UK Villains (is it the accent?)

[Guest]

So why are Brit (as opposed to Irish, Scot, and Welsh) actors so good at portraying evil characters?

Given my own filmbuffdom and a quick search I thought this might prove an interesting topic (away from MG's Scottish clan turned into Alan Rickman thread). We've had many posts on UK/US differences (spelling, attitudes, assumptions right and wrong) and film (a language that can be used to create art). So it seems a fitting enough discussion for the AH, IMO.

My first thought was that UK* actors are generally better than Yanks and we need villains to at least sound intelligent. (*We've been through the Brit vs. Englishman vs. UK etc. thread so I've switched Eff's term.)

Here are some interesting comments from a BBCi site Why Villains in Movies Have English Accents (I've edited only for brevity; could not find author name.)

The English Accent in America

Drawing on the legends of such gentlemanly criminals as Edward Pierce, and combining them with the American perception of the English accent, the Sophisticated Evil Genius was born, to populate villainous roles in film on countless occasions.

The accent most commonly employed in this manner is Received Pronunciation (or RP). This and other English accents, and sometimes even Scottish or Welsh accents as well, in America have a ring of sophistication and intelligence. This association possibly stems from frontier times, when among the rough and tumble talk of the wild west the less altered speak of genteel folks from the east stuck out conspicuously. It may have to do with the general impression of Great Britain as the 'Old World' a place of tradition and schooling and nobility. Also, the concept of the British as the 'old masters' and British influence as an unjust yoke to be thrown off is deeply engrained in the US cultural history. In any case, though most Americans don't know what RP is, it sounds smart to them.

This phenomenon has led to such creative use of accents as can be found in Robin Hood movies. Beginning with Errol Flynn's classic portrayal, and leading up to Kevin Costner's laughable (and anachronistic) accent in "Prince of Thieves", Hollywood Robin Hoods have had American accents. The Sheriffs of Nottingham have, naturally, spoken with English accents.

Star Wars: a Case Study

The original Star Wars trilogy is an interesting case. On the side of evil we have the Empire, whose officers sound quite British. The baddest of the bad, however, is Darth Vader, voiced by James Earl Jones, an American. It is interesting to note, though, that casting Jones was a decision that came late in the film and he merely overdubbed the lines of the British actor who played Darth Vader. Also, Vader was redeemed at the end of The Return of the Jedi, and imperial officers were not. On the side of good, most of the characters had American accents, including the über-American, space cowboy Han Solo. But there is an exception here, as well. Sir Alec Guinness gives the role of Obi-wan Kenobi his most deliciously wise English voice. He can be seen as the remnant of the old order, a mentor guiding our young brash hero, and still be quite in line with the prevailing stereotypes.
- - - - - - -

While some people who speak with British accents in real life find this phenomenon offensive and yet another example of American arrogance, others see it differently. To quote one researcher:

As an Englishman born and bred I have to say that I'm quite fond of the American tendency to cast my countrymen as the villain of the piece. He might always fall foul of the hero and/or his own devious plots at the end of the film, but he always gets the best lines and brings an impeccable style to the dance that you just can't get with a US accent. Alan Rickman, Charles Dance, Jeremy Irons and many others always steal the scene away from the likes of Kevin Costner, Bruce Willis and Tom Hanks every time.

Some Movies Featuring English-sounding Baddies


Alan Rickman in Die Hard
Alan Rickman in Robin Hood: Prince of Thieves
Anthony Hopkins in The Silence of the Lambs
Basil Rathbone in Anna Karenina
Basil Rathbone in David Copperfield
Ben Kingsley in Sneakers
Betty Lou Gerson in 101 Dalmations
Boris Karloff in Frankenstein
Charles Dance in Last Action Hero
Christopher Lee in Star Wars: Attack of the Clones
Christopher Lee in The Lord of the Rings: The Fellowship of the Ring
Claude Rains in Notorious
David Bowie in Labyrinth
David Warner in Titanic
Dougray Scott in Mission: Impossible 2
George Sanders in Rebecca
George Sanders in Disney's The Jungle Book
James Mason in North by Northwest
James Mason in The Verdict
Jeremy Irons in Die Hard With a Vengeance
Jeremy Irons in The Lion King
John Lithgow in Cliffhanger
John Lithgow in Shrek
Joss Ackland in Lethal Weapon 2
Pam Ferris in Matilda
Patrick Stewart in Conspiracy Theory
Peter Cushing in Star Wars
Pierce Brosnan in Mrs. Doubtfire
Ray Milland in Dial M for Murder
Richard Attenborough in Jurassic Park
Robert Carlyle in The World is Not Enough
Sean Connery in The Avengers
Sir Ian McKellen in X-Men
Stephen Berkhoff in Beverly Hills Cop
Tim Roth in Pulp Fiction
Timothy Dalton in The Shadow
Tom Wilkinson in Rush Hour

