yowser
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Unfortunately, the first thought that flashed into my mind was Frank Zappa's 'Sheik Yerbouti'.
Turn rape into love?
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ChloeTzang
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IvanPetrovich
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Good boy.Woof woof woof. Woof.
MediocreAuthor
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The problem, Tilan, is that I've found ravishment (the conceptual notion, not the act
) appealing long before I discovered this website. Writing about it has not increased my attraction to the concept, nor has it decreased my revulsion to the genuine act.Part of me wishes that you would spend as much time on horror movie forums deriding the evils of real life murder, although any time you spent there would rob us of your sparkling presence here, so ultimately I hope don't leave for too long
Just wait until you hear about this crazy thing called "gay rape."
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There really is no topic of discussion so instantly polarizing as sexual assault.
I won’t comment on the motives behind it, because they are in context immaterial. More important is that it is a traumatic, horrible event for the victim. Rape is in real life a despicable crime. Paint that on the wall in 8” letters so nobody forgets it.
I understand those who hotly condemn fictional nonconsent. Truly. To say that it puts a favourable spin on an abhorrent act is a not-unreasonable stance and from that falls an equally not-unreasonable call for it to be censored.
There is however a curious, almost paradoxical thing about fictional depictions of forced sex. It would be much easier to condemn were such read only by creepy old men and unwashed basement neckbeards.
Yet that is hardly the case. As has been noted, the majority of women surveyed in a number of studies - the majority, not just a couple of outliers - admit that they fantasize or have fantasized at one time or another of being taken against their will. Seriously - it’s between 50-60% of those surveyed, in multiple surveys. Google it. That’s not a statistical blip by one badly-supervised grad student.
And, critically, it hard to believe that those fantasizing women want to actually be subjected to the reality, nor that they somehow condone real rape because of their personal imaginary activity.
It’s a fantasy, something removed from reality. They understand the difference.
Such a strong interest from a group of presumably intelligent people who are arguably themselves the most likely victims of sexual assault IMHO seriously undercuts the argument that ‘ravishment fantasy’ is just a very sick, very deplorable male kink that should be utterly banned for the good of us all.
Putting it another way, yes, rape is horrible in reality, but as a very, very popular personal fantasy among women too, it is harder to condemn ex cathedra all fictional stories including it.
I won’t comment on the motives behind it, because they are in context immaterial. More important is that it is a traumatic, horrible event for the victim. Rape is in real life a despicable crime. Paint that on the wall in 8” letters so nobody forgets it.
I understand those who hotly condemn fictional nonconsent. Truly. To say that it puts a favourable spin on an abhorrent act is a not-unreasonable stance and from that falls an equally not-unreasonable call for it to be censored.
There is however a curious, almost paradoxical thing about fictional depictions of forced sex. It would be much easier to condemn were such read only by creepy old men and unwashed basement neckbeards.
Yet that is hardly the case. As has been noted, the majority of women surveyed in a number of studies - the majority, not just a couple of outliers - admit that they fantasize or have fantasized at one time or another of being taken against their will. Seriously - it’s between 50-60% of those surveyed, in multiple surveys. Google it. That’s not a statistical blip by one badly-supervised grad student.
And, critically, it hard to believe that those fantasizing women want to actually be subjected to the reality, nor that they somehow condone real rape because of their personal imaginary activity.
It’s a fantasy, something removed from reality. They understand the difference.
Such a strong interest from a group of presumably intelligent people who are arguably themselves the most likely victims of sexual assault IMHO seriously undercuts the argument that ‘ravishment fantasy’ is just a very sick, very deplorable male kink that should be utterly banned for the good of us all.
Putting it another way, yes, rape is horrible in reality, but as a very, very popular personal fantasy among women too, it is harder to condemn ex cathedra all fictional stories including it.
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yowser
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Well said.
My only contribution to the discussion is revealing thoughts about buying a gun and shooting my boss. Or an annoying colleague.
No, maybe a knife? I would never torture anyone, would I?
Perhaps writing about it might be better. Such awful thoughts.
MediocreAuthor
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The biggest challenge with sarcasm/trolling online is that it is incredibly difficult to convey successfully through text.
