Two character conversations

[Enchantment_of_Nyx]

What a pretty eye that would make...

I just don't see it...

 

[SimonDoom]

Wasn't talking about you. It was more of a generalization of the forum as a whole, more than this particular thread or posters within it.

I've said it many times here, and in every other aspect of my life.

years ago Nike created the simplest, but most powerful slogan in advertising that says it all

Just do it.

That coupled with my father's mantra of "Don't talk about it, do it" has become my method of getting better at anything

I swear its so simple that people want to complicate it.

Some people like to complicate things. For them, it's part of the fun.

I think sometimes you are too dismissive or critical of alternative perspectives. You have an approach that works very well for you, and that's because you obviously have a natural gift for storytelling. You succeed without having to worry too much about the rules that English teacher-types fuss over. But others have different strengths and weaknesses, and approach story writing in different ways.

I love the study of grammar. It might seem like pretentiousness to some to sling around fancy grammar or writing terms but for others of us it's just part of the fun.

And it does add clarity. If everyone knows the terminology then they can have a meaningful, intelligent conversation about a topic. This thread has suffered a bit because there's been so much confusion about what, exactly, we're talking about. I'm still not quite sure.

 

[lovecraft68]

Some people like to complicate things. For them, it's part of the fun.

I think sometimes you are too dismissive or critical of alternative perspectives. You have an approach that works very well for you, and that's because you obviously have a natural gift for storytelling. You succeed without having to worry too much about the rules that English teacher-types fuss over. But others have different strengths and weaknesses, and approach story writing in different ways.

I love the study of grammar. It might seem like pretentiousness to some to sling around fancy grammar or writing terms but for others of us it's just part of the fun.

And it does add clarity. If everyone knows the terminology then they can have a meaningful, intelligent conversation about a topic. This thread has suffered a bit because there's been so much confusion about what, exactly, we're talking about. I'm still not quite sure.

First, I'm in the same boat as you, I'm not sure I'm even answering a question that was asked.

Second, I agree that I tend dismiss over thinking of pretty much everything, but I don't do it in the sense of this works for me it should work for you too.

I do it in the spirit of people in the forums all have various levels of writing experience, here and outside of here, and education etc...for people who have been around the block a long detailed let's explore the nuances of grammar is fine.

But I always lean towards the newer lss experienced type who are trying to find their footing and for them I feel its more important to encourage them to simply write, have fun, do your thing and find your voice, rather than being pounded with rules like they're sitting in an English class and now start second guessing themselves and worry and second guessing.

Remember back in the day when D&D first started:? They had the two boxed sets, basic and advanced. You need one before the other. Get the story telling down before you move on to the technical.

In the end I'm presenting one school of thought, others have another and the OP can take whatever they want from each approach.

I don't tell anyone what to do, I just stress enjoy the journey and you'll get the destination.

 

[AlinaX]

I just don't see it...

Maybe this will help.

 

[SimonDoom]

Remember back in the day when D&D first started:? They had the two boxed sets, basic and advanced. You need one before the other. Get the story telling down before you move on to the technical.

.

I actually never played D&D back in the day, but I had some friends who did. I discovered it after I had kids and I was their dungeon master, and it was a blast. D&D is a great analog to writing stories because it's so creative and relies upon imagination. I was a pretty good dungeon master despite having only a very basic grasp of the rules of the game. So, despite my fondness for knowing the rules, I have to agree good storytelling beats rules every time.

The game I've never grasped is Magic:The Gathering. Played that with my kids and it just seemed like they were making up the rules as they went along to beat me every hand. I'd play something like, I don't know, "Snarfle's Hellhound" and say "I've got you" and they'd roll their eyes and say something like "No Dad you don't have the manna for that" or they'd play some card I'd never seen in response and say "Sorry but your Hellhound is toast."

 

[Enchantment_of_Nyx]

I actually never played D&D back in the day, but I had some friends who did. I discovered it after I had kids and I was their dungeon master, and it was a blast. D&D is a great analog to writing stories because it's so creative and relies upon imagination. I was a pretty good dungeon master despite having only a very basic grasp of the rules of the game. So, despite my fondness for knowing the rules, I have to agree good storytelling beats rules every time.

The game I've never grasped is Magic:The Gathering. Played that with my kids and it just seemed like they were making up the rules as they went along to beat me every hand. I'd play something like, I don't know, "Snarfle's Hellhound" and say "I've got you" and they'd roll their eyes and say something like "No Dad you don't have the manna for that" or they'd play some card I'd never seen in response and say "Sorry but your Hellhound is toast."

