Uncollared subs/slaves

[cati]

In-put please....

My girlfriend (who is also submissive) and I were in the company of my Master. Being hungry, we decided to get something to eat and needed to choose a restaurant. I asked my Master where he would like to go, mentioning several places. He replied that it didn't matter to him. Matter settled.... I said to my friend... "OK lets go to that one, then". She turned to him and asked.."where would you like to eat Sir?" I became annoyed with her and told her that I had already discussed this with him. Afterwards, I told her that I felt it was not her place to ask my Master this question, but in this case to refer to me for direction.
Am I being bitchy about this?

Is there such a thing as a submissive "hierarchy"? Does the respect shown by Dominants for each other also pertain to submissives? Should an uncollared sub be required to show respect for a collared sub/slave sister, as she/he (could be) considered above themselves in status. Then one must also take into account the "senior" submissive, who is more experienced (collared or not) than the newbie sub.
My next question is this: Who is responsible for keeping "uncollared" subs in check at a Dungeon party or other event, should they misbehave?

 

[Betticus]

I do not think that you will find any definitive answer to this question as you can't really put a lot of rules on human behaviour.

We are all ultimately responsible for our own behaviour. This problem with your friend offending you by asking your dom a direct quesion like that is something that you and she will have to discuss. You have to let her know what your feelings are on this subject.



On another subject, why are there so many subs in Ontario? It's not fair!

 

[INSIDEYOURMIND]

I would like to know the reply made by your Master, your friend needs to understand her place or lack of place with your Master.
If I was the Master in this situation, I would have established the rules with your friend, and that would end it.
You have every right to be offended, you, and or your Master should discuss this with her, and understanding her motives, and how you expecty her to act in the future.

 

[cati]

I have learned that there are standards of behaviour...protocol within the D/s lifstyle. Granted, we adapt them (or not) to suit our own relationships-- however, certain aspects of it cannot be white-washed.

 

[graceanne]

I don't know about protocol or whatever but what she did sounds . . . well is she interested in him? I mean it's possible that she's a ditz and just spaced that you'd already asked him. But if she didn't, she was trying to . . . upsurp you, or make him think of what a good sub she is or something. It would have irritated me, too.

 

[Betticus]

I don't know about protocol or whatever but what she did sounds . . . well is she interested in him? I mean it's possible that she's a ditz and just spaced that you'd already asked him. But if she didn't, she was trying to . . . upsurp you, or make him think of what a good sub she is or something. It would have irritated me, too.

I was thinking something similar. Maybe she was trying to fulfill a need with him and that is a problem.

Cati was the one there so she'll have the best understanding of what the other girls movites/feelings were.

All I'm trying to say regardless of heirarchy or rules is that the problem is very real.

 

[graceanne]

I was thinking something similar. Maybe she was trying to fulfill a need with him and that is a problem.

Cati was the one there so she'll have the best understanding of what the other girls movites/feelings were.

All I'm trying to say regardless of heirarchy or rules is that the problem is very real.

I agree. You're so smart! (when you agree with me)

 

[catalina_francisco]

I'm with graceanne....given the description of the situation you provided, even if she did not know you had already asked him, it is not her place to do so, nor in my world is it her place to assume she has the right to call him 'Sir'. For us, I am the only one entitled to call him Master, and unless in a play situation with others who we extend the right to in that context, that is the way it remains.....anyone assuming they had earned the right would certainly be regarded as assuming far too much on their own initiative. Perhaps she envys you and your relationship, and either consciously or subconsciously, covets being part of it.

Catalina

 

[Rattlesnake1775]

Rules

I have found over time that larger groups of BDSM practioners, those that (for example) gather in online forums, clubs in cities, or however they come together. You can often find their rules, regulations, or whatever they call it (codex was popular for a while).

HOWEVER...

To me, anything sexual/personal is non-regulatable by an outside agency, as long as it occurs between consenting adults. My wife is submissive to me, but nobody would know it from watching us. Because we are both very argumentative, aggressive, and headstrong, when people find out about our "leanings" they are often very shocked.

So to answer your question, I think it is something you need to work out with those around you that share in similiar lifestyle choices. There is no "right" or "wrong" answer, and nobody out here who can answer for you.

