....but....allow me to give you my 0.02. If the story needs a complete overhaul why not be simply honest and tell that person? I mean, you don't need to be mean and/or bitchy to do so, but you also have to stay true to yourself and be honest. Granted some 'writers' won't appreciate it and might tell you to fuck off, but if your writer is that type of person wouldn't you like to know it before you engage into a long and serious relationship with him/her?

If your writer is the type who's serious about his/her writing, you might even be surprised by having him/her thank you for your honesty.

Whatever you decide, the choice is yours....just remember to always stay true to yourself.

LadyC.

Yes.

One thing I might suggest is to take just a portion of the story, a few paragraphs, and rewrite them completely. Send those back with an explanation of what you changed, and why - comparing what they wrote with the rewrite. Make sure they know they don't have to write exactly as you do, but that its an example.

Its worked before for me.

 

[Jenny_Jackson]

Don't worry. No one, with the exception of Cyrle Cornbluth, ever got a story right the first time out. It's write and rewrite, edit and rewrite, re-edit and rewrite.

Eventually, it comes together. Good luck

 

[Tzah]

If it's mine, just tell me. *shrug* I've been called indecipherable before- and worse! Lol.

 

[sexylaila438]

many thanks to all!!!

i'm still in the process of going over the spelling and grammar issues. i will try to accomplish all i can and respond to the author.

 

[AsylumSeeker]

All too familiar..

You're new here, have declared yourself an editor... (just guessing)

You've either nailed it, or are in left field. No matter. You're not a single editor, but one in an army. Join here (no combat pay)

If ever in doubt, ask. Please feel free to abuse me with questions regarding ideas, and LadyC and CC about content.

 

[sr71plt]

Am I the only one who drew in breath at this thread--in terms of what editors do? Is the author being talked about posting on some other Web site than Lit? Or is this talking about an author's work in plain view of the author in question? I'm not surprised Tzah posted an "is it me?" question. Isn't editorial help here couched in confidentiality? Seems VEs should have a mechanism for consulting each other on specific works in private. This said, it looks like Darkniciad provided good consultation. "Lady" C. had good points too (some of what went before didn't seem to respond to the question)--but the sort of "we're talking in private" here posing of the quesiton and responding to it seemed more than a little surreal--especially since the original quesiton wasn't moved to a private place.

 

[sexylaila438]

i understand your concern. i questioned myself about posting for fear that one of my authors would read it and be insecure. however, i wanted to do the best thing for this person and therefore felt i should seek advice. i don't want to ignore the author or be rude to him/her so i wanted to see what other's thought about my situation and how they would react.

i don't really want to get too much into the situation or my motivation/intention, but it was not intended to be malicious. VE are volunteers and sometimes i think that people might forget that. further, i do it because i enjoy it. sometimes the state of the work makes it difficult to enjoy and i want to respond in the most helpful way without upsetting the person.

i was actually going to delete the post this evening; but i've rec'd a couple of responses and hadn't had a chance.

if there was a more 'private place' i would have of course utilized it. i did try to be very vague in my post so as not to indicate who i was speaking of.

i do hope that i didn't offend anyone!

 

[CopyCarver]

i understand your concern. i questioned myself about posting for fear that one of my authors would read it and be insecure. however, i wanted to do the best thing for this person and therefore felt i should seek advice. i don't want to ignore the author or be rude to him/her so i wanted to see what other's thought about my situation and how they would react.

i don't really want to get too much into the situation or my motivation/intention, but it was not intended to be malicious. VE are volunteers and sometimes i think that people might forget that. further, i do it because i enjoy it. sometimes the state of the work makes it difficult to enjoy and i want to respond in the most helpful way without upsetting the person.

i was actually going to delete the post this evening; but i've rec'd a couple of responses and hadn't had a chance.

if there was a more 'private place' i would have of course utilized it. i did try to be very vague in my post so as not to indicate who i was speaking of.

i do hope that i didn't offend anyone!

Asylum Seeker is right on the nose. Just do your best and don't hesitate to ask for help if you're uncertain about something. You'll do fine.

 

[sr71plt]

i don't really want to get too much into the situation or my motivation/intention, but it was not intended to be malicious.

No, I didn't get the impression that you were anything but concerned about the right way to proceed.