Lastly, there is a link on this site on How to Fake an English Accent in a Chatroom

 

[Guest]

p.s.

Here are some UK posts to the above article; no edits.

Perhaps the British habit of becoming an actor through a lengthy process of theatre and apprenticeship has something to do with it. I don't think an American 'Star' realises that the really meaty roles with lots of complexity are usually the bad guys. They seem to be more concerned with billing and box office.

suppose another reason to cast British actors as the 'bad guys' is that they can actually act! Being a convincingly evil baddy requires subtlety not something American stars are good at

...and don't forget the overwhelming sex appeal that British men have for American girls, who are, for the most part stuck in an island nation with a bunch of artless American boys. So, another possible reason for the insertion of a briton is that it may be the only way to draw a female into an action movie with her man. Otherwise, it's Sleepless in Seattle every time

It's possibly not especially important to mention this in the wider scheme of things, but it appears that usually when an English accent is used in a film, it is more likely to be of the home counties dialect. Perhaps this came about from the widespread use of it in films made regarding the second world war? I can't remember too many films with use of other English regional dialects, with "The Full Monty" being one of the few that springs to mind for its South Yorkshire variations.

Query : what is the "British accent". British accents vary as widely, if not more so, than American. I have personally had a conversation with a guy who only spoke English, and only caught one word in four through his geordie accent. His NAME was Geordie, in fact, and he could poke his finger through an apple, which was quite impressive in the canteen. By British, you do mean, I think, what most people would call "posh", or at the very least RP (which you did mention without explaining...). Can anyone name an American film with a Scouse/Cornish/Welsh/Geordie/Mancunian villain?

 

[ffreak]

After being resoundingly trounced about Rickman not being a Brit, I changed my term to actors from the British Isles. I think most Americans do not recognize the lilt of the other countries as well as the RP and just as people from diverse regions learn the Midwestern accent to get on TV, so the actors from the Isles seem to learn how to do the RP accent for our poor ears over here.

I do agree we want our villains to prove their worthiness by being more of the evil genius ilk.

I'd like to add two to your list:
Anthony Hopkins in Instinct or just about anything for that matter.
Edward Woodward in The Equalizer yeah, it's TV and yeah, he was the 'hero', but a hero with a dark past who was willing to use shady tactics to get what he wanted. And we accepted that trait as natural to the character.

I think the stereotypical villain we measure all other villains against is Moriarty. Perhaps the disdainful look upon those the villain considers as less than himself/herself is reinforced by the upper-crust sound of their accent.

So here is a question: Why are we only listing English accented men as villains?

 

[Guest]

BtVS and Britishness - Fake and Real

So here is a question: Why are we only listing English accented men as villains?

It was YOUR original query, Eff. List who or what you like, I'm not compulsive about my threads.

Addition: an American actor, James Marsters, plays "The Big Bad", an English vampire nicknamed Spike, on Buffy the Vampire Slayer, with a very good British accent. He's a very buff and sexy villain natch. His longtime (200 or so years) lover villainess (200 or so years), Drusilla, is also an American actress performing with a British accent (more Cockneyish though).

The "good" vampire, named Angel, was Irish accented (in flashbacks) but ends up with a totally American accent, saying something about the Yank-good-guy syndrome. Angel and the other good guy (Xander) ended up gaining considerable weight over the years of the series, but Spike ended as buff as ever.

