UK Schooling

[Roxanne Appleby]

Tanstaafl.

In a society where the bottom line is the most important thing, and we're not will to pay for other people's children to have a decent education (meaning higher taxes), what else can we expect but a damaged education system?

WTF? In the state I live in we pay $8,200 per child per annum - just for operations. Thousands of dollars more are spent for facilities.

More than 40 percent of it never gets into the classroom. In addition, school employees receive a health insurance package that costs $2,000 more per year than state government employees, who already have a Cadillac plan. The pensions the union has extracted will absorb 1/3 of the entire public school payroll within 10 years.

For this "investment," barely 70 percent of the children meet state reading and math standards that are pathetically low - gamed down by the same union/bureaucracy conspiracy. (In the state's largest city, the numbers are $11,000 per student and only 40 percent meeting pathetic reading and math standards.)

My state is typical. Nothing I've seen suggests it's any better in Britain.

Certainly there are some schools that are exceptions. Absolutely there are thousands of teachers who are heros, doing their best in an establishment that does its best to make it impossible for them to make a difference. There are also thousands of very bad teachers who cannot be gotten rid of, protected by the union and a corrupt 'tenure' system. The bad ones get paid exactly the same as the heros.

I doubt this is any different in Britain.

When the to-the-death opposition of the government school establishment ("the blob") is finally defeated and parents can send their children to any school they choose under a voucher system, then there will be real reform. Not until then.

 

[gauchecritic]

My state is typical. Nothing I've seen suggests it's any better in Britain.

thousands of very bad teachers who cannot be gotten rid of, protected by the union and a corrupt 'tenure' system. The bad ones get paid exactly the same as the heros.

I doubt this is any different in Britain.

When the to-the-death opposition of the government school establishment ("the blob") is finally defeated and parents can send their children to any school they choose under a voucher system, then there will be real reform. Not until then.

MMMmmm. no. To everything. Unless they've changed the system drastically since I was a governor there is no such thing as tenure in UK schools

The voucher system of schooling does nothing to alleviate class sizes or professionalism, merely extends and indemnifies the class system and leaves money to talk as loudly as ever.

 

[Roxanne Appleby]

MMMmmm. no. To everything. Unless they've changed the system drastically since I was a governor there is no such thing as tenure in UK schools

The voucher system of schooling does nothing to alleviate class sizes or professionalism, merely extends and indemnifies the class system and leaves money to talk as loudly as ever.

So, are teachers dismissed for poor performance in British schools? I don't mean getting caught with their hands in the pants of the 11 year olds (or 16 year olds), but for just being lousy teachers?

I would be very surprised if the civil service and union protections don't yield the same outcome in that metric - meaning they all have jobs for life, however bad they may be.

Your statements on vouchers are filled with non sequitors and contradictions. The beauty of vouchers is that to a large extent they level the playing field between the rich and the poor. In addition, they would cause "100 flowers to bloom" in the form of thousands of innovative new schools. Some of these would be crap, and they would fail. Others would be outstanding, and would be copied.

Compare this not to some utopian fantasy, but to the current system, in which generation after generation of inner city children in their tens of millions are destroyed by government schools where no learning takes place, hope dies, and nothing ever changes.

This has nothing to do with the amount of money spent on it. Those inner city schools are among the most richly endowed, receiving more than $10,000 per student annually in almost all cases. In many cases, much more. Those who operate these schools are richly rewarded for their dedication to the corrupt system.

It is perhaps the the most cynical and immoral component of the welfare state. It is shameful, and unforgiveable.

This is not a liberal vs. conservative debate. It's a corrupt establishment vs. reformer debate. Inner city black parents are among the most passionate pleaders for parental choice in education. I use the word "plead" deliberately.

 

[colddiesel]

Belfast

V,
My first 3 years of school was in Belfast. Then I was moved to the U.S. I was totally bored. I was far beyond these kids in everything except Thanksgiving. It was hard to even bother going to school.

This lasted through most of the 5th grade.

What I see now is even worse. Dumb-asses graduating from High School who can't read (?) That's a bloody crime.

For 35 years Northern Ireland including Belfast had the best State education system all round in the UK.

