Using basic terms incorrectly...

[BotanyBoy]

Yes, it IS really anarchy.

No, socialism and social justice is not anarchy.

The person having problems with basic terms here is not me.

Left wing = egalitarianism.

No, egalitarianism = egalitarianism.

Left wing is the political pursuit of egalitarianism.


Left-wing politics supports social equality and egalitarianism, often in opposition to social hierarchy and social inequality.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Left-wing_politics

Direct and explicit implication of government authority.

Not to mention the common sense fact that social and economic equity only has a snowballs chance in hell of happening under government authority.

Most anarchists are egalitarianists.

No, Most anarchist are gangsters and warlords.

Anarchism has NOTHING to do with being egalitarian, in fact it's in direct opposition to it seeing as social and economic hierarchy (shit the left hates) is the inevitable and natural state of social and economic affairs in the absence of government.

Definition of anarchism

1 :a political theory holding all forms of governmental authority to be unnecessary and undesirable and advocating a society based on voluntary cooperation and free association of individuals and groups

The two PRIMARY factors that define an anarchist put them in DIRECT conflict with egalitarianism and the social justice and socialism left wing politics demands in order to pursue it.

"Left wing" anarchist aren't anarchist....they are just socialist.

Definition of socialist

1 : one who advocates or practices socialism

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/socialist

 

[Freudian_Slit]

That's correct but it is dishonest on a number of levels to assign the right wing at large those.

But the fact remains that they are valid counterexamples. The political right cannot be synonymous with classical liberalism.

 

[BotanyBoy]

But the fact remains that they are valid counterexamples.

Being totally unrepresentative of the vast majority of and the commonly held definition of right wing politics .....not really no.

The political right cannot be synonymous with classical liberalism.

Except it's totally anti-socialist and social justice and in favor of capitalism and freedom of association. Making it evil right wing Nazi shit.

Classical liberalism is a political ideology, a branch of liberalism which advocates civil liberties under the rule of law with an emphasis on economic freedom. It is closely related to libertarianism and to free market capitalism.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classical_liberalism

If you think being free market everything, totally anti socialism and social justice isn't inherently right wing then I'd like to hear that argument.

But if you did...then sure I suppose you could argue that classical liberalism isn't right wing.

 

[Freudian_Slit]

Since we're going with Wikipedia:

Right-wing Politics

Right-wing politics hold that certain social orders and hierarchies are inevitable, natural, normal or desirable,[1][2][3] typically supporting this position on the basis of natural law, economics or tradition.[4](p693, 721)[5][6][7][8][9][page needed] Hierarchy and inequality may be viewed as natural results of traditional social differences[10][11] or the competition in market economies.[12][13] The term right wing can generally refer to "the conservative or reactionary section of a political party or system".[14]

...

Although the right-wing originated with traditional conservatives, monarchists and reactionaries, the term extreme right-wing has also been applied to movements including fascists, Nazis and racial supremacists.[21]

Again, this hardly synonymous with classical liberalism.

I understand political commentators in USA want to liken the right wing to something like their conception of conservatism, but in a broader sense this is a bastardization of the terminology.

 

[Que]

You are having a LOT of trouble. There are more than one kind of leftist. There are statists, and there are anti-statists. Anti-statists on the left are anarchists. Anti-statists on the right are militiamen.

Also, I've never met a left winger who advocated equal outcomes... perhaps you mean equal opportunity?

I don't expect you to get those terms either.

Just because the left says they favor equality doesnt change the fact that equal opportunity is rarely the standard used. Most, you definstely included point to disparity of outcome as specifically the evidence that the opportunities were not equal. Especially when you cannot point to a specific advantage that person A had that was unavailable to person B.

Egalitarians by their very nature are very much interested in outcomes. They are not the least bit interested in survival of the fittest, most talented, luckiest, or hardest working.

I am absolutely opposed to egalitarian ISM because every egalitarian scheme relies upon measurement of outcome to see whether adjustments need to be made which always means they're willing to sacrifice equality in the name of equity.

You can string words together so you're not stupid you don't sound like Sergeant Spidey so you're not simply being obtuse so the only thing left that I can figure is that you're being disingenuous or delusional about what is possible in any society of humans

 

[Freudian_Slit]

That's not egalitarianism, ya fuckin' numbskull.