That's said, I often find your annoying antics hilarious, and while you are basically a plague on this forum, I get a stupid chuckle out of much of your tomfoolery, so I am glad you're here being a pest.
Now be gone with you, you rascally scamp!
-swats at you with an oversized cartoon broom-
AwkwardlySet
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I am not sure that the fact that non-con sex is a prominent female fantasy makes that much difference. What matters is that it is not only a female fantasy. There are still plenty of those who fantasize about doing it to another person. I can guarantee that if you ask underage teenagers if they would love to engage in sexual activities before their 18th birthday, you will get an almost unanimous and ecstatic "yes please!" As a wild guess, I can bet most of them would even prefer sex with an adult rather than sex with someone of their own age. So, using the logic you are kind of hinting at, that means we can safely write stories that contain sex with underage teenagers, right? I mean, teenagers themselves (the victims in this case) love those fantasies, so where is the harm?
I don't know about your general stance about this TP, so this might not be directed at you at all, but I don't understand how so many people on this board can just separate some fantasies as OK, while some others are a big NO. I am talking here only about fantasies that are actual crimes if committed in real life (rape, underage, snuff...)
Simon's position is something I can absolutely understand, as it is consistent and principled, even if I don't agree with it (in great part due to the existence of some actual scientific evidence), yet this "rape is fine because it is all just a fantasy, but the rest isn't" position is just something that leaves me perplexed about the thought process of those people.
alohadave
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Certain people here are trolling and stirring shit. And everyone else responds to it and keeps the trolls going.
MediocreAuthor
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Okay, so Tilan and Simon both have consistent, understandable stances on either side of the spectrum, while I hold an arguably hypocritical position somewhere in the middle.
Now I am curious, do you also reject horror stories with the same gusto as sexual - horror stories?
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djrip
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Underage is not inherently problematic. Memoir will include underage sexual thoughts, at least, and likely more, if the memoirist is honest and comprehensive. Nothing that every individual has experienced can truly be immoral to explore in writing, in my view. And underage with adult is like non-con -- reprehensible in RL, but fiction is fiction. Lolita is important literature. But none of that matters here; what matters here is the rules that exist here.
AwkwardlySet
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Oh, definitely. Yet this topic is old and recurring, and I am almost certain there are people who are vehement about underage not being allowed, while just shrugging or even speaking in favor of non-con.
AwkwardlySet
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I didn't say anything about you specifically. I know you write non-con, but I have no idea where you stand about other stuff
If you recognized yourself as the one that fits the description, then all right, I guess.About horror sexual stories... I must say I am not really familiar with that theme and its repercussions. I mean are we talking about fictional creatures doing something to humans or other fictional creatures? I see no real harm there in general. It is not like someone can become an actual vampire or werewolf in real life. I guess people could actually imagine they were such a creature and try to suck the blood of their victims or something, but I doubt there is a significant number of such crimes. Maybe some people would see even such stories as an incentive toward violent crimes, but it is all a question of statistical significance. I admit I am completely out of my depth there, but I do think that such stories are nowhere near as important in the sense of repercussions to real life as rape stories.
djrip
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Horror includes slashers. Sorority House Massacre 7. Texas Chainsaw Massacre, to cite a real one. Seven and other serial killer thrillers. Man Bites Dog, which follows a serial killer around like a reality show.I didn't say anything about you specifically. I know you write non-con, but I have no idea where you stand about other stuff
About horror sexual stories... I must say I am not really familiar with that theme and its repercussions. I mean are we talking about fictional creatures doing something to humans or other fictional creatures? I see no real harm there in general. It is not like someone can become an actual vampire or werewolf in real life. I guess people could actually imagine they were such a creature and try to suck the blood of their victims or something, but I doubt there is a significant number of such crimes. Maybe some people would see even such stories as an incentive toward violent crimes, but it is all a question of statistical significance. I admit I am completely out of my depth there, but I do think that such stories are nowhere near as important in the sense of repercussions to real life as rape stories.
