Tuition Fees

[ishtat]

On a recent visit to the US I was not surprised to hear my hosts complain about the college fees for their children, but I was surprised to hear that they were unaware that almost every west European nation provides both undergraduate and post graduate education with the teaching entirely in English. Over 500 European institutions offer masters degrees taught in English in at least a dozen different countries.

Would you send your kids overseas to college? Do you have any perception of advantages /disadvantages

And then there's Singapore, India Australia and so on.

 

[oggbashan]

And not just in English. In American English.

There are branches of US universities in many European cities. Leiden has so many US students that the cafes seem to be monolingual in American.

 

[4glory6]

It's a good question and probably a good theory (although it would need to be costed out), but I had trouble sending my daughter away as far as across town.

 

[Cruel2BKind]

Creature of habit.

I didn't even want to go to college out of state.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

If college was worth much its graduates would prosper.

 

[Firebrain]

Also, many European unis charge ridiculous fees for "international" students. Add in travel and cost of living, and it probably isn't much better.

 

[LettersFromTatyana]

Also, many European unis charge ridiculous fees for "international" students. Add in travel and cost of living, and it probably isn't much better.

Not to mention the current exchange rates and the fact that, depending on the country you move to, you might not be able to get a part-time job to help pay your expenses. McGill is probably still cheaper for US students (it was when I looked at schools), and the exchange rate and travel expenses are much lower than they are for European schools. But hauling you and your stuff from, say, Colorado to England twice a year? Ouch!

Money aside, though, there are two additional problems.

First, do you want your kids to make a permanent move? Most of my friends that did the international university thing stayed abroad, often because they met someone. Three cheers for love and all, but it means far less long-term contact than, say, sending your kid a few states over.

Second, employers can be insular in their knowledge of higher education. For international schools, they will probably know Oxford and Cambridge, maybe a few more, but not much beyond that. How can they judge grades from, say, Cardiff? Or even know if it's a decent school? It would require a lot of effort to do the research for just one applicant. For a rational employer, it might be best just to move on to the next applicant.

This would be a problem not only as a recent grad, but also for someone coming home in the summer and looking for an internship (and let's not even think about how traditional breaks might not line up). And since your job out of college can be based in an internship, you might be putting yourself in a hole.

(I should note that I don't think US employers are alone in this, and that I don't necessarily think it should be expected for them to keep track of the reputations of thousands of colleges and universities)

 

[Stella_Omega]

They might have a better chance of getting a job elsewhere anyway. Possibly, from an American corp that's sending it's work overseas.

 

[R. Richard]

When I went to school, there was a Chinese student in some of my classes. He had a degree from a university in China (Ho Lee Cao?) Anyhow, no one had ever heard of the school (Won Hung Lo?) and no one wrote/read Chinese. Thus, the graduate went back as a freshman again. He was very tough to compete against.

 

[oggbashan]

American University in Leiden, Netherlands.

Sorry. That one is dated.

Current link

 

[estragon]

Looked briefly at American University in Paris years ago for my younger daughter (who speaks French well, far better than I). No cheaper than the US, bar the need for travel back and forth from the US, which put the place out of the question.

 

[Xelebes]

(I should note that I don't think US employers are alone in this, and that I don't necessarily think it should be expected for them to keep track of the reputations of thousands of colleges and universities)

Very true. I don't know if my bosses would discern much difference between CalTech and NAIT.

 

[PayDay]

No one is making anyone go to college.

No one is making anyone choose to pay $20k+ a year.

You don't have to travel, or pay anyone, to learn something new.

Every job interview I have been involved in, in any way, has taken experience over education, regardless of where the education was obtained.

College education is only worthwhile for entry level positions, or promotions for the already employed.

International education is good for someone in an international field, like say, a foreign language, or archaeology.

What could foreign colleges possibly offer to an American that an American college would not (other than cheaper tuition and socialistic ideals)? I would think they would be sub-par especially in technology, medicine, or finace/business fields.

Why else would they teach 'entirely in English' ?

 

[oggbashan]

...

What could foreign colleges possibly offer to an American that an American college would not (other than cheaper tuition and socialistic ideals)? I would think they would be sub-par especially in technology, medicine, or finace/business fields.

