Untold histories of pre/post World War2

[mayfly13]

We're now re-living ww2, so-to speak, given the covert ww3 happening in Ukraine. Or at least the Ukraine-Russia war stimulated people's appetite to learn a different history of ww2 - other than the one taught in mainstream publications.

I learned that Winston Churchill was both a ww2 hero, and a eugenicist. That eugenic beliefs were far more common among AngloSax Elites pre-ww2, and that Hitler was a bit of History's patsy, so to speak.
That Ukrainian Nazis butchered many Russians and "brown" people, during ww2.
That Russian 'liberating' troupes went on to spread havoc and do mass rapes in Germany&, after ww2.

--Not to idealize or absolve 'brown' people or nations tho, they, too, did things that were just as bad.​

What alternative facts did You learn, I mean facts that were left out of mainstream books?

 

[mayfly13]

for example ---- re Winston Churchill, ww2 hero and eugenicist
Fascinating article:

"You may enthuse endlessly about Winston Churchill “single-handedly” defeating Hitler. But mention his views on race or his colonial policies, and you’ll be instantly drowned in ferocious and orchestrated vitriol. Nothing, it seems, can be allowed to complicate, let alone tarnish, the national myth of a flawless hero: an idol who “saved our civilisation”, as Boris Johnson claims, or “humanity as a whole”, as David Cameron did.

Just because Hitler was a racist does not mean Churchill could not have been one. Britain entered the war, after all, because it faced an existential threat – and not primarily because it disagreed with Nazi ideology. Noting affinities between colonial and Nazi race-thinking, African and Asian leaders queried Churchill’s double standards in firmly rejecting self-determination for colonial subjects who were also fighting Hitler.

It is worth recalling that the uncritical Churchill-worship that is so dominant today was not shared by many British people in 1945, when they voted him out of office before the war was even completely over. Many working-class communities in Britain, from Dundee to south Wales, felt strong animosity towards Churchill for his willingness to mobilise military force during industrial disputes. As recently as 2010, Llanmaes community council opposed the renaming of a military base to Churchill Lines."


Why can't Britain handle the truth about Winston Churchill?
Priyamvada Gopal, 17/05/2021
https://www.theguardian.com/comment...tain-handle-the-truth-about-winston-churchill

 

[Rightguide]

We're now re-living ww2, so-to speak, given the covert ww3 happening in Ukraine. Or at least the Ukraine-Russia war stimulated people's appetite to learn a different history of ww2 - other than the one taught in mainstream publications.

I learned that Winston Churchill was both a ww2 both hero, and was a eugenicist. That eugenic beliefs were far more common among AngloSax Elites pre-ww2, and that Hitler was a bit of History's patsy, so to speak.
That Ukrainian Nazis butchered many Russians and "brown" people, during ww2.
That Russian 'liberating' troupes went on to spread havoc and mass rapes in Germany&, after ww2.

--Not to idealize or absolve 'brown' people or nations tho, they, too, did things that were just as bad.​

What alternative facts did You learn, I mean facts that were left out of mainstream books?

Woodrow Wilson, W.E.B. Du Bois, and Margarite Sanger were prominent American eugenicists among many others.

 

[mayfly13]

Woodrow Wilson, W.E.B. Du Bois, and Margarite Sanger were prominent American eugenicists among many others.

My biggest shock, going through your list was to see that H.G.Wells and Bernard Shaw were eugenicists too.
Because in The Devil's disciple, Shaw exposed his Elite's religious bigotry and cut-throat ideas about the little guy.

 

[Rightguide]

My biggest shock, going through your list was to see that H.G.Wells and Bernard Shaw were eugenicists too.
Because in some of their works, both exposed their Elites bigotry and cut-throat ideas.

Goes all the way back to Plato. The key to understanding history is to be sure to view it and judge it in its own historical context. It's a mistake to see it through the lens of today's morality.

 

[mayfly13]

Goes all the way back to Plato. The key to understanding history is to be sure to view it and judge it in its own historical context. It's a mistake to see it through the lens of today's morality.

good point.
Let me add my own little nuance to it:

I still partly judge it through today's morality.

I don't blame people for being born into and indoctrinated by a racist system.
But once they witness suffering (like the killings of Native Americans by Brits and Germans, of slaves by Ottomans or of South Americans by Spain), they should become aware of the cracks within their doctrines as taught by Elites.

 

[mayfly13]

My biggest shock was to subconsciously realize, only a few years back, that I'm living in a society still permeated by Aryan-Nazi ideology. It's so subtly ingrained in British culture (UK & colonies), that even well-meaning people like ogg and butters don't realize their biases.

Right-wingers practice racism by portraying browns as imoral, violent animals,
Left-wingers by treating browns like vulnerable flowers in need of their saving.

