Trying to write, frustration

[lovecraft68]

The "Kill your darlings" advice is like so much advice established writers put into their "how to" books. It seems they all have to have some sweeping, pithy, memorable advice to give. As others have pointed out, there isn't just one way to write. Yes, some are naturally verbose in draft. But others are naturally terse in draft, using the draft to get the basic plot line down and then filling out and enriching the weaving in review. There's no one road to getting there.

I haven't read Stephen King, but I've done more than read such authors as Tom Clancy and James Michener and they, indeed, were writers who needed to be followed with a hoe and the repeated question, "And what element of the story does this paragraph serve?"

I think-and guessing, no real experience here- that some authors can get to that point people are afraid to edit, especially if the author is not only mega successful, but difficult.

For anyone who read The Mayfair Witches, there is no way anyone is cutting anything Anne Rice writes. Or if they are, I'd hate to see what it is

 

[NOIRTRASH]

Write - just write, even if it seems to be rubbish.

If you have conflicting ideas for a story, write down each idea in a separate document, save, move on to the next and keep going until one of the saved documents inspires you to write more.

If you get a few hundred words down and then get stuck again, switch to another documented idea, and write.

If you come to a complete full stop, shut down the computer and do something else for a few hours - go for a walk, tidy that room you have been going to do for days, bake a cake, kick a ball around...

Then start writing again.

Is the above your advice for rotten singers and other untalented souls. KEEP ON TRUCKIN!

 

[Penuche]

Is the above your advice for rotten singers and other untalented souls. KEEP ON TRUCKIN!

Why not?

Raw talent only gets you so far - an apparently tone deaf singer who does their vocal exercises and gradually learns how to listen and adjust their singing may end up sounding better than somebody with a great voice who neither practised nor was coached at all.

 

[sr71plt]

I think-and guessing, no real experience here- that some authors can get to that point people are afraid to edit, especially if the author is not only mega successful, but difficult.

For anyone who read The Mayfair Witches, there is no way anyone is cutting anything Anne Rice writes. Or if they are, I'd hate to see what it is

Tom Clancy famously eschewed editing by the publisher after the success of Patriot Games. I was contracted to try to work with him on a book, and although he pumped me for insider information on locations and tradecraft, he didn't use much of it. He said it was too dull for his readers, and his royalties seemed to bear him out.

James Michener allowed wholesale cutting, but he wanted it to be used in other books (thus Journey was cut out of Alaska, which had gotten too damn long in draft, even for Michener).

 

[sr71plt]

Why not?

Raw talent only gets you so far - an apparently tone deaf singer who does their vocal exercises and gradually learns how to listen and adjust their singing may end up sounding better than somebody with a great voice who neither practised nor was coached at all.

Oh, there's rarely any substance behind James' pithy jabs.

 

[_Lynn_]

You don't read other authors to establish their voice as your own. You read them to find other perspectives--the same reason anyone reads different authors. You might find something you can adapt to a writing project or to life. You might find something you know you want to steer clear of. Social animals learn from others. Why would writing be in isolation?

Every interview I've read, seen or heard with a well-known author includes an admission that they are very prolific readers. You don't hear them admitting to reading how-to-write books, but you do hear them admitting to reading a wide range of books.

Not being a well-known writer, I'll admit to reading a couple of how-to-write books (King and Card). But I can't think of a single bit of advice that I was ever able to incorporate. How-to-write books explain how a particular writer does it. Like how-to-get-rich books. That doesn't mean you can't gain insight into how that writer's mind works and enrich in some way how you interpret their books.

rj

And if that works for a writer, then great, but it might not work for someone else. People are different and their preferences for learning to write (and for writing) will be unique to them.

Also, anyone can claim to be a prolific reader. That doesn't make it true.

 

[rjordan]

King had a few I could see as being practical enough to adopt.

But that "kill your darlings' suggestion-as in cut things out when you edit- makes me laugh....you read his stuff? He has not killed a darling in years, for proof see insomnia, the cure for said disease.

That advice predates King by quite a bit. Faulkner used the term "kill your darlings" first. And Boswell said essentially the same thing and he was quoting someone earlier.

"...where ever you meet with a passage which you think is particularly fine, strike it out."

I had that quote taped to my typewriter when I first started writing as a profession in 1971. It saves a lot of embarrassment later when readers don't react to your wonderful wit and wisdom the way you expect. It's advice that wouldn't hurt anyone on this forum when we post.

