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Two questions

twelveoone said:
why the asking?
I withdraw my question.
This is rhetorical on your part, you know the answer will be varied.
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Yes, I know the answer will be varied.

Yes, I admit to some degree the question is rhetorical. In the sense that I would like to use the question to begin a meaningful discussion on the matter. Is that so wrong?

I think the why gave me away, didn't it? Too much, too much. I knew as soon as I hit submit.
 
UnderYourSpell said:
Well it depends doesn't it? Some are some aren't, the crappy childhood ones are (getting rid of childhood angst) but you'll be pleased to know the old lady growing cannabis isn't :)
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I am pleased to hear that :)

Which do you like writing better? Which do you like reading better?
 
I think I am a lazy reader, if I don't understand I'll try a few times then skip then desert
 
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Palba_Noruda said:
Yes, I know the answer will be varied.

Yes, I admit to some degree the question is rhetorical. In the sense that I would like to use the question to begin a meaningful discussion on the matter. Is that so wrong?

I think the why gave me away, didn't it? Too much, too much. I knew as soon as I hit submit.
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no, but they (poets) are such liars, and pasts are reconstructed, but it does reminds me of when I was in Katanga...or was that Mombasa...or was that Warren Zevon and not me.

more specifically an example, Buk claimed 90% of his work was autobiographical, some of his associates said maybe 40-50%

and closer to home, someone asked me once if what I wrote really happened, yes I said, that is exactly the way I filed it in the police report.
Problem was, it was set in the old west and quite absurdist.
not that police reports are always gospel, either.
 
Palba_Noruda said:
Art is the lie that tells the truth. -- Picasso
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The antidote for Picasso's quote, is Goebels "The bigger the lie, the more it will be believed." Leni Riefenstahl's film The Triumph Of Will was a great film. Unfortunately what it was selling, wasn't great. Some of the greatest art in the western tradition was originally propaganda ie. the art the Vatican commissioned.

As for Picasso, if the republican government hadn't commissioned him and paid him, Picasso wouldn't have painted Guernica. It was a commercial transaction, not something that he felt compelled to paint. Personally, I think it is one of the most overated masterpieces ever and in my book, there are plenty of overated masterpieces around.

I meant to add, art is the first three letters of ARTificial. We are all involved in artifice and even when it comes to autobiography, I suspect we are often involved in deceiving ourselves.
 
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P_N, I've always liked that Picasso quote. :)

I hope I didn't sound snarky in my earlier response: didn't mean to. It's just that I don't see how anything I write can not be autobiographical because I wrote it. I may or may not be writing about something that really happened (and most of my poems are a combo of truth and imagination), but it's still my perspective and so tells something about me. Even characters I make up to narrate in poems have me behind them.

As for the why (and this goes with my feeling that all poems are, on some level, autobiographical), I am compelled to tell my stories. They come out in my poems whether I consciously recognize it or not when I'm writing. Sometimes I go back and realize that a poem is much more about me (and my myriad of quirks and crazy) than I thought when I was writing it.
 
Angeline said:
P_N, I've always liked that Picasso quote. :)

I hope I didn't sound snarky in my earlier response: didn't mean to. It's just that I don't see how anything I write can not be autobiographical because I wrote it. I may or may not be writing about something that really happened (and most of my poems are a combo of truth and imagination), but it's still my perspective and so tells something about me. Even characters I make up to narrate in poems have me behind them.

As for the why (and this goes with my feeling that all poems are, on some level, autobiographical), I am compelled to tell my stories. They come out in my poems whether I consciously recognize it or not when I'm writing.
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No worries, Angeline. I am making a note, though, that your answer seems to be getting a bit slippery. ;)



Angeline said:
Sometimes I go back and realize that a poem is much more about me (and my myriad of quirks and crazy) than I thought when I was writing it.
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I've had that happen, too. It makes me feel like we're doing SOMETHING right.
 
twelveoone said:
no, but they (poets) are such liars, and pasts are reconstructed, but it does reminds me of when I was in Katanga...or was that Mombasa...or was that Warren Zevon and not me.
Click to expand...

Used to be a person could come to this forum and have an honest conversation about poetry. Now . . .?

twelveoone said:
more specifically an example, Buk claimed 90% of his work was autobiographical, some of his associates said maybe 40-50%
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Okay. Okay. You've redeemed yourself, twelveoone.

So what do you make of this discrepancy in how autobiographical Buk was?

I guess I would think that Bukowski was especially suited to create poetic fish tales. I can imagine other poets twisting their histories for dramatic effect, though not quite in the same way as Buk.
 
bogusagain said:
The antidote for Picasso's quote, is Goebels "The bigger the lie, the more it will be believed." Leni Riefenstahl's film The Triumph Of Will was a great film. Unfortunately what it was selling, wasn't great. Some of the greatest art in the western tradition was originally propaganda ie. the art the Vatican commissioned.

As for Picasso, if the republican government hadn't commissioned him and paid him, Picasso wouldn't have painted Guernica. It was a commercial transaction, not something that he felt compelled to paint. Personally, I think it is one of the most overated masterpieces ever and in my book, there are plenty of overated masterpieces around.

I meant to add, art is the first three letters of ARTificial. We are all involved in artifice and even when it comes to autobiography, I suspect we are often involved in deceiving ourselves.
Click to expand...

I like these examples, bogusagain. What goes into something the artist is compelled to create that DOESN'T go into a painting like Guernica?

I don't know what to make of Riefenstahl. I saw a segment of Olympia in a film class and thought it was rather beautiful. I remember these shots of divers that were unlike anything I'd seen.
 
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Palba_Noruda said:
Used to be a person could come to this forum and have an honest conversation about poetry. Now . . .?


Okay. Okay. You've redeemed yourself, twelveoone.

So what do you make of this discrepancy in how autobiographical Buk was?

I guess I would think that Bukowski was especially suited to create poetic fish tales. I can imagine other poets twisting their histories for dramatic effect, though not quite in the same way as Buk.
Click to expand...
trust no one
now the ability to sling a good bullshit story transposes itself quite nicely to the ability to tell a good story (poem), the emphasis is the good story, if it was history, journalism, I hope for the truth.
Here, I hope for fiction. Crafted fiction.

Bukowski was a comedian, as a poet per se, he was often piss poor, as a slinger of good bullshit stories he excelled, as he knew interjections, misdirections and timing quite well, a different set of tools. I read him as crafted fiction.

I redeem myself by attempting to parse the effective use of tools, there is my honesty. I am often wrong, there is my honesty.

trust no one

When I write the occasional semi forgettable poem, I use all the craft I can muster, to either make it amusing or believable, but I make the shit up as go along.

Having said that, I see another round of devaluations coming, as the anons can now prove I'm lying.
 
Palba_Noruda said:
What goes into something the artist is compelled to create that DOESN'T go into a painting like Guernica?
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That I don't know. For my money, Picasso was a better showman and bullshitter than an artist, even though he was a very talented painter and draughtsman. However, he used his contacts and got an influential backer like Gertrude Stein who wanted fame on his back and between them they convinced the art world he was a god. For my money he wasted his talents or maybe he wasn't capable of carrying through his youthful promise and decided to bullshit. All the same, the people who matter have faith in his genius and those who don't, have an interest of keeping his prices high for the sake of the market. I remember an large exhibition of Picasso in London in the 90s, I had an epiphany and saw picasso without his clothes. I've never been able to take his fetishization of art seriously since.

Of course, most people will think I'm nuts for holding this view.
 
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