Vanilla Conversion

[Loverskitten]

Huh.

I don't see any sexual pleasure there.

Well Netz brought them up when I was comparing the about of strip clubs to male reviews. Although host/hostess clubs are more of a pay for companionship thing, I'm sure there's prostitution going on. Just like can often be the case at strip clubs, even though it's not supposed to happen.

 

[Netzach]

Huh.

I don't see any sexual pleasure there.

Ok, yes, granted. But it's a fairly exploitative work environment, it's about beauty and the idea of women purchasing beautiful company, being able to feel the center of attention, in my opinion, with women robbed of sexual entitlement to the degree that they are - this IS the closest we're going to see to the titty bar.

And yes, there is some overlap between prostitution and hostess and to a lesser degree, host bars.

 

[Netzach]

What I know the most about, regarding sex-based differences is from the trans community. people who are transitioning from male to female will tell you that an enormous array of sensory input has just opened up to them-- sound, taste, sight-- and a wider range of emotions. They become better at reading expression.

People who are transitioning from female to male will tell you that everything seems simpler-- hierarchal systems are easier to navigate (of course, those systems ARE designed by men FOR men in the first place) and they acquire a non stop porn film running in their brains for the first couple of years that takes some getting used to.

This very consistent story is one of the things that kind of helped me decide not to transition, BTW-- I only recently got the emotional array and the reading expressions stuff working for me, and it took a lot of work. I don't want to give it up now that I have it-- it's so much nicer for the people around me, I think.

It's so funny, when I run that on M. Always always crazy attuned to other people, always attuned to the outer environment like a barometer. I think I should have seen this all coming when I was always the person being woken in the night "did you hear that?....what's that?"

Hormones have meant -mainly enraged irrationally at times during the shot cycle, and I point out that when I was first getting my period it was a period of blind pointless rage at nothing on a regular basis. M was freaking out that the T levels were still somehow peaking, coming back like a monster in a monster movie - but it's the E, I'll bet money.

In the effort to relish how wonderful and sensitizing female-ness is I find a lot of MTF's are only in touch with the woo and the connectedness, and nobody really tells anyone to expect anything else. Hormones are crazy shit. The prize you get is a small one sometimes, the right name on your docs, being called "Miss" feeling like not everything is completely all-wrong. I know a lot of girls who are very very taken with their multiple orgasms and their new body and their new Goddess worship paganism, and etc. but I just don't see this in the cards chez moi, which is ok.

I dunno. I think it would be ridiculous to NOT allow people to find a place in the binary of gender, but I think it's also really really important to realize that it doesn't always sort into a binary either - I think the medical community is way behind on reality when dealing with non-binary gender people, precisely because it will run ONE study on 45 middle class white people and now they just know everything there is.

 

[Stella_Omega]

Ok, yes, granted. But it's a fairly exploitative work environment, it's about beauty and the idea of women purchasing beautiful company, being able to feel the center of attention, in my opinion, with women robbed of sexual entitlement to the degree that they are - this IS the closest we're going to see to the titty bar.

And yes, there is some overlap between prostitution and hostess and to a lesser degree, host bars.

Which is exactly my point.

And also, which to me is far more relevant because it's what I would rather be doing-- going to a prostitute or a pro dom/me for some physical, hands on, sexually oriented, stress motherfucking relief. I'm not saying it has to happen for womankind, or that it will happen someday or whatever it is that you're reading into my words there. I'm saying that it's really fucking hard to claw through the culture.

It's so funny, when I run that on M. Always always crazy attuned to other people, always attuned to the outer environment like a barometer.

Well, that's bullshit, of course. Like I said up in there, it took me fifty years to learn some decent attuning, and I have been female bodied the whole time. And there is no one as socially clueless as a newly-embodied trans woman trying to navigate the company of other lesbians with the shreds of her previous male privilege still wrapped around her ankles.

But something always feels like so very much more than nothing did, and I hear people talk about the change in wondering terms.