 

[LadyCibelle]

Am I the only one who drew in breath at this thread--in terms of what editors do? Is the author being talked about posting on some other Web site than Lit? Or is this talking about an author's work in plain view of the author in question? I'm not surprised Tzah posted an "is it me?" question. Isn't editorial help here couched in confidentiality? Seems VEs should have a mechanism for consulting each other on specific works in private. This said, it looks like Darkniciad provided good consultation. "Lady" C. had good points too (some of what went before didn't seem to respond to the question)--but the sort of "we're talking in private" here posing of the quesiton and responding to it seemed more than a little surreal--especially since the original quesiton wasn't moved to a private place.

If you allow me to answer your points that I've "bolded' above without it degenerating in a pissing contest between you and me, I'd like that.

Please, understand the answers in the order of the bold points above.

Yep, editing is done in confidentiality and unless I missed a bit about sexylaila438's initial request, I didn't see any mention of the author's name or any other identifiable quality of the story.

I really would like if VE had some kind of 'private' way of communicating together about somethings, but save from PMing each other there isn't and sometimes PMing can become overly time-consuming.

Allow me to repeat, there isn't any way to move such sensitive topics to a 'private' place. It's all we can do to communicate without naming names and making sure not to give too much details about our query.

Believe it or not (that's for everyone and not just you sr) I'd have been the first one to tell sexylaila438 to delete or amend her post if there had been any way to identify the writer and/or story.

I can be bitchy, I can be bossy, I can be mean and nasty when need be, but there is one thing there are a few things I don't accept and embarrassing a budding writer on the public place is one of them.

Please, feel free to suggest an alternative if you know one.

 

[sr71plt]

If you allow me to answer your points that I've "bolded' above without it degenerating in a pissing contest between you and me, I'd like that.

Please, understand the answers in the order of the bold points above.

Yep, editing is done in confidentiality and unless I missed a bit about sexylaila438's initial request, I didn't see any mention of the author's name or any other identifiable quality of the story.

I really would like if VE had some kind of 'private' way of communicating together about somethings, but save from PMing each other there isn't and sometimes PMing can become overly time-consuming.

Allow me to repeat, there isn't any way to move such sensitive topics to a 'private' place. It's all we can do to communicate without naming names and making sure not to give too much details about our query.

Believe it or not (that's for everyone and not just you sr) I'd have been the first one to tell sexylaila438 to delete or amend her post if there had been any way to identify the writer and/or story.

I can be bitchy, I can be bossy, I can be mean and nasty when need be, but there is one thing there are a few things I don't accept and embarrassing a budding writer on the public place is one of them.

Please, feel free to suggest an alternative if you know one.

I don't think any part of a point is that the general reading set would know who sexylaila438 was talking about (unless they identified themselves)--but any of the Lit. writers currently using sexylaila438's help certainly know they are ones in this status (unless sexylaila438 is using an alt here not used with people she's helping--which is possible and would change the whole complexion). The fact that one of the writers she's helping posted an "is it me?" question pretty much obviates the question of whether writers sexylaila438's is currently working with might see themselves as the subject of the question and be disturbed by this being discussed on the open forum rather than with them directly.

Since you ask what an alt would be, I think it would be that you--or even one of the more experienced VEs here--would have asked that the original posting be taken down or take it down and directed the questions--which were quite reasonable questions--to other VEs by PM. I would have said something myself at the time the original posting was posted, if even in a PM to sexylaila438--when it became obvious on of the VEs here or you weren't going to do it. But both you and I know what you would have had to say about that.

I agree totally about not embarrassing a budding writer through the process of this part of the Web site. But the moment Tizah posted, I would have expected it to light a lightbulb over some heads that whoever sexylaila438 was giving help to on this Web site would see the possibility that it was them being talked about behind their back--but in full view of all of Lit. This isn't technically embarrassment, but it ain't good.

And it ain't good that you don't recognize that, I don't think.

 

[sr71plt]

I can be bitchy, I can be bossy, I can be mean and nasty when need be, but there is one thing there are a few things I don't accept and embarrassing a budding writer on the public place is one of them.

P.S., I in no way accept that the nonproportioned nastiness that you have shown me on this forum is in any way "needed." Some of it has even violated the rules of the forum. And I don't agree that there's any reason for a poster--and especially a site moderator--to be bitchy, bossy, mean, nasty, and foul mouthed on the forum at all. It's a sign of weakness and lack of control.

