Use of "guys" or "you guys" to address a group of women

[MrPixel]

I am writing a serial about a "modern harem", and in conversation the characters frequently address two or more of the others, usually ladies, as "guys" or "you guys". On proofreading a just-completed chapter, C (my spouse) threw a small fit with her red pen, calling out my conversational use of "guys" when addressing a gathered group of the ladies. Such as:

"But contractors know they have us by the short hairs," Cheyenne confirms.

"Uhhhhh... look around this table, guys," Amber interrupts. "There are no such 'short hairs' anywhere to be found."

You get the gist. C says it's offensive to women, Merriam-Webster defines it in sense 1b as "used in plural to refer to the members of a group regardless of sex". Other online dictionaries say something similar, that "guys" is a plural for a group, to which I add, "usually familiar". I'd check OED, but I don't have a subscription.

To submit to C's point of view I would have a buttload of editing to do to purge "guys" or otherwise reduce the use of it. However, I don't want to overuse "you ladies" too much to represent the same sense of familiarity, nor "you girls"; the former can be a little stuffy in playful banter, the latter a little diminishing. The ladies are the protagonist's best of friends as well as his lovers, so "you guys" certainly works for me.

What say ye?

 

[Handley_Page]

"But contractors know they have us by the short hairs," Cheyenne confirms.

"Uhhhhh... look around this table, guys," Amber interrupts. "There are no such 'short hairs' anywhere to be found."

This might be OK if they were all in the nude. Suggest:
-
"There are no such 'short hairs' anywhere to be seen."

This time, I think you might get away with guys.
Normally, I'd say no.

 

[MelissaBaby]

It's not a question of whether or not you, or your wife, would use it. Would the character use it? If so, it's right to use.

 

[KeithD]

Nothing sets my wife off more than being addressed as "you guys."

 

[Seadog777]

It's not frakking offensive, FFS

 

[JuanaSalsa]

As with anything, opinions will vary. As a woman, I have no issue with either being included with a group of men as one of the guys nor with using it to address a mixed gender group, or all female group.

 

[Carnevil9]

In real life, I've frequently seen a woman address a group of women as "you guys." I think it's less common (but not unheard of) for a man to address a group of women that way.

 

[LdyHoneybee]

I am writing a serial about a "modern harem", and in conversation the characters frequently address two or more of the others, usually ladies, as "guys" or "you guys". On proofreading a just-completed chapter, C (my spouse) threw a small fit with her red pen, calling out my conversational use of "guys" when addressing a gathered group of the ladies. Such as:



You get the gist. C says it's offensive to women, Merriam-Webster defines it in sense 1b as "used in plural to refer to the members of a group regardless of sex". Other online dictionaries say something similar, that "guys" is a plural for a group, to which I add, "usually familiar". I'd check OED, but I don't have a subscription.

To submit to C's point of view I would have a buttload of editing to do to purge "guys" or otherwise reduce the use of it. However, I don't want to overuse "you ladies" too much to represent the same sense of familiarity, nor "you girls"; the former can be a little stuffy in playful banter, the latter a little diminishing. The ladies are the protagonist's best of friends as well as his lovers, so "you guys" certainly works for me.

What say ye?

It is a regionalism. I grew up in the central Midwest (US) where ”you guys” goes for both males and females. Moved down South where it is “y’all.” It was not much of an adjustment for me because some of my family are from the South, so “y’all” was not a completely foreign expression. I almost do not say “you guys” generally anymore, only when I am speaking only to guys.

 

[DouglasFinney]

The OED states that “you guys” is general neutral. As already noted, it depends on whether or not it’s appropriate for your characters to use the locution, and that appropriateness will depend on the setting of the story. “You guys” is common in the western part of the US and more frequent in some of middle America, but in the southern states it’s going to be “y’all.”

 

[MrPixel]

YES! Thanks, you guys nailed it. The story is entirely in and of the Midwest. That's where my own speaking habits have deteriorated from the original "California correct" of my English teachers.

BTW, I lived in Atlanta for 10 years. I know all about y'all. And "all y'all", too. And sweet tea, and grits. Especially Waffle House grits.

 

[Seadog777]

It is a regionalism. I grew up in the central Midwest (US) where ”you guys” goes for both males and females. Moved down South where it is “y’all.” It was not much of an adjustment for me because some of my family are from the South, so “y’all” was not a completely foreign expression. I almost do not say “you guys” generally anymore, only when I am speaking only to guys.

I've been to 5 of the 7 continents on Earth, and in all 5, they used the word "y'all"

I busted my guts laughing my ass off, when I heard a Japanese man in Tokyo use the word.

 

[lovecraft68]

So a prick with a harem isn't offensive to women, but calling them you guys is.

This one of those moments I envision my mother in law(RIP) when she would throw her hands in the air and exclaim(with full older Italian lady drama) "I can't!"

 

[Bramblethorn]

I am writing a serial about a "modern harem", and in conversation the characters frequently address two or more of the others, usually ladies, as "guys" or "you guys". On proofreading a just-completed chapter, C (my spouse) threw a small fit with her red pen, calling out my conversational use of "guys" when addressing a gathered group of the ladies. Such as:



You get the gist. C says it's offensive to women, Merriam-Webster defines it in sense 1b as "used in plural to refer to the members of a group regardless of sex". Other online dictionaries say something similar, that "guys" is a plural for a group, to which I add, "usually familiar". I'd check OED, but I don't have a subscription.

