Utah Mine Disaster continues, sadly...

[amicus]

Lives were lost and more injuries suffered by those miners attempting to rescue the six missing miners.

When an event such as this occurs and draws my interest, I bounce back and forth between all the various channels that provide coverage.

For those following this incident and related factors, you will understand my commentary, for those of you who do not, I will try to include some additional background for understanding.

Mining is a dangerous occupation, it always has been, all over the world, dangerous but, essential.

There are mine collapses, explosive gases, coal dust, (Black Lung Disease), hard, hot, nasty work that men do for various reasons.

Over fifty percent of all electricity generated in the United States, is accomplished by burning coal, creating steam and turning turbines.

It is a huge business and a large provider of jobs and capital investment.

The Media and the Politico's are searching for someone to 'blame' for the mine accident and the rescue effort..

I know, from listening, where they are going. Blame the company/corporation (read capitalism/free market) system for greedy mine owners. Secondly, blame government for not enforcing safety standards and inspections and fines.

Yes, this is a political thread, it is also a 'pre-emptive' one, to head off the 'usual suspects.

Labor Unions, the darlings of the Democrats, exist to protect their workers and their jobs. Sounds like a good deal, organized labor looking after the safety and welfare of their workers.

The Coal Miner's Union, in association and brotherhood with all other Unions, have worked incessantly to preserve jobs for miners, steel workers, auto workers and many, many more.

One of the ways all these Unions have strived to preserve jobs, is to prevent and stifle modernization that would eliminate jobs with technology and machinery.

It was the Labor Unions, in bed with the Democrats, who have halted construction of Nuclear and Natural Gas electricity generating plants to assure continued employment of union workers in the affected areas.

With the technology and machinery that has been available for over thirty years, there is no need to risk a human life in the dangerous occupation of coal mining.

That would eliminate perhaps ninety percent of union labor in the mines. It would also mean lower costs for production.

If you pay attention to the news on subjects such as this, I dare say you will not read a point of view similar to mine.

It is Media bias and government control and Union intimidation that has brought that about.

It is a very complex, amusing and irritating discussion, as eliminating burning coal, as a source for generating electricity would be environmentally preferable.

What a tangled web we weave, Charlotte...




Amicus...always what you suspect...and expect...

 

[only_more_so]

I don't want to get into the politics here, because I think the union argument is beside the point in this case. There will always be people in mines regardless of whether it is coal for power, or gold for jewelry or salt for food. You might as well blame environmentalists for having hissy fits about strip mining.

Anyway, my great grandfather was a coal miner, and my grandfather worked for a mining company which meant my mother grew up in a coal mining town. From what I've heard, conditions are hundreds of times better than back in the day. Black lung is largely a thing of the past. Cave-ins are actually rare enough to merit coverage on national news, rather than a few lines and a few obits in the regional rag.

I blame unions, pinkos, and greenos (anyone have a better derogatory term for tree huggers?) for many things, but not for the miners.

 

[amicus]

[QUOTE=only_more_so]I don't want to get into the politics here, because I think the union argument is beside the point in this case. There will always be people in mines regardless of whether it is coal for power, or gold for jewelry or salt for food. You might as well blame environmentalists for having hissy fits about strip mining.

Anyway, my great grandfather was a coal miner, and my grandfather worked for a mining company which meant my mother grew up in a coal mining town. From what I've heard, conditions are hundreds of times better than back in the day. Black lung is largely a thing of the past. Cave-ins are actually rare enough to merit coverage on national news, rather than a few lines and a few obits in the regional rag.