That said, I'm happy to have seen a mostly civil posting for a change and look forward to the same level of civility in the future. Whatever the level you take, I'll strive to be three levels more civil.

 

[LadyCibelle]

I don't think any part of a point is that the general reading set would know who sexylaila438 was talking about (unless they identified themselves)--but any of the Lit. writers currently using sexylaila438's help certainly know they are ones in this status (unless sexylaila438 is using an alt here not used with people she's helping--which is possible and would change the whole complexion). The fact that one of the writers she's helping posted an "is it me?" question pretty much obviates the question of whether writers sexylaila438's is currently working with might see themselves as the subject of the question and be disturbed by this being discussed on the open forum rather than with them directly.

And what did you want her to do? Go to the writer and tell her what went through her mind any way it came out? That's why she came here and asked....because she wanted to know how to do it. She should be congratulated that she waited and took a breath before reacting....not made feel ashamed for asking.

Since you ask what an alt would be, I think it would be that you--or even one of the more experienced VEs here--would have asked that the original posting be taken down or take it down and directed the questions--which were quite reasonable questions--to other VEs by PM. I would have said something myself at the time the original posting was posted, if even in a PM to sexylaila438--when it became obvious on of the VEs here or you weren't going to do it. But both you and I know what you would have had to say about that.

I agree totally about not embarrassing a budding writer through the process of this part of the Web site. But the moment Tizah posted, I would have expected it to light a lightbulb over some heads that whoever sexylaila438 was giving help to on this Web site would see the possibility that it was them being talked about behind their back--but in full view of all of Lit. This isn't technically embarrassment, but it ain't good.

And it ain't good that you don't recognize that, I don't think.

You know what? I was about to go into a long tirade...once again. You have a way of pushing my buttons the wrong way.....I don't even know, and won't presume, that you do it on purpose but anyway.

Let me just say that you really really puzzle me sometimes. You complain when we're not seriously talking about editing's finer points, you complain when we're "fluff" and when an editor comes with a question as to what do to....you complain again because apparently we're not answering the matter the 'right' way.

Frankly, I don't know what else can be done. If the writer (whomever, whichever) can't see that what she done she did in good faith and because she wanted to help.....well....there's a problem right there.


Furthermore, you mention asking those kind of questions in a PM....but I don't know for you, but I don't know that many people who would be responsive to a lengthy PM discussion with someone they don't know from Adam (no offense meant to you here, sexylaila438).

 

[Tzah]

Good luck with that. The ability to be civil varies in the individual from situation to situation sometimes.

 

[sexylaila438]

just to clarify, i do not believe that i have read any of Tzah's work, unless it is an alt.

i have no problem with this thread being removed if it would resolve other member's concerns!

i was well aware of the fact that any of my author's could read this post, but i decided that it was more beneficial for this particular author, to possibly sacrifice my reputation to give them the most appropriate assistance.

i do appreciate ALL replies and the resulting conversation.

 

[LadyCibelle]

P.S., I in no way accept that the nonproportioned nastiness that you have shown me on this forum is in any way "needed." Some of it has even violated the rules of the forum. And I don't agree that there's any reason for a poster--and especially a site moderator--to be bitchy, bossy, mean, nasty, and foul mouthed on the forum at all. It's a sign of weakness and lack of control.

That said, I'm happy to have seen a mostly civil posting for a change and look forward to the same level of civility in the future. Whatever the level you take, I'll strive to be three levels more civil.

You know what? Forget it. You ALWAYS have to be right, you're NEVER wrong according to you and you don't see your faults. It's ALWAYS other people's fault that they're mean to you, you don't deserve it.....of course not!

Look at your level on intolerance, look at your smugness, look at your arrogance........and you wonder why people are mean to you?

 

[LadyCibelle]

double post.

 

[LadyCibelle]

just to clarify, i do not believe that i have read any of Tzah's work, unless it is an alt.

i have no problem with this thread being removed if it would resolve other member's concerns!

i was well aware of the fact that any of my author's could read this post, but i decided that it was more beneficial for this particular author, to possibly sacrifice my reputation to give them the most appropriate assistance.

i do appreciate ALL replies and the resulting conversation.

Laila. ....don't you DARE feel bad because you came and asked what you should do. You did the RIGHT thing, don't even doubt that for a minute.

