Turning Point

[Netzach]

I don't understand why men suck and I don't understand why this is a poor you thread. BiBunny is making a conscious decision to make a go of a relationship which is less than ideal maybe for you or me or the majority of people, but clearly she wants it to work and isn't with someone who doesn't "not care" about her or if it works or not.

I'm so tired of "it will only end in tears" adages. Making people feel like crap for leading complicated double lives making people feel like crap for feeling a need to be in the closet, making people feel like crap for learning things late in life - what the hell? Has anyone on lit ever heard of the phrase "harm reduction?" If I was married and queer and closeted I'd probably off myself if I took the messages such a person would get on these boards to heart.


No offense to any one person, but seriously. I've never seen people so scared about the sanctity of marriage or the wrongness of cheating outside of fundamentalist contexts, and these mores are spilling over into this thread big time.

Here's a thought - someone can lie to one person and be completely above board with another. Someone can screw someone over or something up and not be a horrible person, in fact I defy anyone to explain to me how their relationship choices have never deeply hurt anyone else.

 

[BiBunny]

I don't understand why men suck and I don't understand why this is a poor you thread. BiBunny is making a conscious decision to make a go of a relationship which is less than ideal maybe for you or me or the majority of people, but clearly she wants it to work and isn't with someone who doesn't "not care" about her or if it works or not.

I'm so tired of "it will only end in tears" adages. Making people feel like crap for leading complicated double lives making people feel like crap for feeling a need to be in the closet, making people feel like crap for learning things late in life - what the hell? Has anyone on lit ever heard of the phrase "harm reduction?" If I was married and queer and closeted I'd probably off myself if I took the messages such a person would get on these boards to heart.


No offense to any one person, but seriously. I've never seen people so scared about the sanctity of marriage or the wrongness of cheating outside of fundamentalist contexts, and these mores are spilling over into this thread big time.

Here's a thought - someone can lie to one person and be completely above board with another. Someone can screw someone over or something up and not be a horrible person, in fact I defy anyone to explain to me how their relationship choices have never deeply hurt anyone else.

I love you, Netz. Seriously.

My next thing to do will be to sit down and talk to Kitty. (Not that she hasn't been reading the thread, obviously, but talking is still way better.)

I know it's going to be hard. I also know that if B. didn't care about both of us, he wouldn't be bothering. He just needs to learn to get his proverbial shit together a little bit better.

 

[AngelicAssassin]

i think maybe men just suck.

and just think how many body parts would languish away in loneliness if we didn't ... http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2003-8/363868/2cool2.gif

 

[FurryFury]

*chuckles*

Fury

 

[Evil_Geoff]

*hugs* finally made it through the thread. i think maybe men just suck.

Not me...

I don't swing that way!

Well... Okay... I don't have a vacuum bed. Yet!

 

[im_a_voyeur]

I just skimmed through some of the replies so forgive me if I'm being repetitive but I wanted to weigh in because I've had some experience with trying to make a poly situation work after deception had occurred with the other 2 parties involved.

I'm sorry but this is just a recipe for disaster. I understand if you want to give it a try because I did the same myself but there may be a lot of heartache and drama ahead.

 

[graceanne]

Not me...

I don't swing that way!

Well... Okay... I don't have a vacuum bed. Yet!

I think you protest to much. Wadda ya think, shank?

 

[Marquis]

Okey dokey, I'm going to attempt to address everyone who's responded since my last post. If I leave you out, it's just 'cause I'm a little slow on the uptake this morning, not because I don't every last one of you and value your opinions.

EG, thanks for the well-wishes. I know it's going to be a long, uphill road, but I think I'm looking forward to it mostly because there will be honesty in this situation now that wasn't there before. I'm really not expecting miracles; the harshly realistic side of me knows this will probably go to hell in a handbasket in a hurry. I guess the masochist in me has to see it through, though. She knows that Kitty is in the picture, and while I'm not going to throw it all at her at once, if we do progress that far, she and Kitty will meet, too, mostly so I can say, "Ok, now you know my girlfriend." And, as far as dumb luck and sheer determination go, I'm blessed (cursed?) with both of them, so I can only hope they'll do me some good.

FF, I agree that she had a right to flip out. I don't blame her for that. After I spoke to her last night (now, albeit, it was through Yahoo messenger, but I do plan to meet her face-to-face when everybody's comfortable), I feel a lot better about it. She is the one who is most uncertain about the whole thing, but after talking for a little while, even she said that she believed we could like each other. Like I said up there, it probably will go to shit in a hurry, but I am doing my best to be optimistic nonetheless.