Why else would they teach 'entirely in English' ?

1. Some foreign colleges/universities are as good as if not better than many US ones in particular disciplines. Not all US colleges are the best in the world.

2. Some foreign colleges are in English speaking countries.

3. Some 'foreign' colleges in countries that do not have English as a native language are actually parts of US colleges.

4. Some foreign colleges offer a year long course in conjunction with a US partner so the student can get a US degree with international experience.

5. In some disciplines, teaching 'entirely in English' is also for the benefit of the locals if the best research and job opportunities are in English-speaking organisations.

6. They want the money. Why not? Most US institutions appreciate the fees students pay.

 

[LettersFromTatyana]

Every job interview I have been involved in, in any way, has taken experience over education, regardless of where the education was obtained.

College education is only worthwhile for entry level positions, or promotions for the already employed.

So . . . it's necessary for your typical 18yo, who probably has limited experience and might not have a job to be promoted from?

What could foreign colleges possibly offer to an American that an American college would not (other than cheaper tuition and socialistic ideals)? I would think they would be sub-par especially in technology, medicine, or finace/business fields.

Absolutely. For example, Germany is notorious for producing terrible engineers. Glaxo, Novartis, and Bayer? Pfft. Minor, minor players in bio-pharma, so clearly, the universities in those countries are churning out crap. And obviously, no banking of any sort takes place in London or Hong Kong.

I've already said I don't think it makes much sense on a cost-basis to go abroad (with several exceptions), but come on. I don't know how you can make such ridiculous and offensive blanket statements about foreign universities.

(And really? Socialistic ideals? Because obviously, professors have nothing better to do with their time than to indoctrinate teenagers for shits and giggles?)

Why else would they teach 'entirely in English' ?

Because English is, for better or worse, the international language of science and business? A foreign university teaching students in English is preparing those students for an international career, which is what careers in at least two of the three areas you mentioned--technology and finance/business--increasingly are.

 

[PayDay]

Because English is, for better or worse, the international language of science and business? A foreign university teaching students in English is preparing those students for an international career, which is what careers in at least two of the three areas you mentioned--technology and finance/business--increasingly are.

...I wonder why that is.

 

[oggbashan]

...I wonder why that is.

Perhaps because the US Dollar is the medium for international trade?

Whether it will continue to be? I'm not sure.

If OPEC were to decide it would be better if oil is priced in Chinese currency then the Dollar would take a big hit.

 

[PayDay]

Perhaps because the US Dollar is the medium for international trade?

The answer as to 'why that is' is still the same.

 

[R. Richard]

No one is making anyone go to college.

No one is making anyone choose to pay $20k+ a year.

You don't have to travel, or pay anyone, to learn something new.

Every job interview I have been involved in, in any way, has taken experience over education, regardless of where the education was obtained.

College education is only worthwhile for entry level positions, or promotions for the already employed.

I don't know what you do for a living. When I was a computer programmer, they wouldn't even interview anyone who didn't have a college education. Early on, there were a few programmers who had started college and worked as programmers, for their college. Some of them did manage to get jobs, despite the lack of a college deree. However, promotion and raises were pretty much based upon a college degree, a Masters degree if a programmer wanted to maybe advance into management at some point in time.
In one case, a very talented programmer was forced to obtain a college degree, to continue to be employed. He had some work expoeriencem, as a farm child. He then found that the soonest degree that he could obtain was in the poultry management subdivision of animal husbandry. (No, I have no idea why anyone would want to be the husband of a farm animal.) The type of degree wasn't all that important, just the piece of paper. (Why training chickens to lay eggs is important to a programmer, I don't know.)

 

[Cruel2BKind]

No one is making anyone go to college.

No one is making anyone choose to pay $20k+ a year.

You don't have to travel, or pay anyone, to learn something new.

GREAT!

You obviously know where I can get a job with no experience and no training that DOESN'T involve the fast-food industry. So spill.

 

[damppanties]

<snip> the poultry management subdivision of animal husbandry. (No, I have no idea why anyone would want to be the husband of a farm animal.)

BWAH.

In response to the topic of the thread, I know a lot of people who go abroad to study medicine in particular. It takes ridiculously long (in terms of years) in America to get about the same degrees in other countries and if you can get the education then pass the USMLE, then it saves time (and a huge amount of money in most cases too).