 

[babiesmiles]

I would like to know the reply made by your Master, your friend needs to understand her place or lack of place with your Master.
If I was the Master in this situation, I would have established the rules with your friend, and that would end it.
You have every right to be offended, you, and or your Master should discuss this with her, and understanding her motives, and how you expecty her to act in the future.

Very well spoken IYM . I agree fully . These rules have to be settled before . And the Master has to do it . b

 

[Netzach]

Frankly it's none of my husband's business whether another slave is interested in me, or I in them and if I'm not I can make it clear in my own way on my own terms TO that other slave. I am not his "turf" and he does not have veto rights on others, though he can certainly tell me what he thinks of them when it's appropriate to do so in private.

I don't cater to jealousies, I've made that abundantly clear since day one, and my relationships to others are not subject to the control or desires of those who would submit to or even love me.

I would personally be very offended and there would definitley be discipline if I were spoken on behalf of in this type of matter. And the second submissive would not be the one getting the talking to.

 

[graceanne]

Frankly it's none of my husband's business whether another slave is interested in me, or I in them and if I'm not I can make it clear in my own way on my own terms TO that other slave. I am not his "turf" and he does not have veto rights on others, though he can certainly tell me what he thinks of them when it's appropriate to do so in private.

I don't cater to jealousies, I've made that abundantly clear since day one, and my relationships to others are not subject to the control or desires of those who would submit to or even love me.

I would personally be very offended and there would definitley be discipline if I were spoken on behalf of in this type of matter. And the second submissive would not be the one getting the talking to.

I guess that it depends on whether your relationship is poly or not. I can see it in your relationship, but in a case where one of the limits discussed before thing got started was monogomy, then I can see her being upset. I guess we'll have to wait for her to answer.

 

[cati]

Thank-you A/all for the wonderful feed-back, I appreciate it!

I agree with you in saying my friend was trying to undermine my position....perhaps to put herself in his good books. I know she wasn't interested in him as a future prospect for herself. She was/is relatively new to the lifestyle and I know she doesn't know the proper etiquette, even now. Perhaps she felt she and I were all on the same level...(being friends and all) ...shrugs
I didn't speak to my Master about it at the time, but chose to handle it myself.
Pleased to hear that I wasn't wrong in feeling that way...smiles.

...cati

 

[cati]

Sending Betticus a smootch by air-mail.

 

[h_i_s]

In-put please....

My girlfriend (who is also submissive) and I were in the company of my Master. Being hungry, we decided to get something to eat and needed to choose a restaurant. I asked my Master where he would like to go, mentioning several places. He replied that it didn't matter to him. Matter settled.... I said to my friend... "OK lets go to that one, then". She turned to him and asked.."where would you like to eat Sir?" I became annoyed with her and told her that I had already discussed this with him. Afterwards, I told her that I felt it was not her place to ask my Master this question, but in this case to refer to me for direction.
Am I being bitchy about this?

Is there such a thing as a submissive "hierarchy"? Does the respect shown by Dominants for each other also pertain to submissives? Should an uncollared sub be required to show respect for a collared sub/slave sister, as she/he (could be) considered above themselves in status. Then one must also take into account the "senior" submissive, who is more experienced (collared or not) than the newbie sub.
My next question is this: Who is responsible for keeping "uncollared" subs in check at a Dungeon party or other event, should they misbehave?

Whether or not she was 'out of place' isn't clear to me based on the information you've provided. Was she within hearing distance when you'd asked your master where he would like to go? Did she hear his reply when he told you that it didn't matter to him which restaurant was chosen? If the answer to both of my queries is 'yes'. Then i'd say, regardless of what type of relationship we are speaking of, there would be no need for her to have asked him again.

i'd also have wondered WHY she asked him again, knowing that he'd already said that the choice of restaurant didn't matter to him. Is this friend someone that you and your master have socialized with before, together? Is she familiar at all with the dynamics/terms/boundaries of your relationship and his expectations of you? Has she ever been collared, & served another as a submissive or slave? Is it possible that she is not certain of just how she should behave when interacting/socializing with another's master? If you expect her to behave in a certain way while with you and your master, have you explained to her the exact details of those expectations? If the answers, again, are 'yes', then i'd say she may have been out of line in asking him a question that he'd already answered for you.