I blame unions, pinkos, and greenos (anyone have a better derogatory term for tree huggers?) for many things, but not for the miners.[/QUOTE]


~~~


Hmmm...okay...Rocket scientist...I see your point...

For some reason, over the years, mining has become an interest of mine, Diamond Mines in Africa, through a fiction author, "The Courtney's" author's name won't pop. Gold and Silver mines in America, Uranium mining as a curiosity, rare metals mining, for various reasons. The extraction of minerals for the benefit of man, a fascinating history, accumulated information that does me little good in most cases.

Whatever pursuit that man undertakes, change and efficiency and modernization happens, as it should and inevitably will, but...as with the old Guilds, and modern Unions, those advances have been delayed.

I defend my proposition that Unions have delayed modernization for the reasons I gave.

And, yes, mine safety has improved greatly over the years and I appreciate and understand that.

My point is that 'no' human lives need be risked in the industry were technology permitted to advance.

I stand by that.

Amicus...

 

[only_more_so]

I agree that unions are actually preventing the advancement on technology and in turn putting people in life threatening positions. Technology is able to replace many occupations and expose many fewer people to harm. It isn't capable of completely removing risk, but reducing the number of people exposed to risk is a certainty. But I don't think technology is quite to the point of entirely removing people from harm without extreme expense.

If a piece of technology costs 1 billion dollars to develop and implement, and it replaces 100 people who have a 1:100,000 chance of dying, then it is not cost effective. This is regardless of union views on the issue. Human labor, and human life is still much cheaper than the replacement technology.

If the unions hadn't been so pig-headed over the years, the cost might drop to half a billion, or a quarter of a billion, since incremental development would have advanced technology at a more organic rate. But soon, we are going to reach the point where technology is cheaper than human life.

I guess what I'm saying is that the "evil" mine owners are as much to blame for slowing the advancement of technology as the equally "evil" unions. Actually, in current practice I believe that unions are more inherently evil than owners. but either way, the bottom line is that the bottom line is to blame for people still being in mines.

 

[Le Jacquelope]

Mines in Canada seem to be safer than mines in the US.

When the last mine in Canada had a problem, the miners ran right into a safe room and survived. Little or no automation there. I'm sure there are unions in Canadian mines.

In China, where regulations are MORE lax than in the US, dozens deaths in a single mining accident are not uncommon. And there are no unions there. And still no automation there.


The common formula here is not unions. It's that the less regulations there are, the more loss of life there is.

 

[amicus]

I understand you again...but...your final statement, 'the bottom line..." thing...indicates a fault, I think, in your reasoning.

The 'bottom line', as I understand it, is simply operating at a profit; getting paid for your labor, be it coal miner or company CEO.

Nothing in life can be guaranteed as being totally 'safe'. An HBO series, "Dead Like Me", has an eighteen year old girl, college bound, killed by a falling toilet seat from an orbiting space station. People get killed frying burgers at McDonalds.

And yes, the 'bottom line' does dictate the amount of safety features incorporated in any operation, large or small.

But the 'bottom line'. which I read as 'profit motive', is inherent in human life. If, by our labor, we do not produce enough to survive, then we cease to exist.

Which, usually gives the incentive to produce at least as much as one requires.

Amicus...

 

[amicus]

Mines in Canada seem to be safer than mines in the US.

When the last mine in Canada had a problem, the miners ran right into a safe room and survived. Little or no automation there. I'm sure there are unions in Canadian mines.

In China, where regulations are MORE lax than in the US, dozens deaths in a single mining accident are not uncommon. And there are no unions there. And still no automation there.


The common formula here is not unions. It's that the less regulations there are, the more loss of life there is.

~~~

I note that you are following me around, sniffing my ass, to confront me...s'okay.

Tell us, oh, great one, just how much regulation and control do you desire?

Total?

Yeah, I thought so.


Amicus

 

[amicus]

I don't want to get into the politics here, because I think the union argument is beside the point in this case. There will always be people in mines regardless of whether it is coal for power, or gold for jewelry or salt for food. You might as well blame environmentalists for having hissy fits about strip mining.

Anyway, my great grandfather was a coal miner, and my grandfather worked for a mining company which meant my mother grew up in a coal mining town. From what I've heard, conditions are hundreds of times better than back in the day. Black lung is largely a thing of the past. Cave-ins are actually rare enough to merit coverage on national news, rather than a few lines and a few obits in the regional rag.