There are Many Brits who are moderate, but I find them among immigrants.
In fact, I find Brit immigrants, as opposed to some of the continental minded ones, to be the among the best immigrants.








=========

ps - I'm focusing on Brits because that's the society we all live in, don't we? Former colonies were created by Brits.
If I lived in Russia Mongolia or Sudan, I'd pick them apart too.

 

[ll74]

Left-wingers by treating browns like vulnerable flowers in need of their saving.

That's a strange way of saying "human beings"

 

[mayfly13]

That's a strange way of saying "human beings"

It's relevant to the topic I'm discussing.
Rest assured I never use the British/American terminology "whites, wogs or browns" in any other discussions,

 

[ll74]

It's relevant to the topic I'm discussing.
Rest assured I never use the British/American terminology "whites, wogs or browns" in any other discussions,

You actually used the term "vulnerable flowers"

 

[iso36]

You actually used the term "vulnerable flowers"

luk’s softball team?

 

[Fuzzy1975]

luk’s softball team?

Right, now I remember you, the idiot who didn't know about two speed rear ends......

 

[iso36]

Right, now I remember you, the idiot who didn't know about two speed rear ends......

luk and sean?

 

[Fuzzy1975]

luk and sean?

and I see your progression has only gone in the reverse direction. *chuckles*

 

[iso36]

and I see your progression has only gone in the reverse direction. *chuckles*

Viscous coupling joke.

 

[Fuzzy1975]

Viscous coupling joke.

It was? Sure fooled me. Seemed more like a nit wit comment from the peanut gallery.

 

[JohnEngelman]

Woodrow Wilson, W.E.B. Du Bois, and Margarite Sanger were prominent American eugenicists among many others.

Computer technology and automation are eliminating jobs that can be learned by people of below average intelligence. People of below average intelligence are more prolific than people of above average intelligence. If current trends continue a growing percentage of the world's population will be congenitally incapable of doing anything useful for a living. The Nazi effort to exterminate the most superior race in existence has led to the delusions that there are no inferior races, and no inferior people.

 

[JohnEngelman]

In the first edition of Marriage and Morals, published in 1929, Bertrand Russell wrote:

In extreme cases, there can be little doubt of the superiority of one race to another. North America, Australia, and New Zealand certainly contribute more to the civilization of the world than they would do if they were still peopled by aborigines. It seems on the whole fair to regard negroes as on the average inferior to white men), although for work in the tropics they are indispensable, so that their extermination (apart from questions of humanity) would be highly undesirable. But when it comes to discriminating among the races of Europe, a mass of bad science has to be brought in to support political prejudice. Nor do I see any valid ground for regarding the yellow races as in any degree inferior to our noble selves. In all such cases, racial eugenics is merely an excuse for Chauvinism.

https://russell-j.com/beginner/MaM1929-TEXT.HTM

After the Second World War Russell retracted this statement, but nothing had happened to disprove it. What has happened is that after the revelations of the Holocaust most people wanted to believe that racial differences did not exist, or that they did not matter.

Bertrand Russell remained a noted critic of the nuclear arms race and of the War in Vietnam. Before the Second World War those on the democratic left could be honest about intrinsic average racial differences in intelligence, as well as criminal and sexual behavior. After the Second World War many on the left preferred to lie about this, they were afraid to tell the truth, or they actually did not believe what is obvious to anyone with extensive experience with the three major races.

 

[iso36]

It was? Sure fooled me. Seemed more like a nit wit comment from the peanut gallery.

You led with a “rear end” insult, now you’re all in and “nuts” deep with your snappy retorts.

I raised you a twink, then called with a pair of Jokers.

 

[Fuzzy1975]

You led with a “rear end” insult, now you’re all in and “nuts” deep with your snappy retorts.

I raised you a twink, then called with a pair of Jokers.

You think you did what now?

 

[iso36]

You think you did what now?

Sorry, i was trying to speak Zumese.
:-(

 

[oggbashan]

The most racist nation fighting in WW2 was not the Nazi Germans, but the Japanese.

 

[stxjimmy]

I learned that Winston Churchill was both a ww2 hero, and a eugenicist. That eugenic beliefs were far more common among AngloSax Elites pre-ww2, and that Hitler was a bit of History's patsy, so to speak.
That Ukrainian Nazis butchered many Russians and "brown" people, during ww2.
That Russian 'liberating' troupes went on to spread havoc and mass rapes in Germany&, after ww2.

--Not to idealize or absolve 'brown' people or nations tho, they, too, did things that were just as bad.​

What alternative facts did You learn, I mean facts that were left out of mainstream books.

Hitler is in no way shape or form history's patsy.