 

[IrisAlthea]

I believe all humans employ power & pain in the bedroom, albeit in degrees that vary widely. So the notion of this type of "conversion" doesn't make sense to me - even though all my partners have come from the allegedly vanilla pond.

Instead of a conversion, I see relationship development as a natural progression of sorts. Obviously, success depends on an appropriate matching of personalities and fundamental sexual wiring (whether labeled or not). But the same holds true for matching of ethics, senses of humor, etc.

This!

Well, worded this way.......

HOT




That's why I hate to mix ethics and sex.

Great, now I'm wiping tea from the computer screen again.

Well, there is scientific proof of the hormone release a woman experiences.
And I was mostly commenting on Stella's remark about why women can't have a bit of time, but need more. Men and women are just different. Ok how many "gentleman's clubs" are there verses "male reviews" (is that the right word?) I bet it's easily 1000 to 1. Admittedly, I didn't take into consideration gay clubs because it was sort of a gender comment to which, I was referring.

I really should find the link to that article. A woman posted it with the question of wether submissive/slave men would be more likely to stick with their partners. The article was depressing but made me think. Also brought up all the feelings I had watching this happen with my parents.
I wish there was more study on gay partners, but with current laws, that's probably not possible. Hopefully that'll change. One needs their loved ones by their side.
You bring a valid point about M/M relationships especially during that time. PBS (i believe) did a doccumentary about the AIDS breakout in San Fran. It's one of the saddest things I've watched. Maybe the problem isn't men, but straight men? Sorry guys *ducks and hides*

The same thing with hormones released during sex influencing bonding processes is true for males of any orientation.
We are very much influenced by our hormones but we are quite capable of ignoring them too. Otherwise people wouldn't be able to leave their small children (and talk about hormonal release) with others to go to work in cultures where that is expected of them and where it is rewarding enough, for example.

I have to respectfully disagree here, Stella. Cultural "nurture" influences aside, there are biological factors, with sound studies to prove them, that show significant differences between the genders. Right down to something as basic as vision.

On a personal level, I've traveled in a variety of social circles, in several different cultures and I have definitely noticed distinct male and female traits that carry through, consistently, in the majority of men and women.

I dislike gender stereotypes but I'd be a fool not to acknowledge there is some validity in their source. Even when I was doing stunts, there was a noticeable difference between the way most women approached a gag versus the way most men approached it.

Now, just how much of our differences are cultural and how much are biological is the big question, but the differences exist. Without hard data, my guess would be that the differences between genders is more likely equal or greater than the differences within genders.

There are differences but the difference between outliers within a group is still just as significant at least. We just tend to write off those people and forget about the overlap between the groups.

 

[njlauren]

Which is exactly my point.

And also, which to me is far more relevant because it's what I would rather be doing-- going to a prostitute or a pro dom/me for some physical, hands on, sexually oriented, stress motherfucking relief. I'm not saying it has to happen for womankind, or that it will happen someday or whatever it is that you're reading into my words there. I'm saying that it's really fucking hard to claw through the culture.

Well, that's bullshit, of course. Like I said up in there, it took me fifty years to learn some decent attuning, and I have been female bodied the whole time. And there is no one as socially clueless as a newly-embodied trans woman trying to navigate the company of other lesbians with the shreds of her previous male privilege still wrapped around her ankles.

But something always feels like so very much more than nothing did, and I hear people talk about the change in wondering terms.

That line about the cluelessness of newly embodied transwomen was a classic, Stella, thank you,brought back memories, some hilarious, some sad

 

[Keroin]

There are differences but the difference between outliers within a group is still just as significant at least. We just tend to write off those people and forget about the overlap between the groups.

Oh, I'm not suggesting there aren't differences within genders or that they aren't significant, only that they don't outnumber the differences between genders.

 

[Stella_Omega]

Oh, I'm not suggesting there aren't differences within genders or that they aren't significant, only that they don't outnumber the differences between genders.

We're going to have to count them now...

Dammit, I hate when that happens!