MediocreAuthor
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I didn't think that you were talking about me specifically. I was just saying that since obviously I write noncon, (and yet I hate underage, bestiality, etc) my feelings about censorship are debatably contradictory.I didn't say anything about you specifically. I know you write non-con, but I have no idea where you stand about other stuff
About horror sexual stories... I must say I am not really familiar with that theme and its repercussions. I mean are we talking about fictional creatures doing something to humans or other fictional creatures? I see no real harm there in general. It is not like someone can become an actual vampire or werewolf in real life. I guess people could actually imagine they were such a creature and try to suck the blood of their victims or something, but I doubt there is a significant number of such crimes. Maybe some people would see even such stories as an incentive toward violent crimes, but it is all a question of statistical significance. I admit I am completely out of my depth there, but I do think that such stories are nowhere near as important in the sense of repercussions to real life as rape stories.
But let me clarify what I meant by "sexual - horror stories" because I was unclear.
I wasn't referring to erotic horror. I was referring to a story where a man murders people as a "horror story" (because murder is horrific), and a story where a man rapes people as "rape - horror story" (because rape is horrific).
I apologize, because I was unclear. I meant, "Do you find horror stories about murder as awful as stories about rape?"
AwkwardlySet
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I want to emphasize that I do not in any way judge you for having forced sex/rape fantasies, and if the only readers of those stories were women then all this discussion would be void. It is OK to have such fantasies, it is only the question of making those fantasies publicly available to those who would see them as an incentive to put those fantasies into reality. If in the future some solid research emerges stating that there is no statistically significant correlation between publicly available sexual rape fantasies and those crimes actually being committed in real life, I would happily change my stance.
AwkwardlySet
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To answer both you and djrip, we were kinda focusing on sexual crimes. In one post Simon and I touched on the subject of violent crimes unrelated to sex, but it opens up a whole new dimension of things that need to be considered. Djrip listed some movies, and even if I did hear about a few of them, I haven't seen any of those, so I can't give any insight. Were there any sexually fueled murders in those movies? Once again, I think we limited our discussion to sexual crimes in this thread.
AwkwardlySet
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They do matter in the sense of which stories we can publish, but they do not matter in the sense of a general discussion. I mean, we aren't really limited by Laurel's own moral stances and red lines, are we? At least not in the sense of the philosophical discussion we are having here, because that is what this is to me. That is why I have always spoken against shaming non-con authors on this board. They are writing only what they are allowed to write, after all. The pressure should only be directed towards Lit's policy-makers; that is my stance at least.
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AS, my position with respect to rape is painted on the wall in 8” letters, ‘cause I just knew somebody wouldn’t accept my simply saying it…
I am in agreement with SD’s position. Freedom of speech of course must have limits. One cannot shout “Fire!” in a crowded theatre, for instance. But such limits need to be by exception, rare and based on evidence, not personal opinions or tastes. There are a lot of things here I find personally distasteful, even disgusting, but it’s not my place to criticize. Again, f a n t a s y.
As to underage erotica, 18 is a fairly arbitrary number, but it is Lit policy and that’s enough reason. If Laurel ever drops that to (picking a number at random) 16 years old, that’s fine, too. It’s her site. In any case, what a 14-year-old may or may not be fantasizing about is immaterial - they’re not the adult target audience for Literotica.
My point is that ravishment is a very common adult fantasy, one I gather is shared by both sexes, specifically including the ‘usually ravished’ one. And that deprives it’s foes of what otherwise might have been a useful argument.
I personally suspect that one will find very, very few readers here who take such stories as an encouragement for real sexual asssault, any more than readers of the wildly-popular brother-sister-consensual-incest theme take such tales as encouragement to sexually assault small children or those who enjoy stories about safe, sane and consensual BDSM take those yarns as urging the use of horsewhips and hot pokers on kidnap victims. I’m open to being shown scientific evidence to the contrary of course.
In the meantime, 8” letters.
Cheers.
I am in agreement with SD’s position. Freedom of speech of course must have limits. One cannot shout “Fire!” in a crowded theatre, for instance. But such limits need to be by exception, rare and based on evidence, not personal opinions or tastes. There are a lot of things here I find personally distasteful, even disgusting, but it’s not my place to criticize. Again, f a n t a s y.
As to underage erotica, 18 is a fairly arbitrary number, but it is Lit policy and that’s enough reason. If Laurel ever drops that to (picking a number at random) 16 years old, that’s fine, too. It’s her site. In any case, what a 14-year-old may or may not be fantasizing about is immaterial - they’re not the adult target audience for Literotica.