But I agree. The two I've read, Stephen King and Orson Scott Card, are full of advice, but they often can't follow it themselves. Advice like that isn't absolute. It's relative. If it works for you, do it. If it doesn't, don't.

rj

 

[sr71plt]

Faulkner could have spent a bit more time clarifying his darlings in his writing.

 

[TamLin01]

As several people have said already, even if you think it's bad, just write it anyway. Of COURSE you think your first story is bad. You're probably even right. It's your first story, after all. If writing was easy, and if everyone could do it well on the first try, nobody would ever care.

 

[OliviaM]

You don't read other authors to establish their voice as your own. You read them to find other perspectives--the same reason anyone reads different authors. You might find something you can adapt to a writing project or to life. You might find something you know you want to steer clear of. Social animals learn from others. Why would writing be in isolation?

Every interview I've read, seen or heard with a well-known author includes an admission that they are very prolific readers. You don't hear them admitting to reading how-to-write books, but you do hear them admitting to reading a wide range of books.

Not being a well-known writer, I'll admit to reading a couple of how-to-write books (King and Card). But I can't think of a single bit of advice that I was ever able to incorporate. How-to-write books explain how a particular writer does it. Like how-to-get-rich books. That doesn't mean you can't gain insight into how that writer's mind works and enrich in some way how you interpret their books.

rj

What this person said.

That's what I was trying to get at. I don't mean someone should try to emulate other authors. But if your goal is to learn, then you can learn from others who have been successful at what you're trying to do. You can learn to paint with just a how-to book and a paintbrush, but successful artists also study other painters, even if they don't copy them.

 

[NOIRTRASH]

What this person said.

That's what I was trying to get at. I don't mean someone should try to emulate other authors. But if your goal is to learn, then you can learn from others who have been successful at what you're trying to do. You can learn to paint with just a how-to book and a paintbrush, but successful artists also study other painters, even if they don't copy them.

I learned English as a child. I spring from celebrities of the English language, including competent published writers and real authorities. But my English had a Southern patina New England pedagogues found offensive, and all of us children were herded into remedial English classes to learn to speak correctly and lose our native tongue. No problemo, us Johnsons are language savants who master languages about as quickly as LIT gals master the Kama Sutra. It took me all of two classes to master Morse Code.

But learn right:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qNJdWzCiBfo

AND this
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QATICdf7b-0

 

[oggbashan]

Is the above your advice for rotten singers and other untalented souls. KEEP ON TRUCKIN!

Singing requires some basic talent but even a poor singer can be trained to be better.

Writing can be taught, and learned. Talent is useful but competence as a writer is possible without talent.

 

[Hard_Rom]

Some good tips here
http://www.wikihow.com/Write-a-Short-Story

I like a tip on this thread which said start small. Work you way up. A short story is approx. 10,000 words. Not all that much.

A tip on the link above is to read a lot. Learn from published authors.

I like historical stories. They must be heavily researched to get facts right. But any character needs development. Come up with a very viable life for your characters.

The RP and SRP threads here are very good for getting writing practice. A good co-writer can push and pull you along. Sometimes a crap co-writer will impel you to show them how it is done properly.

Make sure your grammar and spelling are correct. Run on sentences become nonsensical quickly.

The sex scenes are secondary. You can write an erotic story without a lot of time spent on the details of sex. It's a relatively simple act in itself and can only be described so many ways.

Find a picture on the internet which is a good inspiration and write a short description of the events taking place. Then flesh it out with some character details. Again make sure grammar and spelling are good.

I'm sure somewhere here on this site are hints and tips on good sentence structure. Try limit paragraphs to 4-5 sentences.

http://www.wikihow.com/Write-a-Paragraph

 

[sr71plt]

Singing requires some basic talent but even a poor singer can be trained to be better.

Writing can be taught, and learned. Talent is useful but competence as a writer is possible without talent.

And you can always start by learning grammar and basic story structure--it doesn't take talent to accomplish that, mainly just time, patience, and effort (which many don't want to bother to invest in the enterprise). Just having done that puts you above the average writer in a realm like Literotica.

 

[rjordan]

What this person said.