The good guy Brit in the series is Giles the librarian and Watcher, played by a Brit very stereotypically (tweeds, fey, stuffy, aghast at his American charge).

 

[ffreak]

Ah, yes the subservient role. So is there a connection between the American take on villains and butlers (and other menial roles).

Should I shut-up for awhile so other people can jump in here? (not that I don't love all this time we're spending with you all to myself)

 

[Jenny _S]

Maybe it has more to do with how British Actors see their craft. I once heard Richard Attenborough interviewed. What he said was interesting in this context. Paraphrasing he said the Americans have bit actors, character actors and stars. One does not move from one category to another. In England I may play a bit part this month and star then next. It's all the same to the British actor.

He went on to say, as you state above, that while American film actors are schooled in film and television, the British learn their craft on the live stage.

Also looking at your list, just off the top of my head I see among your "English Sounding" actors I see:

2 Scots
2 Welshmen
1 Russian
and
1 Born in New Jersey, USA

I'll leave you to figure out who is who.

(Hint - Try www.imdb.com)

 

[Guest]

Should I shut-up for awhile so other people can jump in here? (not that I don't love all this time we're spending with you all to myself)

Shut up? No, say what you like (then I and others can re-trounce you.)

Regarding "all to myself", what makes you think I'm alone?

Perdita

 

[Guest]

I'll leave you to figure out who is who.

Hey, Jenny, I'm your pal. Just tell me who the Russian is.

BTW, I was recently told Patrick Stewart and James Mason were Yorkshire.

Perdita

 

[Jenny _S]

The Russian

Hey, Jenny, I'm your pal. Just tell me who the Russian is.

BTW, I was recently told Patrick Stewart and James Mason were Yorkshire.

Perdita

That, I believe is correct. Both were born in Yorkshire.

The Russian: George Sanders was born in St. Petersburg, Russia.

 

[Guest]

Re: The Russian

The Russian: George Sanders was born in St. Petersburg, Russia.

Do cvedanya. I like that; I love Sanders. He was always such a gentlemanly villain (the best kind), esp. in Rebecca, All About Eve and The Picture of Dorian Gray.

He killed himself at 66 and left this note: "Dear World: I am leaving because I am bored. I am leaving you with your worries in this sweet cesspool."

The second sentence is disputed, some wording makes it a bit more "positive".

At any rate, his was another virile lovely voice.

 

[Jenny _S]

Re: Re: The Russian

Do cvedanya.

Good Bye? Do scorovia vedanya, See you soon?

I once had a cute little blond secretary from Sweden. From her accent on would have thought she was born and raised in London.

The accent thing is an interesting, thoughful thread, perdita. Thank you.

 

[ffreak]

Welcome aboard, Jenny. Is this what you were trying to tell me about Perdita, a threesome?

Jenny, your point taken, that's precisely why I changed my definition to include all the B Isles.

I noticed last year, while in Denmark, that everyone I met spoke perfect English - with a British accent (to my untrained ears).

Of course considering the Danegeld in England, do Danes as bad guys rate the same as the guys from the Isles?


Add to the list Gabriel Byrne (irish) plays a mean bad guy or a great devil, depending on your preference.

 

[Guest]

Do cvedanya

Jennushka: Ha! I meant to say spassiba (thank you, in Russian). Perhaps thnking of Sanders' leavetaking caused me to say the common Russian 'goodbye', which is really translated "until our next meeting".

Glad you caught it.

Dobrii vyecher (good night),

Perditskaya

 

[Jenny _S]

Welcome aboard, Jenny. Is this what you were trying to tell me about Perdita, a threesome?

Jenny, your point taken, that's precisely why I changed my definition to include all the B Isles.

I noticed last year, while in Denmark, that everyone I met spoke perfect English - with a British accent (to my untrained ears).

Of course considering the Danegeld in England, do Danes as bad guys rate the same as the guys from the Isles?


Add to the list Gabriel Byrne (irish) plays a mean bad guy or a great devil, depending on your preference.

My secretary, Christina, explained to me that the only English instructors they had in Sweden were British Nationals. Naturally the English she learned carried the British accent.