Sounds to me like your kids knew exactly how to deal with Dad's fixation on rules! Either that, or they out-ruled you, in which case the best defense would have been to make up your own.

 

[jsmiam]

Maybe this will help.

Maybe THIS will help. https://youtu.be/QPqAcOnEBUI

 

[lovecraft68]

I actually never played D&D back in the day, but I had some friends who did. I discovered it after I had kids and I was their dungeon master, and it was a blast. D&D is a great analog to writing stories because it's so creative and relies upon imagination. I was a pretty good dungeon master despite having only a very basic grasp of the rules of the game. So, despite my fondness for knowing the rules, I have to agree good storytelling beats rules every time.

The game I've never grasped is Magic:The Gathering. Played that with my kids and it just seemed like they were making up the rules as they went along to beat me every hand. I'd play something like, I don't know, "Snarfle's Hellhound" and say "I've got you" and they'd roll their eyes and say something like "No Dad you don't have the manna for that" or they'd play some card I'd never seen in response and say "Sorry but your Hellhound is toast."

We had Magic the gathering tournaments at the comic shop I owned. I learned how to play...barely, but my daughter was a whiz at it so she ran the tournaments.

I did briefly get into Call of Cthulhu which is D&D style RPG nased on the Lovecraft mythos but I just never got the same feel as I did when I was young and playing D&D.

I played throughout my teens then got into another game, BDSM

 

[Brutal_One]

Wasn't talking about you. It was more of a generalization of the forum as a whole, more than this particular thread or posters within it.

I've said it many times here, and in every other aspect of my life.

years ago Nike created the simplest, but most powerful slogan in advertising that says it all

Just do it.

That coupled with my father's mantra of "Don't talk about it, do it" has become my method of getting better at anything

I swear its so simple that people want to complicate it.

Excellent advice - and for life in general. Take action. Review Results. Modify action accordingly. Rinse, Repeat.

 

[Brutal_One]

Just as a summary for the exercise given that probably most of the readers who choose to comment have probably done so the overall rating for both chapters is above 4 {ch02 4.07 /28 2109 views; ch04 4.15 / 13 1827 views}.

I had one public comment that they were duplicate chapters but I guess it was a quick read through. They are not.

Having said that though and the above summary I probably will not use the same technique again. It worked for this one very early and important dialog between the two main characters who are the only characters in the entire arc that have the BDSM relationship that is detailed in the story. {There is one other but only as a passing reference}.

Brutal One

 

[Ginlover]

It's clear that switching POVs doesn't work at all for some people. Gin Lover's comment makes me think she doesn't like any switching at all, and there are probably plenty of readers who feel the same way. Gin Lover will hopefully correct me if I'm wrong, but I assume that when readers/writers don't care for any switches in POV, it's probably because they like to settle down behind the eyes of the character from whose perspective the story is being told, almost like first-person narration, but with some of the perks that go along with third-person. That doesn't mean it can't be done effectively and enjoyably for most readers, and it doesn't mean it's "wrong." I see it as a preference that's akin to first-person/third-person preferences. There are plenty of people who won't even read a story in first-person, but there are others would read nothing but first-person narrated stories if there were enough of them to compose a steady diet.

If a story is omniscient I'm fine, if the story is deep third person POV I want a scene or chapter break as we change POV. This only applies to good writing. A well written story 99% in one characters deep third person POV then mid paragraph swaps totally drags me from the story. I feel cheated as a reader.

A story I read was all set in the 3rd person deep POV of the woman. Just as they got down to it on page seven, I got a stream of internal narration from the male character about what a magnificent woman he had in his bed. After a couple of paragraphs still in the sex scene, it went back to the woman for the rest of the story - another four or so pages. That stopped me reading the story and got me wondering instead about how the writer used the story to create a character a man couldnt help worshipping and if the writer had cathartic reasons for writing, no longer was I reading the story, more my mind was wandering. So yes for me in deep POV is bloody annoying if head hopping.

 

[Enchantment_of_Nyx]

If a story is omniscient I'm fine, if the story is deep third person POV I want a scene or chapter break as we change POV. This only applies to good writing. A well written story 99% in one characters deep third person POV then mid paragraph swaps totally drags me from the story. I feel cheated as a reader.