This was largely because with the onset of the Troubles in 1969 the provinces government was either non existent or moribund.Thus there were no changes in the education system. Meanwhile in the rest of the UK the government has interfered with and fiddled around with education in every aspect causing standards to go through the floor.

It's ironic that the Troubles in Belfast had the unlooked for effect of preserving a good state education but Jenny can now rest assured that the current Minister for Northern Ireland the odious Peter Hain and the new Education Minister in Northern Ireland (the Equally odious Martin McGuiness) are now working flat out to destroy the old Belfast educational standards.

 

[colddiesel]

Ofsted

So, are teachers dismissed for poor performance in British schools?

I dare anyone to try to explain Ofsted to Roxanne???

 

[scheherazade_79]

I dare anyone to try to explain Ofsted to Roxanne???

I'll have a go :

A bunch of out of touch arseholes, who visit schools every 3-4 years or so. Most of them haven't set foot in a classroom in at least a decades, and they take their mission briefings from people who haven't set foot in a classroom for even longer.

They are the examiners of government education policy - not whether it works, but whether the teachers are carrying it out properly.

Ofsted inspectors thrive on paperwork, and minute-by-minute lesson planning. What they look for one year will be totally different from what they look for the next year, as the government keeps changing its mind about what to do with education.

If a school is really bad - and trust me, it has to be diabolical for this to happen - it's put under 'special measures'. This means that the headteacher is given a desk job at the local County Hall, and a new superhead is brought in to whip things back into shape. To avoid negative connotiations the school is renamed - usually something with 'Academy' as part of its title.

After a year or two, the new superhead admits defeat and moves on.

 

[scheherazade_79]

More fables from the British education system

* Years ago children were taught proper cookery. Then they changed it because the government decided that no one cooked anymore, so what was the point? Instead children were taught how to analyse the nutritional information on food labels.
* In recent times the government has discovered that people are getting far too fat... because they don't cook anymore. So they've reintroduced proper cookery to the school syllabus.

* Years ago children were taught how to do useful practical things, like erect shelves and sew hems. Then the industry sector contacted the government and said: "We'll donate more money to you if you make all children learn how to design and evaluate absolutely useless products."
And so design technology was born...

* In Wales, the powers that be decided that all pupils should be taught Welsh in schools. The result was that because they were forced to learn one language, children lost interest in learning other more useful ones, such as French and German. Slowly, language departments across the country died off, leaving the government scratching their heads and wondering why.

* Exam results have always been the way governments measure their success in the world of education. Solution? "Let's make the exams easier so that everyone apart from the biggest cretin passes, and we end up looking like we've performed miracles in the world of education."

I could go on about the catastrophic policy of inclusion, but I'm bound to offend someone, and I've probably been thumping my fist on the desk for far too long.

There is one thing I have to say, though -

WHILE POLITICIANS ARE IN CONTROL OF EDUCATION KIDS ARE GOING TO GET A SHIT DEAL. WHY? BECAUSE THE FACT THAT THEY ONCE WENT TO SCHOOL THEMSELVES DOES NOT QUALIFY THEM TO GOVERN THE INSTITUTION. TEACHERS AND PEOPLE WITH QUALIFICATIONS IN THAT FIELD NEED TO BE PUT BACK IN CONTROL. THE SAME GOES FOR THE ARMY OF MIDDLE MANAGERS THAT ARE MAKING A PIG'S EAR OUT OF THE BRITISH HEALTHCARE SYSTEM.

Rant over.

 

[Vermilion]

* Years ago children were taught proper cookery. Then they changed it because the government decided that no one cooked anymore, so what was the point? Instead children were taught how to analyse the nutritional information on food labels.
* In recent times the government has discovered that people are getting far too fat... because they don't cook anymore. So they've reintroduced proper cookery to the school syllabus.

* Years ago children were taught how to do useful practical things, like erect shelves and sew hems. Then the industry sector contacted the government and said: "We'll donate more money to you if you make all children learn how to design and evaluate absolutely useless products."
And so design technology was born...