 

[RobDownSouth]

So many of teh whackadoodle right cannot (or will not) understand the difference between "equal opportunity" and "equal outcome".

#DerpWithoutEndAmen

 

[BotanyBoy]

Since we're going with Wikipedia:

Right-wing Politics

Right-wing politics hold that certain social orders and hierarchies are inevitable, natural, normal or desirable,[1][2][3] typically supporting this position on the basis of natural law, economics or tradition.[4](p693, 721)[5][6][7][8][9][page needed] Hierarchy and inequality may be viewed as natural results of traditional social differences[10][11] or the competition in market economies.[12][13] The term right wing can generally refer to "the conservative or reactionary section of a political party or system".[14]

All 100% compatible with classical liberalism.

Although the right-wing originated with traditional conservatives, monarchists and reactionaries, the term extreme right-wing has also been applied to movements including fascists, Nazis and racial supremacists.

Again, this hardly synonymous with classical liberalism.

Again, it's also hardly synonymous with right wing and really only used by moronic left wingers who don't understand the difference between the left and right wing.

Like Daily who thinks the USSR was right wing and capitalist.

That's not egalitarianism, ya fuckin' numbskull.

The left seems to think it is.

If they didn't they wouldn't always be pushing socialism and social justice.

So many of teh whackadoodle right cannot (or will not) understand the difference between "equal opportunity" and "equal outcome".

#DerpWithoutEndAmen

It's generally speaking the folks who regularly point to income disparity and social class as absolute concrete proof of racism, sexism and white privilege who have the hard time understanding that difference.

 

[Freudian_Slit]

Compatible =/= synonymous.

 

[BotanyBoy]

Compatible =/= synonymous.

I never said it was.

But since you bring that up, conservatism, traditionalism and capitalist aren't synonymous with the common held definition of right wing either.

Do you also contend that those things aren't right wing?

Bottom line is classical liberalism as a political ideology fits rather neatly within the common definition of what RW is and is absolutely antithetical to the common definition of left wing. Besides you have to move the libertarians over to the left under the same arguments that the classical liberals are left wing.

You can call the pro capitalism, pro social and or economic stratification and hierarchy loving classical liberals left wing. Most don't though, because it's blatantly untrue.

 

[richard_daily]

No, Most anarchist are gangsters and warlords.

Anarchism has NOTHING to do with being egalitarian, in fact it's in direct opposition to it seeing as social and economic hierarchy (shit the left hates) is the inevitable and natural state of social and economic affairs in the absence of government.

Wrong.

You simply don't understand self-identified anarchists in the context of how they operate in the world.

I've given you a dozen examples of anarchists who ARE egalitarians... Warlords and gangsters don't claim to be anarchists.

Show me one who does.

Anarchists can be (and often are) egalitarians... which IS left wing.

Your flailing around trying to use half of one dictionary definition, and 1/3 of another (from another dictionary) doesnt prove anything.

 

[Rightguide]

I was going to post but BB has littered the field with so many slippery bloody strips of butt cheek one can't even stand-up without crampons and I left mine at home.

 

[BotanyBoy]

Wrong.

You simply don't understand self-identified anarchists in the context of how they operate in the world.

Self identifying as something doesn't make it so.

The second they advocate anything beyond do whatever the fuck you want or think you can manage to get away with, they are by default supporting some sort of government authority and are thus by definition no longer anarchist. Because anything other than everyone for themselves is going to REQUIRE some form of government authority, something the anarchist rejects.

I've given you a dozen examples of anarchists who ARE egalitarians...

Support of socialism, social justice and communism (egalitarianism) does not make you an anarchist.

Warlords and gangsters don't claim to be anarchists.

They don't have to in order to be so.

They operate in total and open defiance of any and all government authority. They don't support government power of any kind. They are their own government and they do what they want, they are anarchist because they are walking the walk, not because they are self identifying as anarchist while supporting socialism and social justice.

Anarchists can be (and often are) egalitarians... which IS left wing.

1) not just egalitarianism but political/economic "egalitarianism" is left wing.

2) No they cannot, here is why.