Netz, thanks for your input as well. You were another of those people I was hoping to hear from when I started this particular thread. I think you're right about this needing to be more of a "V" than a triad. I mean, that's basically what it's been all along, though he hasn't been very good with a.) telling her the truth and b.) managing his time betwixt the two of us. I still have to sit down and have a talk with him about how I refuse to keep accepting the scraps he throws me, but I am willing to give it time for her to get comfortable. We'll just have to see how it goes, I guess.

BB, thank you for the hugs and cookies. I think I need 'em at this point. I appreciate your story, too. It'll be something for me to try to remember not to fall victim to and, I think, another reason for me to stick to Netz's suggestion of "V, not triad," at least for awhile. I also have Kitty to consider, so I can't waste all my time trying to outdo someone else.

Kitty, you're probably right. I do have this annoying tendency to overanalyze things. I planned on coming home today, but, yeah...I fell asleep before I got to talk to him last night. Once I get all this talking out of the way, maybe the road will be less bumpy for a while!

Once again, thanks, everybody. I'll probably be back plenty of times in the next few weeks to get advice and support. I feel like I have to be the strong one in this situation most of the time, but even I need to vent occasionally. If somebody spots Marquis, too, could you send him this way?

Well, as requested, I'm here and I'll do my best to offer some advice. I want to point out that my own poly situation crashed in a blaze of fire pretty quickly, so while I do have some experience, I'm not exactly the poly expert you might need.

First off, there is one thing I have to admit I find really annoying about this forum, or rather people in general when it comes to relationship advice. It seems to be absolutely ingrained in people to be automatically negative at the first sign of relationship trouble. I don't know how this came about, but I've always disliked it. I want to be able to air my grievances on lit without every fucking complaint, be it about cheating or snoring, bringing on waves of sympathy and comments of "it's not going to work, blah blah blah".

There seems to be this huge impetus for everyone in a relationship to pretend they are constantly happy and carefree, because at the very first sign of questioning or dissatisfaction, everyone automatically concludes it's time to start over.

I call bullshit on that.

I'm not going to sit here and weigh out your chances of happiness in this relationship like a goddamn actuary, but I will ask you this:

is it worth it?

That's the only question you need to answer.

If I can use a metaphor really briefly; I have a friend who is a small time movie producer. I was really excited when I heard this, because I always felt like I had tons of great ideas for movies. I would tell him my ideas for the movie, and he'd always say "yeah man, that sounds awesome."

Finally, I asked him if he thought he'd use any of my ideas and he said no, he had his own ideas. I was a little offended, thinking my ideas were pretty good! He said that any idea for a movie is good, it's all about the execution.

1% inspiration, 99% perspiration, all that jazz.

The point is this:

You're not stupid. You recognize the challenges that this situation is presenting. You may get an even better idea of this in the future. What you're going to have to ask yourself is, "is what I'm putting into this, worth what I'm getting out of it?"

If the answer is no, it's time to use your resources more economically.

 

[Marquis]

I don't understand why men suck and I don't understand why this is a poor you thread. BiBunny is making a conscious decision to make a go of a relationship which is less than ideal maybe for you or me or the majority of people, but clearly she wants it to work and isn't with someone who doesn't "not care" about her or if it works or not.

I'm so tired of "it will only end in tears" adages. Making people feel like crap for leading complicated double lives making people feel like crap for feeling a need to be in the closet, making people feel like crap for learning things late in life - what the hell? Has anyone on lit ever heard of the phrase "harm reduction?" If I was married and queer and closeted I'd probably off myself if I took the messages such a person would get on these boards to heart.


No offense to any one person, but seriously. I've never seen people so scared about the sanctity of marriage or the wrongness of cheating outside of fundamentalist contexts, and these mores are spilling over into this thread big time.

Here's a thought - someone can lie to one person and be completely above board with another. Someone can screw someone over or something up and not be a horrible person, in fact I defy anyone to explain to me how their relationship choices have never deeply hurt anyone else.

Ha ha ha, I love you.

 

[Marquis]

I just skimmed through some of the replies so forgive me if I'm being repetitive but I wanted to weigh in because I've had some experience with trying to make a poly situation work after deception had occurred with the other 2 parties involved.

I'm sorry but this is just a recipe for disaster. I understand if you want to give it a try because I did the same myself but there may be a lot of heartache and drama ahead.

Wow, this is quite a surprise.

You should've lurked quietly, I was preparing to post my debriefing on our relationship and now you'll feel like what I'm writing is designed to manipulate you.

I guess you probably would've felt that way anyway.

I've done my best to respect your request of no contact, so I'm sorry if this is a violation, but it's nice to see you.

Feel free to respond to my debriefing.