As far as **my opinion**, regarding **my relationship**, and how i feel in regard to any and all pyl's and the notion of any sort of heirarchy existing, there is NONE. How would one etsablish one's level of status? And WHY would such measurements of one person's worth be needed for comparison to another's?? Sorry .... that just seems very silly to me. Generally speaking, the only person who should dictate 'expected behavior' toward rules of any sort would be left to the determination and decisions of that pyl's PYL (exceptions are made when in another's home, dungeon, or BDSM Club, etc, where the rules might then be set by the owner of that establishment/residence -- in which case, the expectation would be that if that PYL doesn't agree with the rules being set ... both could leave and choose not to return). If anyone other than my Master told me that i am of a lowered status in comparison to them, i'd be hard pressed to decide whether to laugh first and tell them to stick that silly notion up their ass, sideways, or humor myself in asking them to explain exactly HOW they are of a higher status. Can you imagine the possibilities :

submissive_one: "i served 4 masters on MSN, 1 on AOL, and 2 on Yahoo ... therefore *i* am of a higher status".

submissive_two: "Well, i served 4 Dommes on the phone, and 4 via email, and since you'd only served in the cybersexual extent, yet i served also by nonsexual tasks *i* am of a higher status."

slave_one: "You both used safe words and i had none ... AND served sexually on web cam ... *i* am of the higher status".

slave_two: "i have never 'cybered' in my life. i never did the phone sex thing. Never did the email cyber thing either & i don't think i would get off on spanking myself on cam. When my Master spanks my ass, i want to see that animalistic look in His eyes, feel His fist tugging at a handful of my hair as His hot breath whispers in my ear while He leans in and tells me to count each spank out loud for Him. Status?!? Who needs status. You can all argue it between the three of you. i have to log off. my Master is waiting for me to cook His dinner." Cyas.

Status between pyls is a silly notion, *imo*.

i don't see what business a heirarchy or silly notion of status has existing between friends. Any loyal friend of mine would have been informed at some point as to what the expectations would be in respect to my feelings in a case like the one you have described here. And if i felt the friend had stepped 'out of place', i'd have explained as clearly and gently as possible exactly what her/his mistake was so that it would not continue to be an issue between us at any time in the future.

i don't know if you are being bitchy. Obviously your friend's actions have upset you for some reason.The details are not clear to me. Perhaps you are feeling sensative or are reacting due to an emotional reason, or just expecting your friend to know something that had not been spelled out in plain black and white. But, as i said .... there are not enough details offered for me to arrive at an informed opinion.

Just as communication is detrimental to the quality of the relationship of a pyl and a PYL ... the same can be said of communication between friends. The day my Master collared me there were no crystal balls exchanged between the two of us. No one can be expected to be a mind reader. Communication is always key.

 

[h_i_s]

I don't know about protocol or whatever but what she did sounds . . . well is she interested in him? I mean it's possible that she's a ditz and just spaced that you'd already asked him. But if she didn't, she was trying to . . . upsurp you, or make him think of what a good sub she is or something. It would have irritated me, too.

i don't know all the details ... and cati's post left me with a few questions ... but, i had this same thought. i think cati's friend was playing it up a bit, trying to impress cati's master. Kind of like the friend was trying to gain points by being the 'better' submissive in waving their right to choose and insisting that cati's master be the one to choose. Brownie points of sorts ... possibly. If so, if that friend were mine, she'd have a lot to learn in how i can only expect that my Master would have reacted to her follies ..... i'd guess that in that situation, the friend would have annoyed my Master rather than impress Him by asking Him a question that He'd already given and made the decision for.

Perhaps the friend does not understand. cati's Master DID make the decision ..... His decision was that He expected cati and her friend to choose a restaurant.

 

[h_i_s]

I'm with graceanne....given the description of the situation you provided, even if she did not know you had already asked him, it is not her place to do so, nor in my world is it her place to assume she has the right to call him 'Sir'. For us, I am the only one entitled to call him Master, and unless in a play situation with others who we extend the right to in that context, that is the way it remains.....anyone assuming they had earned the right would certainly be regarded as assuming far too much on their own initiative. Perhaps she envys you and your relationship, and either consciously or subconsciously, covets being part of it.