Dictionaries are rarely the final word on questions like this. English is a complicated language full of nuance, baggage, and regionalisms; it's impossible to fully summarise that kind of thing in a brief dictionary entry. Your Merriam-Webster gives both a gendered and a gender-neutral usage.

IME, it can go either way and it depends a lot on the vibe of the group. It's more likely to be a problem in a group that has other sexism issues, where it could credibly be taken as implying that women are an afterthought. In a female-friendly setting, less of an issue. It's plausible that characters in a story might use it without anybody objecting, and it's also plausible that some would object as your wife did.

 

[ElectricBlue]

I rely on my daughter for this kind of thing - here in Oz her peer usage of "guys" is gender free (or all gender inclusive, take your pick), and there's no sexist baggage attached.

In a story, as Melissa notes, it would be all down to the character. It would never occur to me to worry about alternative readings and readers maybe getting upset - if they do, it's their issue, not mine.

 

[oggbashan]

For me, it would depend on location and context.

No one I know would ever be likely to say or to have said that in the past, whether to a mixed or women-only group.

A generic 'you' would be more likely. 'You guys' would cause raised eyebrows at least.

PS. Even the use of the word 'guys' in any situation except to describe a group of Guy Fawkes dummies, would be very unusual locally.

 

[MrPixel]

Ogg, I sort of suspected the UK contingent here would lean toward the traditional use of "guy" and "guys", and I was aware of the Guy Fawkes tradition. As the others confirmed, it's a regionalism, and proper in the context of the story.

C's opinion is rooted in her 1950s West Coast education. I recall from mine in the next decade that "guys" was still being taught to denote male gender. The generic definition of "guys" was just starting to come into the common lexicon about that time, and I recall some of my later teachers and professors relenting to that particular usage being acceptable. We sometimes forget that language is dynamic.

 

[LdyHoneybee]

I've been to 5 of the 7 continents on Earth, and in all 5, they used the word "y'all"

I busted my guts laughing my ass off, when I heard a Japanese man in Tokyo use the word.

That’s social media for ya! At least they figured out that, unlike “you guys,” “y’all” is gender-neutral. That is funny and interesting. Thanks! I love language and linguistics. What is REALLY funny is to hear someone speaking their own language and then dropping an English word for something that is relatively new to their environment like “supermarket” Into the middle of a sentence. But I guess we do it too. Nobody has ever tried to substitute anything for “valet” (which in the States we say the French way without the “t”) or ”bidet.”

 

[SimonDoom]

It is not wrong to write your characters talking the way people actually talk in real life.

Where I come from, in the USA, it is not uncommon for both men and women to use the phrase "you guys" when addressing groups that include men and women.

I admit that as a sometime English stickler this phrase bugs me. I dislike it when a waiter, for instance, addresses the table at which I am sitting with a mixed gender group with the phrase "you guys." I wish waiters would not do that. But waiters DO do that.

So, there's no basis for getting mad at an author for using this phrase in the mouth of a character in a story, because this is the way people in the real world actually talk, whether you like it or not.

NO author is obligated to write his or her characters, or their manner of dialogue, in a way that conforms to your political or linguistic norms. To insist otherwise is to be a tendentious, and I think silly, Philistine.

 

[TheRedChamber]

Ogg, I sort of suspected the UK contingent here would lean toward the traditional use of "guy" and "guys", and I was aware of the Guy Fawkes tradition. As the others confirmed, it's a regionalism, and proper in the context of the story.

Have to disagree with Ogg here - I'm from the UK and 'you guys' would be fine with a group of ladies. It may be an age related thing.

At this point, I'd write the controversy into the story - have the prim new recruit to the harem complain about its usage.

 

[ElectricBlue]

I admit that as a sometime English stickler this phrase bugs me. I dislike it when a waiter, for instance, addresses the table at which I am sitting with a mixed gender group with the phrase "you guys." I wish waiters would not do that. But waiters DO do that.

For me, it's a sign of slightly better front of house training when waiters don't use "guys" as their automatic, generic, go to, form of address.

Sometimes it seems too casual, sometimes it's just right - one can sense a good waiter knowing when it's appropriate, when it's not. For example, when at lunch with my dear mother (eighty-four when she died), she was never once addressed as "guys", but when this old fart is out with his sprogs and their partners, it's nowadays more common.

One must pick one's establishments more selectively, Master Doom .

 

[Rustyoznail]

If the waitstaff wear jeans and a t-shirt - I'd expect them to use "guys" when addressing the table.

My niece is nearly 21 and has used the term "guys" for years. (I had written "üsed guys for years" but that could be misinterpreted...)

 

[XerXesXu]

Back in the 60s, my mate and I were romancing a group of girls from New York who were in London on holiday. They referred to each other as 'you guys', which was strange to my ear. When I asked why, they shrugged their shoulders and said,' We just do." I assumed all Americans used it in that way.

 

[SimonDoom]

One must pick one's establishments more selectively, Master Doom .

I won't do that. I don't pick my restaurants based on the waiters' diction. I'll pick based on the food. Sometimes one wants the kind of food that's served at a restaurant where the use of "guys" is a risk, and it's a risk I'm willing to take. But I'll grumble to myself if I don't like the diction. The choices one has to make when one has become an old fart.

 

[MsNatalie99]

My sister greets all her friends with "What up Bitches". It all just depends on your characters and the context. For a bunch of women in a harem, it's a weird place to draw the line.

 

[TarnishedPenny]

It's not a question of whether or not you, or your wife, would use it. Would the character use it? If so, it's right to use.

Maybe so. On the other hand, neither you nor I nor the character have to live with Ms C.