 

[im_a_voyeur]

Wow, this is quite a surprise.

You should've lurked quietly, I was preparing to post my debriefing on our relationship and now you'll feel like what I'm writing is designed to manipulate you.

I guess you probably would've felt that way anyway.

I've done my best to respect your request of no contact, so I'm sorry if this is a violation, but it's nice to see you.

Feel free to respond to my debriefing.

After I confronted you about the thread when I felt you weren't being totally forthcoming of the details, you told me you felt uncomfortable with me reading that thread. So I said I would leave the thread alone so you could have the freedom to write what you wish without having me analyze your every word. I've kept my promise and have stayed out of that thread.

BiBunny's situation, though not exactly like ours, had some similar features so I felt compelled to weigh in and give my opinion.

 

[im_a_voyeur]

That's how they do it on Big Love! The ladies set the schedule together first.

Fury

I am just now seeing this post. I loved that show!

 

[im_a_voyeur]

I don't understand why men suck and I don't understand why this is a poor you thread. BiBunny is making a conscious decision to make a go of a relationship which is less than ideal maybe for you or me or the majority of people, but clearly she wants it to work and isn't with someone who doesn't "not care" about her or if it works or not.

I'm so tired of "it will only end in tears" adages. Making people feel like crap for leading complicated double lives making people feel like crap for feeling a need to be in the closet, making people feel like crap for learning things late in life - what the hell? Has anyone on lit ever heard of the phrase "harm reduction?" If I was married and queer and closeted I'd probably off myself if I took the messages such a person would get on these boards to heart.


No offense to any one person, but seriously. I've never seen people so scared about the sanctity of marriage or the wrongness of cheating outside of fundamentalist contexts, and these mores are spilling over into this thread big time.

Here's a thought - someone can lie to one person and be completely above board with another. Someone can screw someone over or something up and not be a horrible person, in fact I defy anyone to explain to me how their relationship choices have never deeply hurt anyone else.

Double post, sorry.

 

[im_a_voyeur]

I don't understand why men suck and I don't understand why this is a poor you thread. BiBunny is making a conscious decision to make a go of a relationship which is less than ideal maybe for you or me or the majority of people, but clearly she wants it to work and isn't with someone who doesn't "not care" about her or if it works or not.

I'm so tired of "it will only end in tears" adages. Making people feel like crap for leading complicated double lives making people feel like crap for feeling a need to be in the closet, making people feel like crap for learning things late in life - what the hell? Has anyone on lit ever heard of the phrase "harm reduction?" If I was married and queer and closeted I'd probably off myself if I took the messages such a person would get on these boards to heart.


No offense to any one person, but seriously. I've never seen people so scared about the sanctity of marriage or the wrongness of cheating outside of fundamentalist contexts, and these mores are spilling over into this thread big time.

Here's a thought - someone can lie to one person and be completely above board with another. Someone can screw someone over or something up and not be a horrible person, in fact I defy anyone to explain to me how their relationship choices have never deeply hurt anyone else.

Yes, I definitely think that can be true but when you're dealing with a poly situation, if you've been deceptive with one person and honest with the other, when it's time to bring all parties together, it's going to be hard for the person who was lied to to trust the other parties involved.

He cheated on his girlfriend and just because now he's being honest about the situation, everything is supposed to be ok? I'm pretty sure the girlfriend is harboring a lot of resentment and even though she's stating she wants to try to make it work, because an atmosphere of dishonesty was initially created by him cheating, she's going to have a hard time with trust. In poly, trust is vital. If you don't have that, even with the best intentions, everything falls apart.

Believe me, I know.

 

[Marquis]

After I confronted you about the thread when I felt you weren't being totally forthcoming of the details, you told me you felt uncomfortable with me reading that thread. So I said I would leave the thread alone so you could have the freedom to write what you wish without having me analyze your every word. I've kept my promise and have stayed out of that thread.

Funny, I didn't say anything about that thread.

But, you're a very lucky guesser because that is where I have posted my debriefing. Feel free to have a look and correct any details I haven't been forthcoming with.

BiBunny's situation, though not exactly like ours, had some similar features so I felt compelled to weigh in and give my opinion.

Fair enough.

It's still good to see you.

 

[im_a_voyeur]

Funny, I didn't say anything about that thread.

But, you're a very lucky guesser because that is where I have posted my debriefing. Feel free to have a look and correct any details I haven't been forthcoming with.

[/QUOTE)

Well, I didn't see you start any new threads and I can tell that there's been new postings in that thread so I assumed that is where you would post the update on things. Most of my assumptions tend to be right.