* In Wales, the powers that be decided that all pupils should be taught Welsh in schools. The result was that because they were forced to learn one language, children lost interest in learning other more useful ones, such as French and German. Slowly, language departments across the country died off, leaving the government scratching their heads and wondering why.

* Exam results have always been the way governments measure their success in the world of education. Solution? "Let's make the exams easier so that everyone apart from the biggest cretin passes, and we end up looking like we've performed miracles in the world of education."

I could go on about the catastrophic policy of inclusion, but I'm bound to offend someone, and I've probably been thumping my fist on the desk for far too long.

There is one thing I have to say, though -

WHILE POLITICIANS ARE IN CONTROL OF EDUCATION KIDS ARE GOING TO GET A SHIT DEAL. WHY? BECAUSE THE FACT THAT THEY ONCE WENT TO SCHOOL THEMSELVES DOES NOT QUALIFY THEM TO GOVERN THE INSTITUTION. TEACHERS AND PEOPLE WITH QUALIFICATIONS IN THAT FIELD NEED TO BE PUT BACK IN CONTROL. THE SAME GOES FOR THE ARMY OF MIDDLE MANAGERS THAT ARE MAKING A PIG'S EAR OUT OF THE BRITISH HEALTHCARE SYSTEM.

Rant over.

<starts thumping table and shouting HEAR HEAR>
x
V

 

[Vermilion]

For 35 years Northern Ireland including Belfast had the best State education system all round in the UK.

This was largely because with the onset of the Troubles in 1969 the provinces government was either non existent or moribund.Thus there were no changes in the education system. Meanwhile in the rest of the UK the government has interfered with and fiddled around with education in every aspect causing standards to go through the floor.

It's ironic that the Troubles in Belfast had the unlooked for effect of preserving a good state education but Jenny can now rest assured that the current Minister for Northern Ireland the odious Peter Hain and the new Education Minister in Northern Ireland (the Equally odious Martin McGuiness) are now working flat out to destroy the old Belfast educational standards.

And isn;t it interesting that the only state school that reached the finals of that school choir competition was one from Belfast...
x
V

 

[JamesSD]

I'm very unique that I came out of a public school system that, at least at the time, worked.

I grew up in South Suburban Minneapolis, in a city that you'd probably call white-collar middle class, although many families were blue collar/working class. For whatever reason, Minnesota does really really well in education relative to most of the country. Part of it is a willingness to pay for it. No one would say that money and quality of education have a strict 1:1 ratio, but it's not coincidental that the best public schools in a state are often those with more money than the worst in the state.

My elementary school had a strong program for "gifted" children, that did help keep me from being too bored in class. That, and being the little nerd that I was, I always liked to challenge myself by trying to get done with my math problems as quickly as possible, but still get 100%. My high school had a very strong AP program, and a lot of my classmates took college classes at community colleges or the University of Minnesota as Seniors.

I'll have to think about and do some reasearch on what made my school district so above average for the nation.

 

[CeriseNoire]

There is one thing I have to say, though -

WHILE POLITICIANS ARE IN CONTROL OF EDUCATION KIDS ARE GOING TO GET A SHIT DEAL. WHY? BECAUSE THE FACT THAT THEY ONCE WENT TO SCHOOL THEMSELVES DOES NOT QUALIFY THEM TO GOVERN THE INSTITUTION. TEACHERS AND PEOPLE WITH QUALIFICATIONS IN THAT FIELD NEED TO BE PUT BACK IN CONTROL. THE SAME GOES FOR THE ARMY OF MIDDLE MANAGERS THAT ARE MAKING A PIG'S EAR OUT OF THE BRITISH HEALTHCARE SYSTEM.

Rant over.

OMG. That sums up my feelings about the state of education in the US as well.We just finished our two weeks of state-mandated testing, and my first thought was: Yay! Now I can get back to actually teaching!

 

[Chantilyvamp]

Gawd...I just need zade to come sit with me for awhile and explain the uk school system and how to tell what grade my child will get in school. I'm still confused by the system here and grading and what they think is important.

So i'm cheating...I'm making sure to teach her some things myself ...and then when she starts school I'll just have to be annoying and keep asking the teachers how she is doing all the time till it all sinks in.