Egalitarian social and economic legal structures require some sort of government authority to force it, because the reality is that not all people are equal. Without government the idea of equality is laughable. That's why the left supports socialism and social justice so adamantly with dreams of the utopian communist world in mind as the end goal.

This critical requirement of government authority for left wing "egalitarianism" to have a snowballs chance in hell of coming even remotely close to happening is something anarchist by definition are absolutely against.

The ONLY equality an anarchist might support is the right for all to be equally free from government rule. Everyone for themselves, survival of the fittest, social and economic darwinism...total fucking savagery. Which totally fucking offends the leftist as well as the RW who believes in their own brand of social/economic controls.

The only modern political concept anarchism is not in total conflict with is free market capitalism. While it doesn't preclude all social control like anarchism, it does reject the idea of government authority over economic activity just like anarchism.

Your flailing around trying to use half of one dictionary definition, and 1/3 of another (from another dictionary) doesnt prove anything.

I'm not flailing at all, I used full definitions and linked the sources.

And not a fuckin' one of them said anything about it being it being left wing. The best you've got is wiki verification that some some socialist/communist self identify as anarchist. Largely based upon the delusional assumption that equality (most were so delusional they were talking about equity) will happen without government.

 

[richard_daily]

Self identifying as something doesn't make it so.

The second they advocate anything beyond do whatever the fuck you want or think you can manage to get away with, they are by default supporting some sort of government authority and are thus by definition no longer anarchist. Because anything other than everyone for themselves is going to REQUIRE some form of government authority, something the anarchist rejects.



Support of socialism, social justice and communism (egalitarianism) does not make you an anarchist.



They don't have to in order to be so.

They operate in total and open defiance of any and all government authority. They don't support government power of any kind. They are their own government and they do what they want, they are anarchist because they are walking the walk, not because they are self identifying as anarchist while supporting socialism and social justice.



1) not just egalitarianism but political/economic "egalitarianism" is left wing.

2) No they cannot, here is why.

Egalitarian social and economic legal structures require some sort of government authority to force it, because the reality is that not all people are equal. Without government the idea of equality is laughable. That's why the left supports socialism and social justice so adamantly with dreams of the utopian communist world in mind as the end goal.

This critical requirement of government authority for left wing "egalitarianism" to have a snowballs chance in hell of coming even remotely close to happening is something anarchist by definition are absolutely against.

The ONLY equality an anarchist might support is the right for all to be equally free from government rule. Everyone for themselves, survival of the fittest, social and economic darwinism...total fucking savagery. Which totally fucking offends the leftist as well as the RW who believes in their own brand of social/economic controls.

The only modern political concept anarchism is not in total conflict with is free market capitalism. While it doesn't preclude all social control like anarchism, it does reject the idea of government authority over economic activity just like anarchism.



I'm not flailing at all, I used full definitions and linked the sources.

And not a fuckin' one of them said anything about it being it being left wing. The best you've got is wiki verification that some some socialist/communist self identify as anarchist. Largely based upon the delusional assumption that equality (most were so delusional they were talking about equity) will happen without government.

Wrong (as usual). You refuse to comprehend.

You have been schooled thoroughly on the subject, but you cling to your incorrect views, that aren't backed up by history, fact, or definition...

Anarchists are historically left wing. This is documented, and proven.

They are NOT capitalists, in any large numbers. They are anti-capitalists in large numbers.

This is what anarchists are in the real world. Not in your fantasy world.

The world that you believe to exist: doesn't. That's the reason why you haven't been able to provide any real world examples outside of the generic "black market", which isn't anarchy anyways... It's simply people existing outside of the law. Those aren't incongruous, but they also aren't the same thing.

You're going to believe what you want to believe, regardless of facts that show otherwise.

 

[BotanyBoy]

Wrong (as usual). You refuse to comprehend.

You have been schooled thoroughly on the subject, but you cling to your incorrect views, that aren't backed up by history, fact, or definition...

Anarchists are historically left wing. This is documented, and proven.

Then maybe you should explain how supporting left wing government is anarchism and not socialism.

It's documented and proven that a lot of socialist like to LARP as anarchist....while not supporting anarchism at all. It's not documented and proven that anarchism (actual) is left wing.

They are NOT capitalists, in any large numbers.

Free association and exchange of goods and services on a free market (something anarchism provides) is capitalism.