Ukrainian nazi sympathisers did not kill any brown people, there weren't any in the Ukraine Poland or Russia. Some of them did wholeheartedly join in the attempted extermination of East European Jews.

Eugenics was a contemporary theory in the early 20th century. Scientific improvement was en vogue. It still has adherents today - see John Engleman and Kradder above.

Russian troops did rape their way across Europe as they closed in on Berlin. They also had an obsession with stealing/collecting wrist watches.

Large sections of the British working classes have despised Churchill since his role in the 1926 general strike. Elements of the establishment do offer him as a symbol of empire and former national glory.

Churchill's statue by Parliament is regularly defaced, and is often boarded up before demonstrations.

Churchill's belief in white supremacy and his racism are well known, and are particularly available to read in his autobiographical works.

WW2 was not an existential threat to Britain. An accomodation could have been reached with Germany if Britain was prepared to accept German dominion over mainland Europe. Rudolf Hess crash landed in Scotland whilst travelling to instigate such talks.

Whatever else Germany is accused off, killing native Americans is unjustified. Americans need to examine their own actions there.

Britain does not hero worship Churchill, he was electorally rejected after WW2 ended. After the war ended British colonies began to demand self determination, this process began without Churchill.

None of this information is unavailable in mainstream books.

Finally please never believe anything Boris Johnson claims, he is a disgraced lifelong liar.

 

[mayfly13]

Churchill's statue by Parliament is regularly defaced, and is often boarded up before demonstrations.
Churchill's belief in white supremacy and his racism are well known, and are particularly available to read in his autobiographical works.

Interesting.. The Indian guys' article,
--while touching upon the fact that back in the day, working class Brits hated Churchill .
--kind of leaves out that many contemp. layBrits feel the same way. In fact he subtly conflated Boris/Cameron/Cambridge academics' opinions with the opinions of most contemp. layBrits. And that betrays his anti-White Brits. bias.

WW2 was not an existential threat to Britain. An accomodation could have been reached with Germany if Britain was prepared to accept German dominion over mainland Europe. Rudolf Hess crash landed in Scotland whilst travelling to instigate such talks.

wow. Didn't know that, most interesting History nudget of the day. I'm gonna read around it.

Whatever else Germany is accused off, killing native Americans is unjustified. Americans need to examine their own actions there.

but many of those who killed native Americans WERE North-West European immigrants.
We need to find out if those massacres were policies of the countries that supplied the colonisers, or separate decisions by colonists. Like the hunting down of Aboriginals, for sport, by rogue ex-convicts; I'm sure England would have never approved of that.

We also need to learn more about France, Spain and Italy. Despite being "wog-ified" and looked down on by Brits and Americans, in the early-mid 20 century, they'd treated their own colonised subjects poorly. I also heard that French Canadians are far more xenophobic than Anglo Canadians.

Ukrainian nazi sympathisers did not kill any brown people, there weren't any in the Ukraine Poland or Russia. Some of them did wholeheartedly join in the attempted extermination of East European Jews.

And, while electing a Jewish president, Ukrainians still have anti-Semitic elements within their midst.
Far more than any other East European country. Defaced statues cemeteries and such.
And they regularly clamped down on minority rights (banning teaching in their language in certain classes in school, banning minority speaking radio statins, declaring Tatars as the only minority indigenous to Ukraine.
-----It's not unique to Ukraine, many oppressed nations trying to assert their independence turned ultra-nationalistic and from oppressed to oppressor.
----- This is written in no way as a means to justify Putin's invasion and war crimes.
But I, and I suppose others are fed up with the "Russians all bad -- Ukrainians angels" bullshit mainstream narrative.
History is far more messy.Large sections of the British working classes have despised Churchill since his role in the 1926 general strike. Elements of the establishment do offer him as a symbol of empire and former national glory.

 

[mayfly13]

The most racist nation fighting in WW2 was not the Nazi Germans, but the Japanese.

yeah, I heard about the rapes of Nanjing and the experiments on Chinese and war prisoners.
But while word is that contemp. Japanese are even more racists than Hun Chinese, I haven't read concrete examples.
I only read examples of how Chinese mistreat Uygurs, Africans and such, because the economic rise of China/the academic thefts/how CCP lied about the covid outbreak for 2 months opened people's appetite to research that.
Can you tell us more?

Btw apparently it's really bad in China now.
---The real estate market is crashing, lockdowns are damaging further the economy, natality crisis.
---And xenophobia (not just against "niggers" but against "white dogs" too) is on the rise. CCP is actively pushing foreigners to leave, some foreigners -regardless of skin color- are now even declined entry to certain restaurants and night clubs).
These from a nation that only employed White Europeans (Russians included) in English teaching schools, for prestige. And that used to pay random Whites to appear at corporate events, to increase laypeople's trust in their product.