A story I read was all set in the 3rd person deep POV of the woman. Just as they got down to it on page seven, I got a stream of internal narration from the male character about what a magnificent woman he had in his bed. After a couple of paragraphs still in the sex scene, it went back to the woman for the rest of the story - another four or so pages. That stopped me reading the story and got me wondering instead about how the writer used the story to create a character a man couldnt help worshipping and if the writer had cathartic reasons for writing, no longer was I reading the story, more my mind was wandering. So yes for me in deep POV is bloody annoying if head hopping.

That's kind of a weird way to do it.

How do you feel when it's closer to a 50/50 distribution? Equal opportunity head hopping. (Assuming there are indicators of the POV change.)

 

[Ginlover]

Mid paragraph if I'm getting internal thoughts of both characters or worse multiple characters I cant get into a story. As you said I want to be behind the eyes of the narrator. If those eyes change backwards and forwards I'm not really engaging with anyone. Make it omniscient and I will happily read. Show me the emotions. He frowned as she laughed.

Plus as a reader I love writing that gives me both perspectives without head hopping.

In my example the writer could have had the man speaking telling the woman she was beautiful. Or she could've described how it felt like he was worshipping her. I didnt need

She could help but gasp as he tore off her shirt and threw her on the bed. Catching her breath she silently willed him to touch her. He looked at her and realised he was so lucky and had never seen such a magnificent feminine form. Then the moment came as he traced a finger across her stomach. She felt like she was on fire.

His eyes raked her body like a starving man looking at a buffet is not head hopping its totally acceptable a female inturrprets his look that way. But his eyes raked her and he felt like a starving man looking at a buffet is head hopping to me. A fine line great authors do well.

 

[Enchantment_of_Nyx]

Mid paragraph if I'm getting internal thoughts of both characters or worse multiple characters I cant get into a story. As you said I want to be behind the eyes of the narrator. If those eyes change backwards and forwards I'm not really engaging with anyone. Make it omniscient and I will happily read. Show me the emotions. He frowned as she laughed.

Plus as a reader I love writing that gives me both perspectives without head hopping.

In my example the writer could have had the man speaking telling the woman she was beautiful. Or she could've described how it felt like he was worshipping her. I didnt need

She could help but gasp as he tore off her shirt and threw her on the bed. Catching her breath she silently willed him to touch her. He looked at her and realised he was so lucky and had never seen such a magnificent feminine form. Then the moment came as he traced a finger across her stomach. She felt like she was on fire.

His eyes raked her body like a starving man looking at a buffet is not head hopping its totally acceptable a female inturrprets his look that way. But his eyes raked her and he felt like a starving man looking at a buffet is head hopping to me. A fine line great authors do well.

Head hopping is just about the only thing about it that doesn't bother me. Funny how a style can be so far outside of my preference that I have a hard time evaluating it.

Interesting points, though, about the distinction between her interpretation versus his perspective.

 

[Brutal_One]

I actually never played D&D back in the day, but I had some friends who did. I discovered it after I had kids and I was their dungeon master, and it was a blast. D&D is a great analog to writing stories because it's so creative and relies upon imagination. I was a pretty good dungeon master despite having only a very basic grasp of the rules of the game. So, despite my fondness for knowing the rules, I have to agree good storytelling beats rules every time.

The game I've never grasped is Magic:The Gathering. Played that with my kids and it just seemed like they were making up the rules as they went along to beat me every hand. I'd play something like, I don't know, "Snarfle's Hellhound" and say "I've got you" and they'd roll their eyes and say something like "No Dad you don't have the manna for that" or they'd play some card I'd never seen in response and say "Sorry but your Hellhound is toast."

I played AD&D religiously starting from early high school and through University. We always played in first person character. We all had our own campaigns and universes so we’re both Dungeon Master’s and Player characters. Was fun too to play high level modules. I can safely say AD&D was fundamentally important in helping with the imagination and story writing.

I got into and still play Magic the Gathering and now on Magic the Gathering Arena. The game is fun but super complex and difficult to get very good at. Professionals compete for million dollar prize funds. Not quite poker level but close enough. The writers for MTG do an excellent job with the story background and create new card sets (rotation keeps the game fresh and of course the revenue streams). On recent set Throne of Eldraine used pretty much all the standard fairy tale tropes to great effect. It used to be referred to as the ‘crack’ equivalent of cards being both addictive and expensive. Brutal One