 

[Stella_Omega]

That line about the cluelessness of newly embodied transwomen was a classic, Stella, thank you,brought back memories, some hilarious, some sad

Heh-- sorry love-- sorta

 

[DRS_EROS]

OMG, you people are ALL so fucked up.

 

[Red Sonja]

OMG, you people are ALL so fucked up.

Yes, we are. Happily, it's the kind of fucked up that makes you want to join in, doesn't it? So your point is...? Did you have a thrilling tale to tell as well?? We'd just love to hear it. At least, I'm pretty sure Stella does.

 

[knot_sweet]

OMG, you people are ALL so fucked up.

Aawww Thanks... Aren't you a darlin' So sweet of you to say

 

[njlauren]

OMG, you people are ALL so fucked up.

Yeah, ain't it great? I would rather be fucked up then fucked over, anyway

I'm going coo coo, woo woo
Here comes the choo choo, ooh ooh
I'm loony tooney gooney wooney, tetched in the head
Please pass the ketchup, I think I'll go to bed
Am I the 8 ball, woo too, call me the screwball, or two
Oh, Once I knew a thing or two, but now I'm a buffer-oo, icky icky parly, woo woo

 

[Lancecastor]

OMG, you people are ALL so fucked up.

It's how they keep the forum to themselves.

 

[naughtyson4u]

Au contraire.

I think this idea that anyone can and will is complete bullshit, that's all. I smell a steaming pile of the usual horse shit, which is that all women are submissive, in the background of this statement. They're just waiting for magic penis to show them the way and the light.

You want to hear that you have a big dick and superpowers. Have your girl tell you that, then. You want to hear you've performed some feat of sex magic. No, you just found a compatible partner.

Not even sure of how I got here, but Netzach's invited to sit with Ouiser and I

Hero worship, possibly....helps there's oodles of confidence and our thoughts are aligned. Either way, I love it when someone saws ego off at the knees.

 

[dreamykitten2]

Omg u are soooo right!

You don't 'convert' someone, you bring out what was in them but never had been explored. Someone who gets nothing from bondage is not going to be 'converted' into a rope queen, someone who gets nothing out of corporal punishment is going to turn into a pain slut, and someone who isn't by nature sub isn't going to turn into one. It is very much what Michelangelo said about doing a statue, he didn't carve the rock into a statue, he brought out the statue that was already in the rock. I think kink can be hidden by a wall of fear and ignorance, buried from fear of what people would think, or maybe simply not having any exposure to it at all, but if it ain't there, you aren't going to 'convert' someone to it, and nothing in my 30 years in this scene has ever led me to believe differently.

Everything you said rings true for me. I had never given thought to being a sub till my then potential Dom talked to me and had me admitting I wanted it all. I had never really given thought to any of that. That was over a year ago. I have never been happier. He was right to help me to see what I wanted ! And I have done the same for some of my subs too! It's definetly something that was inside me and he helped me to see I wanted it!

 

[TactileCazza]

Vanilla - surely thats just an iceceam???

Dont jump down my throat (is quite a deep-throat btw) but I think each to their own. I found a lady who was my Domme and it was fantastic until I learnt the ropes (sorry) and I prefer to be a Femdom. I love finding what my partners enjoy, its not a pain experience, its a pleasure ride. Dont get me wrong 'naughty behaviour' its treated in a purely esoteric way. If its vanilla then make it more flavoursome and take it to another level. The greatest sex is orgasm with-holding and control, I love the pleading look in my sub's eyes, that is such a turn on! Merry christmas all you D/s out there! x

 

[njlauren]

I don't think the point was to denigrate 'vanilla' sex, rather it was saying that someone into 'vanilla' i.e non kink sex simply may not be into doing that stuff, any more then people in vanilla sex can be converted to do everything in that realm...some people may never do anal, may never do oral, may not be into going down on a woman having her period, may never do a threesome, simply because they aren't into it.

I don't think there is a dramatic line between vanilla and kinky sex, denying someone release is part of the D/s-BD/SM world, but also can simply be a way to drive a partner nuts in 'regular' sex.