Catalina

i cringed a bit at cati's friend referring to him as 'Sir' ... only because many times when reading a post that asks for an opinion, i put myself in the person's place who is asking for that opinion. my friends and family refer to my Master by His given name. Any other submissives that we have socialized with also call Him by His given name. It would rub me the wrong way for another to call Him 'Sir', *i* don't even call Him Sir myself .... and if anyone else were to call Him "Master" ... i'd be a whole lot more than just 'rubbed the wrong way' and they'd be told politely the first time, and were a second reminder needed, i'd not feel a need to be quite so polite in expressing it the second time around.

 

[cati]

whoa ! ducking my head here....
I said (could be) didn't mean was of a "higher status" and I certainly wasn't referring to myself. It is something I have been curious about for a very long time. My question was this... would another sub who has been in the lifestyle longer, is more knowledgeable and experienced (hence a senior) deserve more consideration and respect by newbies. IMHO she is worthy of greater respect only in that sense.
I think you are missing the point entirely.
Yes I agree that friends and family would call him/her by their first names, it's only natural, being in a "vanilla" environment. However, in "our lifestyle circle" it would be rude to call a Dominant by his/her first name, as it would appear too familiar. Sir is more neutral and never call him/her Master/Mistress as they are not "yours".
Different strokes for different folks as they say.....

 

[Haku_Z]

In-put please....

My girlfriend (who is also submissive) and I were in the company of my Master. Being hungry, we decided to get something to eat and needed to choose a restaurant. I asked my Master where he would like to go, mentioning several places. He replied that it didn't matter to him. Matter settled.... I said to my friend... "OK lets go to that one, then". She turned to him and asked.."where would you like to eat Sir?" I became annoyed with her and told her that I had already discussed this with him. Afterwards, I told her that I felt it was not her place to ask my Master this question, but in this case to refer to me for direction.
Am I being bitchy about this?

Is there such a thing as a submissive "hierarchy"? Does the respect shown by Dominants for each other also pertain to submissives? Should an uncollared sub be required to show respect for a collared sub/slave sister, as she/he (could be) considered above themselves in status. Then one must also take into account the "senior" submissive, who is more experienced (collared or not) than the newbie sub.
My next question is this: Who is responsible for keeping "uncollared" subs in check at a Dungeon party or other event, should they misbehave?

I, personally, in respect to manners and whatnot, operate the same way I do out of the lifestyle. I'm polite, but not because I should be, it's just because I am. Now when meeting another Dom, I don't treat them differently than I do any other person I first meet. My sub is also the same way - why should she or any of our sub friends show respect to someone they just met? Titles, to me, are earned, not assumed.

As for a hierarchy, I don't really believe in such a thing. Granted if a dom has two subs, the newer sub should listen to the older one - naturally, she would know more about the dom than the other. But, it's not a rule.

 

[catalina_francisco]

i cringed a bit at cati's friend referring to him as 'Sir' ... only because many times when reading a post that asks for an opinion, i put myself in the person's place who is asking for that opinion. my friends and family refer to my Master by His given name. Any other submissives that we have socialized with also call Him by His given name. It would rub me the wrong way for another to call Him 'Sir', *i* don't even call Him Sir myself .... and if anyone else were to call Him "Master" ... i'd be a whole lot more than just 'rubbed the wrong way' and they'd be told politely the first time, and were a second reminder needed, i'd not feel a need to be quite so polite in expressing it the second time around.

Have to agree sinnOcent. I have always been told by the Dominant's I met that it is an honour to be allowed to call them Sir, Mistress, Master, etc., and that to do so without invitation is not usually acceptable. Similarly, most of those Dominants were not in the habit of having others call them that as it was meant to symbolise a particular relationship that not everyone was part of, nor that should come lightly and without earning the right. I don't see it as a matter of seniority of subs etc., either as often if in a social setting, you do not usually go about asking or being told how long each individual has been in the role they are in so how is iot even possible to look at that as a measure. Time does not make anyone more or less a sub or Dominant, reality, commitment, and common sense might though. As F often reminds me, there are some people who have been subbing/Domming for 10+ years, but do not necessarily have the experience or commitment another might have after a year....it is another of those subjective things I guess.

Catalina

 

[CutieMouse]

I was curious when I read the OP- was the friend present when Master said for the girls to choose the resturaunt? Or was she in another room/out of earshot/etc? I'd also need to know if she were the sort for whom "Sir" drips through every blessed conversation.