Don't hesitate to come back and ask questions....if your questions are out of line, wrong or should be put somewhere else, I'll tell you, don't worry.

 

[sr71plt]

And what did you want her to do? Go to the writer and tell her what went through her mind any way it came out? That's why she came here and asked....because she wanted to know how to do it. She should be congratulated that she waited and took a breath before reacting....not made feel ashamed for asking.




You know what? I was about to go into a long tirade...once again. You have a way of pushing my buttons the wrong way.....I don't even know, and won't presume, that you do it on purpose but anyway.

Let me just say that you really really puzzle me sometimes. You complain when we're not seriously talking about editing's finer points, you complain when we're "fluff" and when an editor comes with a question as to what do to....you complain again because apparently we're not answering the matter the 'right' way.

Frankly, I don't know what else can be done. If the writer (whomever, whichever) can't see that what she done she did in good faith and because she wanted to help.....well....there's a problem right there.


Furthermore, you mention asking those kind of questions in a PM....but I don't know for you, but I don't know that many people who would be responsive to a lengthy PM discussion with someone they don't know from Adam (no offense meant to you here, sexylaila438).

I didn't "want" her to do anything. What she could have done, if she had experience in what you're trying to do here, is to post that she had a problem she'd like any other willing VE to coordinate with her about and to move the business to PM.

If you, "Lady" C had the experience to do what you're trying to do here, you would, as I already said, have taken the posting down or asked her to take it down and then suggested this same venue.

If the VEs here had any experience in this, at least one of them would have done the same.

And I'm sure you all will express genuine surprise when writers are reluctant to ask for help in an area where work they know or suspect is theirs is openly discussed (even if the general readership doesn't know it's their work).

That's at the base of the issue here. You don't have the real capability to do this responsibily. That doesn't mean the service isn't great--and isn't something many other Web sites don't offer--it means that you don't really know how to do it well or responsibily--you're busy with foul-mouthed vendettas targetted at anyone who doesn't please you or fall into your fan club. (But then maybe this isn't why some of the other Web sites aren't trying to provide the service).

The motto of editing: "First do no harm."

As for the rest of your postings, "Lady" C, I knew it wasn't in you to operate like anything other than a Joseph McCarthy attack committee.

But, I still will endeavor to post on this board three levels of civility better than you do. Which won't be hard to do, obviously.

P.S. You did ask me for an alt on what could have been done. And I gave one.

 

[Max ODrive]

LadyC, you're definitley right.. Laila did EXACTLY the right thing.. IMO, she did the only thing she could under the circumstances!

Seriously, if a writer can't send something to an editor for EDITING.. not just mere mechanics, they need to find something else to do with their time.

Its my job as a writer to create something worth reading.. its the job of an editor to GUIDE the writer into making sure it does what the writer intended it to do.. and to catch a few stupid mistakes... not to have to rewrite the whole damn thing..

Editors shouldn't have to waste their time fixing stupid spelling errors, or even have to go fix homonyms. An editor is there to do things to the story to make it better, not take care of writers who are too lazy to even use spell-check. There's a difference in helping someone who wants help.. and enabling someone to believe they're capable and they're not

Regardless of where the writer wants to post, unless they like looking like an idiot, they need to be villified here, not out in public. This IS the "private side" of Literotica.. once the story is posted, THAT is public.

The only way to make it "more private" is for the owner or an Admin to make a sub-forum ONLY for editors, set a group up ONLY for editors, and make it so only Editors, moderators and admins can access it.

Truth be told though, I think that would be a mistake. The only way a writer can become a BETTER writer is through criticism.. If criticism of another writer causes me to rethink something I'm doing, and I produce a better story because of it, then that post has done its job.

Besides, if I'm one of Laila's writers, and I feel so "unconfident" about the stories I've submitted to her that I think this post is about me, then I'd really want to sit down and take a look at what I'm doing and how I'm doing it. If she's posting for help about me, then I'm really screwing up somewhere and need to fix it!

However, this thread.. and this forum, as well as most of the other forums here are supposed to be for the BETTERMENT of Literotica.. not, as LadyC so eloquently put it, a pissing contest. If Laila and other editors faced with this dilemma are to get ANYTHING out of this thread, principles HAVE to come before personalities... otherwise, you're going to get the thread deleted and waste all the effort and good that comes from it.

Tossing out the baby with the bathwater may be fun once or twice, but it gets old having to go get more babies...