American films have very few groups of "bad guys". A short list would be:

1) Ghetto Blacks
2) WWI & II Germans
3) WWII Japanese
4) Italian Imigrents
5) Native Americans
6) Hispanic Drug Dealers
7) Europeans

There are more but I think those are the common ones. All these groups in film speak english, some with accents, some without.

For some reason the General European group is represented by the British Accent. Maybe because the UK has the only language in common. Americans as a group don't handle French, Russian or German accents well and we seem to have a limited attention span.

 

[ffreak]

Ah, but have you noticed that the other groups in your bad guy gangs are not portrayed as evil geniuses with aristocratic claims? (well maybe some of the Germans and a few notable American exceptions - Orson Welles comes to mind - though he still tried to sound aristocratic).

 

[Guest]

non-British villains

Good points, Jenn. I think one of the worst Russian accents ever was Harrison Ford's recently (can't recall the film). Russian is one of the most difficult to do because of the palatilization of 'soft sounds' (the symbol for a soft sound is part of the Cyrillic alphabet).

Another great villain was Daniel Day-Lewis' in The Gangs of New York. There we have an Englishman using an embryonic New York accent. Bill the Butcher - a Shakespearean sized villain.

Perdita

 

[The_Fool]

Personally, I think it's a blatant attempt to show that intelligence, knowledge, class and charisma can be overcome by old-fashioned Yankee ingenuity mixed with cowboy mentality indepedence and a little rah-rah "Go Team" cheerleading.

Consider Rickman as Hans Gruber in in "Die Hard." Sophisticated, determined, ruthless, greedy, intelligent. Had an incredible team mixed with a complex, multi-strategy plan. And who foiled him?

John McClane (Bruce Willis) walked onto the scene basically unprepared, barely armed, by himself and pulled it out.

Perhaps I am focusing on a single instance, but I think this is a blatant play at making the "unwashed masses" feel good about themselves, even though they lack the refinements of their "betters."

Oh yeah, I liked the movie....

 

[The_Fool]

Re: non-British villains

Good points, Jenn. I think one of the worst Russian accents ever was Harrison Ford's recently (can't recall the film). Russian is one of the most difficult to do because of the palatilization of 'soft sounds' (the symbol for a soft sound is part of the Cyrillic alphabet).

Another great villain was Daniel Day-Lewis' in The Gangs of New York. There we have an Englishman using an embryonic New York accent. Bill the Butcher - a Shakespearean sized villain.

Perdita

K-19?

 

[Guest]

Ah, but have you noticed that the other groups in your bad guy gangs are not portrayed as evil geniuses with aristocratic claims?

I think that was her point, Eff. This is a fundamentally racist nation still (let's keep that for another thread though).

Perdita la Mexicana

 

[Guest]

Hey Fool, you're no fool here. Gruber was actually German, but of course not accented so.

yer pal, Perd

 

[destinie21]

This is going to sound stupid
but that's never stopped me before.
The english accent as (relayed in films) seems cold and proper
even sinister so it's used.

Much like the ny accent is used for the the thugs, the brash and uncultured and every now and then the underdog who in the end rises to the top...

Also the "accent" from California and florida is abused as much as the southern accent.

But I say thank Gawd my parents paid for boarding school the world doesn't need another ballsy black chick w/ a Ny accent.

 

[The_Fool]

C'mon guys....Robin Williams makes a great bad guy even without an accent.

 

[Guest]

... the world doesn't need another ballsy black chick w/ a Ny accent.

I wouldn't mind being a ballsy NY black chick once in a while, hon; especially if she looked like you.

Seque: I love Orson Welles and Touch of Evil is great but I cannot get past Charlson Heston and Marlene Dietrich as Mexicans. (Nor Marlon Brando as Emiliano Zapata!)

Perdita

 

[Jenny _S]

All accents not withstanding, the absolute worst accent was John Wayne playing Genghis Khan.

"Round 'um up and attack the Huns, Pilgrim."

 

[Guest]

"Round 'um up and attack the Huns, Pilgrim."

Omigod, are you kidding? No, probably not. Sheesh!

Perdita