I blame unions, pinkos, and greenos (anyone have a better derogatory term for tree huggers?) for many things, but not for the miners.

~~~

I just heard on the news of a 'contest' for mine rescue workers, held every two years in Kentucky, and a history of how miners help each other.

I do not wish to look down on the history of mine workers, such as your Grandfather and many others who worked the mines.

It is the same, I think, for many occupations and professions, a 'kinship' developes and becomes a way of life and I respect and admire that.

But times change and not always gently or kindly. Whole generations of traditions and values are lost with change and progress. People revere the past, the history, their ancestors, the old ways, I know that, I would say, I mourn the passing of certain things.

I also know I cannot stop the future as it arrives, nor can I rationally feel sorrow. But I think those, like you perhaps, who have personal ties, can feel it deeper than I.

Amicus...

 

[S-Des]

Rescuers try to reach 181 Chinese miners

Terrible tragedy that doesn't look good for survivors.

 

[xssve]

The abuses of the coal moning industry prior to unionization in the Twenties and Thirties are legendary, unions have their problmes but like most things pubs bitch about, it's just market forces correcting for distortion - unions are market forces too, as are lawsuits, etc. Blame yourself if trying to get away with as much shit as you can in the name of profit generates a reaction formation.

I spent a year in Price one month drilling exploratory holes for NG - that is is some hard ass rock, we broke and wore out a half dozen bits very rapidly.

I don't know what conditions inthe mine were, but I suspect the hard rock has a lot to do with why they mine there the way they do, and these are old school miners, buncha huge Poles from up North, freaking gigantic - if they were smart, they'd be playing pro football.

Here where I live, further South, it's mostly sand and sandstone with the occasional volcanic basalt plug - and they strip mine.

I'm not sure that's a whole lot safer though, breath that silica dust for Twenty years and see where that gets you - I've already seen how well they take care of Uranium miners.

 

[amicus]

[I]

The abuses of the coal moning industry prior to unionization in the Twenties and Thirties are legendary, unions have their problmes but like most things pubs bitch about, it's just market forces correcting for distortion - unions are market forces too, as are lawsuits, etc. Blame yourself if trying to get away with as much shit as you can in the name of profit generates a reaction formation.

I spent a year in Price one month drilling exploratory holes for NG - that is is some hard ass rock, we broke and wore out a half dozen bits very rapidly.

I don't know what conditions inthe mine were, but I suspect the hard rock has a lot to do with why they mine there the way they do, and these are old school miners, buncha huge Poles from up North, freaking gigantic - if they were smart, they'd be playing pro football.

Here where I live, further South, it's mostly sand and sandstone with the occasional volcanic basalt plug - and they strip mine.

I'm not sure that's a whole lot safer though, breath that silica dust for Twenty years and see where that gets you - I've already seen how well they take care of Uranium miners.

[/I]

~~~

"...[I]

The abuses of the coal moning industry prior to unionization in the Twenties and Thirties are legendary, unions have their problmes but like most things pubs bitch about, it's just market forces correcting for distortion - unions are market forces too, as are lawsuits, etc. Blame yourself if trying to get away with as much shit as you can in the name of profit generates a reaction formation.

..."

~~~

You are so full of shit a laxative wouldn't help you need a massive enema.

The old 'Guild' societies of Feudal Europe, hoping to gain a foothold in a free nation, instituted 'Unions', not to benefit workers but to provide a living for Union Bosses and politicians and control supply and demand and thus the market.

A collapsed mine, an explosion, a cessation of production does not add to the profit balance of a company, thus, they work to avoid such incidents and accidents and therefore learn how to protect the mine and the workers with safer procedures.

You are so full of bullshit socialist propaganda I wonder why you even dare to post such trash.

Ignorance and stupidity are one thing, blatant Marxist Dialectic is another and you lose, big time.

Marx, Lenin and Trotsky were third rate clerks, a shovel and a pick in their hands might have taught them something about the real world although I doubt anything would impinge upon your faith.

Amicus...

 

[xssve]

You appear prone to mistake armchair quarterbacking based on sterile, abstract political logic, with actual experience and objective observation of empirical reality.

This is called "delusion".