My point is that ravishment is a very common adult fantasy, one I gather is shared by both sexes, specifically including the ‘usually ravished’ one. And that deprives it’s foes of what otherwise might have been a useful argument.
I personally suspect that one will find very, very few readers here who take such stories as an encouragement for real sexual asssault, any more than readers of the wildly-popular brother-sister-consensual-incest theme take such tales as encouragement to sexually assault small children or those who enjoy stories about safe, sane and consensual BDSM take those yarns as urging the use of horsewhips and hot pokers on kidnap victims. I’m open to being shown scientific evidence to the contrary of course.
In the meantime, 8” letters.
Cheers.
MediocreAuthor
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I'll say one last thing, and then probably bow out of this discussion, because we all knew going in that it was largely pointless.
Those of you who hate noncon fantasies, do so because you hate rape. That makes me happy. I hate rape too.
We will probably never see eye to eye, but I love the fact that your hatred for real world atrocities is so strong that it bleeds over into your view of fantasies as well. That is nothing to be ashamed of. I love you all for it.
I've said in the past that my spouse has no particular affinity for noncon, and I like that just fine.
Maybe one day, if I am ever convinced that there is a real world correlation between fantasy and reality, I'll stop writing. Until then, thank you for your choice to hate rape so much that you can't even stand it in pretend.
Those of you who hate noncon fantasies, do so because you hate rape. That makes me happy. I hate rape too.
We will probably never see eye to eye, but I love the fact that your hatred for real world atrocities is so strong that it bleeds over into your view of fantasies as well. That is nothing to be ashamed of. I love you all for it.
I've said in the past that my spouse has no particular affinity for noncon, and I like that just fine.
Maybe one day, if I am ever convinced that there is a real world correlation between fantasy and reality, I'll stop writing. Until then, thank you for your choice to hate rape so much that you can't even stand it in pretend.
AwkwardlySet
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That is something I can absolutely agree with. In one of my many posts in this thread, I said that scientific evidence should make us think about where our boundaries lie, at least. Even before Xerxes posted that link, I had listened to some debates and saw some evidence being presented that, as they claim, points to a certain correlation between sexual fantasies and sex crimes. In general, I am always inclined towards liberties, but since minors and women are something I see as vulnerable categories, I thought that in this case, we should maybe err towards caution, especially with the emergence of actual evidence.
To be completely honest, I would be very happy if research showed that there is no correlation whatsoever. I love the general freedom of fiction, and people can simply avoid reading the themes they dislike.
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And yet the polarization began on Page 1, so perhaps yes.
SimonDoom
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This suggests that polarization causes people to be silent, which is not true in my experience.
SimonDoom
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From Monty Python's Argument Sketch:
M: An argument is a connected series of statements intended to establish a proposition.
O: No it isn't!
M: Yes it is! 'tisn't just contradiction.
O: Look, if I argue with you, I must take up a contrary position.
M: Yes but it isn't just saying 'no it isn't'.
O: Yes it is!
M: No it isn't!
O: Yes it is!
M: No it isn't!
O: Yes it is!
M: No it ISN'T! Argument is an intellectual process. Contradiction is just the automatic gainsaying of anything the other person says.
O: It is NOT!
M: It is!
O: Not at all!
M: It is!
(The Arguer hits a bell on his desk and stops.)
O: Thank you, that's it.
M: (stunned) What?
O: That's it. Good morning.
M: But I was just getting interested!
O: I'm sorry, the five minutes is up.
M: An argument is a connected series of statements intended to establish a proposition.
O: No it isn't!
M: Yes it is! 'tisn't just contradiction.
O: Look, if I argue with you, I must take up a contrary position.
M: Yes but it isn't just saying 'no it isn't'.
O: Yes it is!
M: No it isn't!
O: Yes it is!
M: No it isn't!
O: Yes it is!
M: No it ISN'T! Argument is an intellectual process. Contradiction is just the automatic gainsaying of anything the other person says.
O: It is NOT!
M: It is!
O: Not at all!
M: It is!
(The Arguer hits a bell on his desk and stops.)
O: Thank you, that's it.
M: (stunned) What?
O: That's it. Good morning.
M: But I was just getting interested!
O: I'm sorry, the five minutes is up.
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