That's what I was trying to get at. I don't mean someone should try to emulate other authors. But if your goal is to learn, then you can learn from others who have been successful at what you're trying to do. You can learn to paint with just a how-to book and a paintbrush, but successful artists also study other painters, even if they don't copy them.

There is a LONG tradition of painters copying every detail of the work of masters. Every color, practically every brush stroke. There are stories of famous painters spending weeks in the Louvre reproducing copies of the masters. They weren't planning a career of copying the masters. They were discovering how it had been done by the masters.

Thomas Kinkade, the Painter of Light, did it. He spent weeks in Motel 6's studying the artwork on the walls.

rj

 

[sr71plt]

Some painters, not all. Which is sort of the point. And Kinkade painted insipid schlock--again and again and again. Repeating himself again and again and again, which progressively devalued each previous copy he (and, later, his minions) painted (which led to a buyers' revolt) and makes him quite relevant to your copying note--as well as to some of the parallel writing discussion here on losing freshness and starting to shortchange your readers with your own success.

 

[lovecraft68]

And you can always start by learning grammar and basic story structure--it doesn't take talent to accomplish that, mainly just time, patience, and effort (which many don't want to bother to invest in the enterprise). Just having done that puts you above the average writer in a realm like Literotica.

But a person can learn and master all the technical aspects and....be an absolutely horrible story teller and their stories could suck. All the t's can be crossed and I's dotted, but creativity cannot be taught and there's plenty of stories here with so-so grammar that are enjoyable.

I equate with joke telling. Someone could tell a joke that makes an entire room laugh, but if the person who tries to retell it has no ability to tell a joke, then its a dud.

My wife is the worst joke teller I've ever met

 

[sr71plt]

But a person can learn and master all the technical aspects and....be an absolutely horrible story teller and their stories could suck. All the t's can be crossed and I's dotted, but creativity cannot be taught and there's plenty of stories here with so-so grammar that are enjoyable.

Well, yes. That doesn't counter anything I posted, I don't think.

 

[lovecraft68]

Well, yes. That doesn't counter anything I posted, I don't think.

At the end of your comment you said it would put that person above the average lit writer. My point is that would not always be true. Any type of creative area like writing, painting have a lot of the type of people who don't conform to the norm

Part of being the creative type to an extent.

My thought on it anyway

 

[sr71plt]

But to extend the Kinkade fine art comparison to writing. After selling gallery franchises to sell his original works, Kinkade began producing mass copies of his previous works, hired other painters to paint copies of his works under his name, and began selling directly to buyers on the Internet, all of which undermined his franchise galleries that went into it with the belief they were going to be handling unique art works by Kinkade himself (which "just want something on the wall next to the velvet painting of Elvis and the print of "Jesus at the Door" buyers went ga ga over--although his paintings certainly are more restful and homey).

The upshot is that the gallery owners sued the pants off him and after they lost the suits because their contracts with him didn't specify he couldn't flood the market directly with knockoffs mostly painted by others, they all went out of business. And the value of the artwork tanked. (They, of course, came back up a bit when he died--but not much because his minions now continue to flood the market with the same "home sweet home" themed stuffed.)

There are parallels here on what not to do as a writer.

 

[sr71plt]

At the end of your comment you said it would put that person above the average lit writer. My point is that would not always be true. Any type of creative area like writing, painting have a lot of the type of people who don't conform to the norm

Part of being the creative type to an extent.

My thought on it anyway

Yeah, I believe that good presentation--knowledge of grammar and story structure--automatically puts someone at Literotica in the the top half story quality wise. I'll stick with that.

 

[hadruprider]

Thanks

Thanks very much everyone for the helpful comments and suggestions.
I thought I might get one or two, now I see there are 45!
It seems like a supportive community here.

 

[JLCC]

I started writing for GFs, intending to inspire the horny. Those stories mostly never saw the light of day beyond our own eyes.

After finding one erotuca site, I did post one to somewhat favourable reviews. Then I found Lit can't remember how, and it seemed a little more upmarket.

I wrote and posted a couple of stories and those were ... meh. Modest ratings, not much feedback. I did work with an editor for another couple and she helped a fair bit. That faded and the whole editor pool seemed inaccessible. I carried on, learning from mistakes, making some over again and as far as my interest in writing goes, I've created something passable. My stories have been satisfying to me and a good number of readers.

Just keep at it.

 

[Kellazdriel]

Writing is hard work. It's glamorized by movies and bad English teachers.