The reason they are "NOT" capitalist is because they probably don't know what the fuck capitalism is. Seeing as they are usually socialist they have probably been brainwashed by other socialist to think capitalism is rich people doing evil shit. Not private ownership of property (means) and the ability to freely exchange it with others (an open/free market) for profit.

They are anti-capitalists in large numbers.

Anarchism is far more incompatible with socialism and communism which require government authority than capitalism which does not and thus anarchism facilitates.

Real anarchist are the ultimate free market capitalist.

This is what anarchists are in the real world. Not in your fantasy world.

The "anarchist" you're describing are generic socialist and communist (egalitarians)...not anarchist.

It's simply people existing outside of the law. Those aren't incongruous, but they also aren't the same thing.

Rejecting government authority is far truer to the label anarchist than is being a socialist/communist which is in direct contradiction to the definition of anarchism.

You're going to believe what you want to believe, regardless of facts that show otherwise.

No, I'm going to listen to what the authoritative definition says and it is instead of some guy on the internet who thinks the USSR is right wing capitalist and anarchism doesn't REALLY have anything to do with anarchy but is totally pro socialism and communism.


Definition of anarchism

1 :a political theory holding all forms of governmental authority to be unnecessary and undesirable and advocating a society based on voluntary cooperation and free association of individuals and groups
2 :the advocacy or practice of anarchistic principles

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/anarchism

Notice, for the umpteenth time it doesn't say anything about "except socialism, communism or other totally rad left wing government!!" anywhere in the definition of anarchism. It says all government....which shits on the whole left wing egalitarian derp....

 

[Rightguide]

My my, the butchery continues.

 

[BotanyBoy]

My my, the butchery continues.

He can't read the definition of anarchism, it's too contradictory to his mistaken belief that anarchist are really just another kind of socialist.

Either that or he's so fucking drunk on left wing love juice he actually thinks the outright rejection of all government authority, is somehow left wing. Despite centralized government authority being absolutely central to the left wing and everything associated with it.

But he can't explain how. Kinda like those capitalist right wing Soviets LOL

The best Daily can do is post a wiki link that says some folks who want economic and social equity (socialist and communist) are anarchist because they self identify as such.

I wonder if he would argue that this person, who self identifies as a feline, is actually not a human being but a feline.

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/QciGXQ3PQl0/hqdefault.jpg

Whaddya say Daily? Feline or Homo sapien??

 

[richard_daily]

He can't read the definition of anarchism, it's too contradictory to his mistaken belief that anarchist are really just another kind of socialist.

Either that or he's so fucking drunk on left wing love juice he actually thinks the outright rejection of all government authority, is somehow left wing. Despite centralized government authority being absolutely central to the left wing and everything associated with it.

But he can't explain how. Kinda like those capitalist right wing Soviets LOL

The best Daily can do is post a wiki link that says some folks who want economic and social equity (socialist and communist) are anarchist because they self identify as such.

I wonder if he would argue that this person, who self identifies as a feline, is actually not a human being but a feline.

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/QciGXQ3PQl0/hqdefault.jpg

Whaddya say Daily? Feline or Homo sapien??

I've given you real world examples of left wing anarchy. You've given me no real world examples of "right wing" anarchy.

I've linked you to dozens of articles, definitions, and wikis that show that anarchy is aligned with the left wing.

You've ignored them.

Nothing can break through to you, because it's not what you WANT to believe. That desire to have capitalism be some false bastion for "freedom" trumps all reason, logic, and evidence. You're a capitalist fundamentalist.

 

[Rightguide]

He can't read the definition of anarchism, it's too contradictory to his mistaken belief that anarchist are really just another kind of socialist.

Either that or he's so fucking drunk on left wing love juice he actually thinks the outright rejection of all government authority, is somehow left wing. Despite centralized government authority being absolutely central to the left wing and everything associated with it.

But he can't explain how. Kinda like those capitalist right wing Soviets LOL

The best Daily can do is post a wiki link that says some folks who want economic and social equity (socialist and communist) are anarchist because they self identify as such.

I wonder if he would argue that this person, who self identifies as a feline, is actually not a human being but a feline.

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/QciGXQ3PQl0/hqdefault.jpg

Whaddya say Daily? Feline or Homo sapien??