If she were present when He made the decision to not decide on dinner (to me) it has nothing to do with BDSM. Such behaviour is rude. It reduces (intentionally or not) the person told to make dinner plans by acting as if said person were a ghost. It has nothing to do with which submissive is what and everything to do with respect and courtesy.

Now if the friend in question had no idea a decision to not decide about dinner had been made and she knew of the D/S makeup of the room, she could have been doing what I'll define as the "Book of O School of Servitude". If it acts like a Dom, looks like a Dom, walks like a Dom, or actually *is* a Dom- defer to said Dom at every opportunity for fear of creating some BDSM faux pas and offending those around her.

Third possibility (she says realizing all of these opinions are flying out of her posterior) is that she's just a "Sir" sort of girl and things are being way over analyzed. <shrug> They gotta exist somewhere. God[dess] knows I'm not one of them, but I've heard they are quite popular.

 

[h_i_s]

whoa ! ducking my head here....
I said (could be) didn't mean was of a "higher status" and I certainly wasn't referring to myself. It is something I have been curious about for a very long time. My question was this... would another sub who has been in the lifestyle longer, is more knowledgeable and experienced (hence a senior) deserve more consideration and respect by newbies. IMHO she is worthy of greater respect only in that sense.
I think you are missing the point entirely.
Yes I agree that friends and family would call him/her by their first names, it's only natural, being in a "vanilla" environment. However, in "our lifestyle circle" it would be rude to call a Dominant by his/her first name, as it would appear too familiar. Sir is more neutral and never call him/her Master/Mistress as they are not "yours".
Different strokes for different folks as they say.....

In regard to any other submissive, whether in the lifestyle longer than i, or less time than i, having more or less experience than i, ... i view neither as deserving more or less respect than the other.

There is just as much which can be learned from those with no experience, as from those with more. We all 'walk in different shoes'. Many times, there is a wealth of knowledge to be learned from the experiences of others, and the paths they have walked, as rarely do two people walk the exact same paths. A person's worth can not acurately be measured based on their time put in when we are speaking of 'experience', but might be more adequately put into perspective based on the diversity and/or quality of all that they have encountered that another might not have.

It's my view when i deal with other submissives, just as when i interact with those outside of the lifestyle, whether at work, or play ... we all have to start someplace, and that place is at the bottom, from the beginning with no experience. Regardless, there is always someone with more, just as there is always someone with less experience in every aspect of life. Everyone has different areas of expertise as well, and that can cause difficulty in determining one person's level of stature or experience in comparison to another.

i feel the world would be a much more pleasant place if respect were given equally regardless of 'stature'. Some may disagree, but for myself, i expect no more, and no less respect to be passed my way, than that of which i have offered.

As far as titles go, when my Master & i are among others who are in the 'lifestyle' how we are addressed, and how we address others is no different than when we are among those not in the 'lifestyle'. When we meet others for the first time, we'd ask them how 'they wish' to be addressed, or we'd address them by whatever name they have offered upon introducing themselves. When my Master introduces Himself and i, He offers our given first names. We prefer to keep things casual.

We all live by different rules and expectations which may conflict. 'Differences' are not always something that should be viewed as 'wrong'.

oops ... (my time is up ... gotta go.)

 

[serijules]

I personally will never call someone that is not in an official relationship with me Sir or Ma'am. Some feel it is polite to do so to ANY Dom/me out of respect, I disagree. Respect is earned in my book, not given, on both levels. I need to earn their respect just as much as they need to earn mine before I feel calling someone Sir or Ma'am is proper. That doesn't mean I am not polite to others I meet regardless of their role, but I simply won't hand out blanket respect until our relationship is one in which that is appropriate. The only people I have ever called Sir or Ma'am, I have been collared to ordered to by the person I was collared to (like when my first Dom borrowed me to another Dom and told me I was to show him the same respect I would him). It drives me crazy when subs just start calling any and everyone Sir or Ma'am. Some of D's play partners do this to her (not at her orders) and it peeves me, but I don't say anything...is not my place to do so.

As for the other issue...I lost a close friend over something like this. When D and I first got together "officially" (we had been play partners for many years prior), another friend/playpartner of ours was jealous, and felt the need to push her way into things and "prove" that she was just as important to me and had just as many rights as I did. I find it *extremely* rude when another sub doesn't respect and recognize a Dom/me's collared subs or slaves as a priority. D does not give out a collar lightly, and for someone else to act like they deserve the same time, attention, focus, etc as C and I is hugely disrespectful.