 

[Marquis]

Well, I didn't see you start any new threads and I can tell that there's been new postings in that thread so I assumed that is where you would post the update on things. Most of my assumptions tend to be right.

Ha ha ha.

Feel free to take a peek. Despite your assurances, I wasn't able to shake the feeling that you might give in to your curiousity and I've already accepted that you might read what I've written.

 

[Netzach]

Yes, I definitely think that can be true but when you're dealing with a poly situation, if you've been deceptive with one person and honest with the other, when it's time to bring all parties together, it's going to be hard for the person who was lied to to trust the other parties involved.

He cheated on his girlfriend and just because now he's being honest about the situation, everything is supposed to be ok? I'm pretty sure the girlfriend is harboring a lot of resentment and even though she's stating she wants to try to make it work, because an atmosphere of dishonesty was initially created by him cheating, she's going to have a hard time with trust. In poly, trust is vital. If you don't have that, even with the best intentions, everything falls apart.

Believe me, I know.

The miscalculation is that people believe the forgiveness required for trust to resume can be:

forced to happen

happen fast - we like instant gratification.

No and no, and it may not happen. The ball is in that person's court now, emotionally, and they have to feel like it is. A sense of emotional blackmail is not going to enhance that sense that they can really turn it over, evaluate it and come to a genuine conclusion that they want to try this rather than
"I have to try this"

 

[im_a_voyeur]

The miscalculation is that people believe the forgiveness required for trust to resume can be:

forced to happen

happen fast - we like instant gratification.

No and no, and it may not happen. The ball is in that person's court now, emotionally, and they have to feel like it is. A sense of emotional blackmail is not going to enhance that sense that they can really turn it over, evaluate it and come to a genuine conclusion that they want to try this rather than
"I have to try this"

This is very true.

 

[BiBunny]

After reading this thread, I suddenly feel terrible about myself and like a total fucking interloper in someone else's life. I want so badly for this to work, but, goddamn, if some of these posts indicate what B. and J. (his other girl) think about me, maybe it's just time to say fuck it. I dunno.

I'm willing to do whatever it takes to make it work because I believe it's worthwhile, but Jesus H. Christ.

ETA: Marquis, I had absolutely no idea what was going on with you, and if I had, I'd have never asked you to respond to this thread. I appreciate your input (bunches), but I just want you to know that I wasn't trying to be heartless.

 

[Marquis]

This is very true.

Yes, it is.

She's a brainy one, that Netz.

 

[Marquis]

After reading this thread, I suddenly feel terrible about myself and like a total fucking interloper in someone else's life.

I'm not sure what's making you feel this way, but you're not dealing with children here. These people all have the same ability to choose that you do and if you weren't wanted, you'd know it.

I'm sorry, but the old "but I was here first!" works for lines at the grocery store, not with human beings. People have a right to choose who they want to be with!

 

[BiBunny]

I'm not sure what's making you feel this way, but you're not dealing with children here. These people all have the same ability to choose that you do and if you weren't wanted, you'd know it.

I'm sorry, but the old "but I was here first!" works for lines at the grocery store, not with human beings. People have a right to choose who they want to be with!

Thank you. I'm just grumpy 'cause I didn't sleep well last night (B. snores ungodly loud), and some of the posts got to me for a minute. I especially like the bolded part.

 

[Netzach]

BiBunny - what he said.

And you've got to be cautious, realistic, and generous with her, and she with you. You need to listen to what's being said and question it, and you need to be able to sit down *un* emotionally with these people. If you're not ready to do that, and to be a little objective, *all three of you* you may make calls and decisions based on one person's fantasy being overlayed onto the other one or two.

I remember the first time H was out here haha, we all wanted him to move in.

About a month later all three of us were in agreement that if he moved to Chicago or Mpls it would be cool, but never to move "in".

You need to give yourself a little while to be able to see things with that other set of eyes, that's all.

 

[BiBunny]

BiBunny - what he said.

And you've got to be cautious, realistic, and generous with her, and she with you. You need to listen to what's being said and question it, and you need to be able to sit down *un* emotionally with these people. If you're not ready to do that, and to be a little objective, *all three of you* you may make calls and decisions based on one person's fantasy being overlayed onto the other one or two.

I remember the first time H was out here haha, we all wanted him to move in.

About a month later all three of us were in agreement that if he moved to Chicago or Mpls it would be cool, but never to move "in".

You need to give yourself a little while to be able to see things with that other set of eyes, that's all.

That sounds about right to me. After I spoke with her Tuesday evening, I haven't pushed it anymore. When everyone's ready, we'll all sit down and talk. I don't think everyone's ready yet (me included). I think if no one pushes it, the time will come.