I'm almost afraid to ask if she goes as far as to use a litter box, but I kinda know this asshole doesn't spend his time on a hot rock in the AZ desert:

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/05/03/95/05039574ebea6b2041cf5e79c9afab20.jpg

 

[BotanyBoy]

I've given you real world examples of left wing anarchy.

No you haven't, you've given me real world examples of socialist who claim anarchism. Every one of them flying right in the face of the definition of anarchism.

You've given me no real world examples of "right wing" anarchy.

I never claimed anarchy was right wing, I've repeatedly claimed that it's no wing.

I've linked you to dozens of articles, definitions, and wikis that show that anarchy is aligned with the left wing.

Yes you can link, but make no arguments of your own. Pathetic method of argumentation, I've seen better from a 7 year old as recently as yesterday.

And NO you haven't linked a SINGLE definition that definitively puts anarchism in the left wing. None of the common definitions found in dictionaries make such an absurd claim or say anything about a wing. They all say it's the total rejection of government authority....which shits all over being left wing.

Also the articles/wikis all show socialist claiming anarchism because they are fucking morons and apparently don't know what the difference between socialism, communism and anarchism are. They don't definitively make or even attempt to argue that anarchism is left wing.

You've ignored them.

No I've argued against them and you can't do anything but point at the link and say "Butt!!....BUTT!!" .

Nothing can break through to you, because it's not what you WANT to believe.

The only person here wanting to believe is you, you want to believe that anarchism is really socialism....because some other idiots said so and you really want anti-fa to not be as retarded as it is.

That desire to have capitalism be some false bastion for "freedom" trumps all reason, logic, and evidence. You're a capitalist fundamentalist.

I don't have to desire that, capitalism is that by definition......


Definition of capitalism

:an economic system characterized by private or corporate ownership of capital goods, by investments that are determined by private decision, and by prices, production, and the distribution of goods that are determined mainly by competition in a free market

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/capitalism

 

[BotanyBoy]

I'm almost afraid to ask if she goes as far as to use a litter box, but I kinda know this asshole doesn't spend his time on a hot rock in the AZ desert:

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/05/03/95/05039574ebea6b2041cf5e79c9afab20.jpg

Maybe he doesn't "self-identify" as reptilian so it's totally not the same.

If he "self-identified" as a reptilian he would actually be reptilian at that point and be able to sun on AZ rocks.

Right Daily?

I'm wondering at what point he will admit self identifying as something on wiki doesn't make it an indisputable fact.

 

[richard_daily]

I never claimed anarchy was right wing, I've repeatedly claimed that it's no wing.

Never, huh?

Want to take a guess at why those anarchist, libertarians and other free market capitalist out there are considered right wing?

http://forum.literotica.com/showpost.php?p=87650814&postcount=189


I guess now you're going to argue with me about the definition of "never".

 

[BotanyBoy]

Never, huh?



http://forum.literotica.com/showpost.php?p=87650814&postcount=189


I guess now you're going to argue with me about the definition of "never".

And I still stand by that....lots of folks consider it right wing because it's so facilitative of free market capitalism and social darwinism. Totally the opposite of the left wing.

That's not the same as me claiming it's right wing, learn to read.

I still claim as I have from the get go that anarchism is no wing because it rejects all forms of government authority. I argued that directly numerous times, against your claims that it's totally socialism and or communism like you want to pretend.

But you ignore it and link up some verification of socialist/communist self-identifying as anarchist as if that's some irrefutable proof that anarchism is really just a branch of socialism.

 

[richard_daily]

And I still stand by that....lots of folks consider it right wing because it's so facilitative of free market capitalism and social darwinism.

That's not the same as me claiming it's right wing. I still claim it's no wing because it rejects all forms of government authority....ergo no wing. It's political atheism, not socialism and or communism like you want to pretend.

So you're "standing by" the statement where you claim anarchy is right wing, but you're also saying you're not wrong when you stated that you never said anarchy is right wing.

Got it.

 

[BotanyBoy]

So you're "standing by" the statement where you claim anarchy is right wing,

I didn't claim anarchy is right wing, you need to learn how to read....in a bad way.

Pointing out others commonly held beliefs isn't the same as claiming those beliefs as your own.