This friend would get upset when D spent time with C and I and she didn't get any time with her at parties, and she'd make plans to visit D and throw it in my face (it was unnecessary for her to mention her plans to visit D when she was well aware I was still crashing from my last visit, especially since her tone was one of posessiveness). I wasn't jealous...I was really friggin pissed off because she was basically saying that D's ownership meant so little that she had no reason to respect it and had the right to place herself on the same level in D's life as we were. That was not a decision she had any right to make...that is for D and D alone to make. When I confronted her with the issue, she blew up, and we have not been friends since. In hindsight, I realize now it wasn't MY place to fix the issue either, or attempt to, but, well, lessons learned.

So I do feel there is a level of protocol that needs to be respected by uncollared subs in regards to the relationships of others, but only in regards to that relationship. When I go to a party, I am not any "better" than anyone else there because I am collared, I don't deserve more respect or more attention or whatever because I am collared. But my RELATIONSHIP does deserve respect and attention. If we are all together and D requires something, that is my job to serve her unless she requests someone else to do something for her. When another sub asks her if she would like a drink or if they can fetch her something, I feel that it greatly disrespects my place because it's fairly obvious I belong to her and that it is my job as her slave to serve her. For someone else to offer or attempt to when I am around and she has not asked it of them (that doesn't belong to her), I feel is extremely uncalled for and unacceptable. It undermines my place and is disrespectful to both D and I.

 

[FLButtSlut]

Like most others have said, the previous social contacts between your friend and your master may play a part here. If no one had ever indicated to her what she should call your master, she may have simply been playing it safe.

Personally, I don't call anyone "sir" or "master" or the like unless they are MINE. If it were me, I would be addressing your master by his name as he is not MY sir or master. My submissiveness has nothing to do with it.

It is redundent to re-ask the same question like that, but as Grace said, perhaps it was simply being "ditzy". I have, on occasion, fallen prey to that, although I usually immediately go..."wait, did you just ask that? sorry, I drifted away for a minute there, but I'm back now."

What I am the most curious about from your post though is something different. You stated quite clearly that she is "just a friend" to you, although she is also submissive. I understand you deferring to your master regarding where to eat as that is obviously part of your relationship dynamic.

What I DON'T understand is why when your master said it didn't matter where you ate, YOU unilaterally chose the restaurant without asking your friend HER thoughts? Once your master stated that he didn't care where you ate, why was it not the least bit rude on your part to not discuss it with your friend?

 

[Private_Label]

Politeness.

In-put please....

My girlfriend (who is also submissive) and I were in the company of my Master. Being hungry, we decided to get something to eat and needed to choose a restaurant. I asked my Master where he would like to go, mentioning several places. He replied that it didn't matter to him. Matter settled.... I said to my friend... "OK lets go to that one, then". She turned to him and asked.."where would you like to eat Sir?" I became annoyed with her and told her that I had already discussed this with him. Afterwards, I told her that I felt it was not her place to ask my Master this question, but in this case to refer to me for direction.
Am I being bitchy about this?

I have no experience about "play party/lifestyle" heirarchy to base an answer on so I will just answer from my plain old vanilla upbringing.

If she was present when you asked the question and heard his answer, then you are not being bitchy - she was ignoring your presence and ignoring what yor D had said about not caring, she should have either accepted yours or offered her own suggestion. Asking him a second time was just plain rude in a non D/s way.

As for using Sir or Ma'am... my mother (and grandmother) raised me to be poilite. I say "yes sir, no sir, please ma'am, thank you ma'am" to everyone, because that was the way I was brought up. To be polite. And I find in most situations if I have a problem and approach the person who is able to help me (store clerk, waitress, co-worker) asking politely may get you a sigh for the interruption but it does get you service in better humour than if you are rude and nasty. I try to not get rude or nasty until I have used all my polite options. Then you better get out of my way because then I am on a mission.

I am saddened when I watch younger people who apparently never learned how to be polite and that it is not something taught in schools, Not as part of any "curriculum" but just to make them better men and women.

Politeness is the grease in the bearings of society. We are in desperate need of a complete oil and lube job.