Hell I'm having enough trouble with the Uni lessons and the whole pass 1 pass 2 and so on...

~ But i have found that like the states the schools seem to be ran sometimes more in interest of the govt and usually have some outdated group of people running around saying what they think needs to be done and the real people who can make the difference and really know what they kids needs (teachers) are ignored and given a set of highly outragious set of guidelines to go by.

Past all that if they keep on with the grilling into every child to pass these mandatory tests...I guess I'll have to resort to going back to trying to teach her part of it at home to supplement what she gets at school. It just seems such a waste in the class to have the teacher forced to spend their time trying to get everyone passing the test that they are not able to teach as much.

 

[gauchecritic]

Your statements on vouchers are filled with non sequitors and contradictions. The beauty of vouchers is that to a large extent they level the playing field between the rich and the poor. In addition, they would cause "100 flowers to bloom" in the form of thousands of innovative new schools. Some of these would be crap, and they would fail. Others would be outstanding, and would be copied.
<>
Compare this not to some utopian fantasy, but to the current system, in which generation after generation of inner city children in their tens of millions are destroyed by government schools where no learning takes place, hope dies, and nothing ever changes.

Did you not read what I actually wrote? I can't see any contradictions and only a veering from course rather than non-sequitor which still answers the implied question about vouchers. That they are political and bare little resemblance to anything educational.
Vouchers (as I understand them) give a choice of mediocrity unless suplemented by parental contribution. Hence the illusion of choice.

The voucher system saves no taxes, it creates preferred schools and thereby creates poor schools. The government has a statutory obligation to provide the semblance of education for all children, by law and constrained by that fact puts itself in a non-failure situation. Applying market forces to a governmental obligation, whilst in the long term may improve a small percentage of schooling, will ultimately return to the status quo of a tiered system simply because there is no visible end product by which to judge the quality.

As to the current system it is a mechanism of the status quo which is happy to actively prevent the lumpen proletariat from realising their own condition. That is how society works.

So if it can't be changed to my socialist utopia then the only option available is to make the most of the system as it stands and that is the only place where choice can realistically be said to occur.
As I said in my first post, prepare your child as well as you are able before they go to school and hopefully they will struggle along and continue to learn rather than choose the way of the common herd.

 

[wehstar]

WHILE POLITICIANS ARE IN CONTROL OF EDUCATION KIDS ARE GOING TO GET A SHIT DEAL. WHY? BECAUSE THE FACT THAT THEY ONCE WENT TO SCHOOL THEMSELVES DOES NOT QUALIFY THEM TO GOVERN THE INSTITUTION. TEACHERS AND PEOPLE WITH QUALIFICATIONS IN THAT FIELD NEED TO BE PUT BACK IN CONTROL. THE SAME GOES FOR THE ARMY OF MIDDLE MANAGERS THAT ARE MAKING A PIG'S EAR OUT OF THE BRITISH HEALTHCARE SYSTEM.

The story that has been told a million times around. Then there is the argument that just because you are good at a task (like say teaching, or surgery) doesn't mean you will be good in another role (like say man management and strategic management).

The latter argument seems to be winning at the moment from what I can see. The answer, not so easy to find, otherwise all organisations would be doing it!

 

[oggbashan]

One of the problems with UK schooling is too much change in too short a time.

Instead of altering something and waiting to see whether it works, another change is implemented before the first has had time to be evaluated.

The National Curriculum might have been a good idea but produced far too much paperwork.

Testing pupils for their progress might have been a good idea but produced far too much paperwork.

Assessing teachers might have been a good idea but produced far too much paperwork.

School league tables might have been a good idea but was too simplistic and produced far too much paperwork.

Instead of reducing the paperwork, the powers-that-be made completing the paperwork more important than the actual teaching.

A school inspection examines the paperwork more than the standard of teaching. The teachers have to teach according to the rules instead of adapting to the pupils and their own strengths.

The old saw has been expanded: Those who can, do; those who cannot, teach; those who cannot teach, teach teachers; those who cannot teach teachers, inspect schools; those who cannot inspect schools, produce the guidelines; and those who cannot produce or even understand the guidelines, make the rules.

Og