 

[BONNIEBREA]

The other solution is public universities and colleges in the US.

Tuition and fees have been creeping up at most publics in recent years, but they are still greatly less expensive than private schools. And academic studies that look at this kind of thing can't find any difference in academic ability or employment potential between graduates of publics and privates.

I have a son who is now attending a public university, attending fall and spring semester and the cost is well under 10K a year. He's living at home and paying in-state tuition and fees, which saves a great deal of expense.

And the school he attends is relatively small (several thousand undergrads), so he is getting a great learning experience with the credentialed professors who develop the courses of instruction in the classroom and immediately available outside the classroom. I cringe when I think of him going to a private like Harvard or Yale or Brown where as an undergradute in lower division classes he'd be sitting in a lecture hall with 800 other undergrads getting lectured at by some teaching assistant's teaching assistant

 

[Cruel2BKind]

The other solution is public universities and colleges in the US.

Tuition and fees have been creeping up at most publics in recent years, but they are still greatly less expensive than private schools. And academic studies that look at this kind of thing can't find any difference in academic ability or employment potential between graduates of publics and privates.

I have a son who is now attending a public university, attending fall and spring semester and the cost is well under 10K a year. He's living at home and paying in-state tuition and fees, which saves a great deal of expense.

And the school he attends is relatively small (several thousand undergrads), so he is getting a great learning experience with the credentialed professors who develop the courses of instruction in the classroom and immediately available outside the classroom. I cringe when I think of him going to a private like Harvard or Yale or Brown where as an undergradute in lower division classes he'd be sitting in a lecture hall with 800 other undergrads getting lectured at by some teaching assistant's teaching assistant

That's the problem though. I mean, Great for your son... But I go to a public college and it's about 16k a year. Granted, I live on campus and I have a meal plan, which is part of it, but this was still one of the cheapest colleges we could find. Gustavus was 40k a year, and St. Catherine's was 60K

Those were the private colleges that I applied to. All of the public and state schools were under 30k, and some not by much.

Another problem is that they offer less aid now than they did. College prices are rising (on average) 8% a year like clockwork. Exponential growth, and less aid.

My mother made it through Augsberg (a private college) by working part time and taking government aid. When she was finished, she had two thousand in debt. Even adjusting for inflation, and even with my parents' help, and EVEN in a state school, I will get out of college with at least ten times more debt.

When we filled out the FAFSA, they looked at our assets and refused to give me a cent in aid because they predicted that my family would be able to pay 40k a year.

Maybe one year. If we sold our house, and our cars, and if me and my sister went into prostitution.

It's bullshit. And something needs to be changed.

 

[LettersFromTatyana]

But a lot of private schools do offer aid, lots of it!

The public university for the state I grew up in? Tuition is $13k a year, and the average student graduates with over $30k of debt. The private school I went to? Tuition is almost $40k (and I think that excludes room and board of about $12k), and the average student graduates with less than $13k in debt.

How? The average student gets $35k in grants per year from the college (not loans--they don't give loans), and grants are given up to a family income of something like $150k a year.

So . . . you get in (need-blind admissions), you'll get a sweet ride. And what you'll get is all spelled out on their website.

This graph really helps explain this weird phenomenon, I think:

http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/...tudent-debt-at-colleges-and-universities.html

 

[Cruel2BKind]

But a lot of private schools do offer aid, lots of it!

The public university for the state I grew up in? Tuition is $13k a year, and the average student graduates with over $30k of debt. The private school I went to? Tuition is almost $40k (and I think that excludes room and board of about $12k), and the average student graduates with less than $13k in debt.

How? The average student gets $35k in grants per year from the college (not loans--they don't give loans), and grants are given up to a family income of something like $150k a year.

So . . . you get in (need-blind admissions), you'll get a sweet ride. And what you'll get is all spelled out on their website.

This graph really helps explain this weird phenomenon, I think:

http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/...tudent-debt-at-colleges-and-universities.html

Hehe... I guess I left out one integral piece of information.

My GPA in high school was 2.67. The only reason I got accepted into any colleges at all was because of a fairly decent ACT score. 27.

I checked to see if I would apply for grants and scholarships. Not a one.