Trust

[Netzach]

I'm gonna go out on a limb here.

There's the right healthy proscribed, usually "best practices" way of doing things. It's in the manuals. It's at the conventions. It's in the articles in the library. It keeps people safer, steers them out of trouble.

And then there's reality, and who we are, and what we bring to the table and we're not always perfectly healthy people coming from perfect places of whatnot, and we bring problems, mess, frailties, inconsistencies, lies, weaknesses, and dysfunction with us. I know I do.

And I don't think those things need bar people from doing the nasty. (Or SM. Or whatever.) I don't think that we need to come from this idealized place of honesty and open-ness and clarity in order to express these vital human urges.

I hear people say things like "you must be totally healed before you blah blah blah" and based on my own life I'm like "what planet are you on?"

I think it fucking helps but it comes to the best of us in bursts of illumination and slips away again anyway. Nobody's perfect, most people much less so than they think.

I think Edith is demonstrating knowing the questions. Which is more than most people who have a lot of answers have usually bothered to do.

Yes, ideally, it's not a good plan to play loaded. And people do. People have been always, sometimes the same people who get up in front of convention crowds to tell other people not to play loaded are the most addiction-addled messes of ALL!

In my ideal world, WHEN people play loaded, they let the other people working on them know what they've been doing, and how much. In my ideal world nobody who's actually doing things to other people is loaded, but if they are they're not doing anything complicated (no bondage at all, no breathplay)

I remember being asked by a roomful of gay men I was doing a workshop for (seriously not the demographic I'd been expecting!) "how do you even have that conversation and not come off like an afterschool special with your prospective trick?"

I'm NOT a partier myself, but I'd talked to a guy I knew who is pretty smart about just this thing and just this community and how men actually deal with one another in sexualized environments. I wouldn't present to a crowd I can't understand remotely.

I said, with a little shrug "Been partying?"

These guys treated me like I'd demonstrated the coolest trick in the world. Like I was the David Copperfield of sex - because I understood the planet on which they actually reside versus "sex education" planet.

Even really stupidly simple bondage requires a level of decision making that you have to really know you have, and breathplay, well that's a whole can of worms.

As for emotionally taking responsibility for oneself, I see someone doing that. I don't think there should be a lot of pressure to make this about "pleasing one's Dom" at this point beyond its value as self-exploration (those things being tied together at times) - the transparency might come after a time. I think expecting someone to arrive into an exploration pre-submissive is kind of insane, frankly.

 

[seela]

I don't know, I guess I have no trouble seeing how a submissive could be in control during sex. The D could simply tell the s to get him/her off. After that, physically, the pyl is controlling the situation. Not completely dissimilar to what the working girls do, I believe.

If the submissive one does something the dominant one doesn't like, I'm sure he/she would let them know. Being in control of the situation doesn't need to mean the D is physically active whereas the s just lies about.

I know in my relationship I do a lot more of work (physically) than he does and I'm pretty often in control during sex, if he just wants to get off and doesn't have a particular preference of how it happens. But then again ours is a relationship that isn't just in bedroom, so I also cook, clean, do the laundry and many other things for him and us. That's probably one of the reasons why I always find it difficult to relate to the statements that subs don't need to do anything.

 

[Edith_UK]

I'll be honest with ya, I find the US attitude to drink n drugs really weird. Being wrecked is normal here. Unless your a recovering alchie your gonna be getting pissed after work on a Friday, and I'll bet ya money people drink at bdsm parties n clubs here. No one would GO otherwise Similar with drugs if your youngish.

But I like your attitude about perfection Netzach. Probably better just to have a 'not *really* pissed or fucked' rule. You don't wanna be tied up when your Dom falls asleep cos he's shitfaced Mind you I bet bdsm is fun on some drugs.

 

[Edith_UK]

The notion that a sub taking control is the sub's fault always leaves me scratching my head.

It's absolutely true that deference attracts me, motivates me, turns me on, etc. But if I'm fucking or playing with someone and let her get control of the proceedings, what would that make me? I'll tell you what I think - it would make me an ineffectual D.

If the D is in control, then he/she is responsible for maintaining that control. Blaming the s for taking control is just lame.

Way I saw it before the other night was this: the power to control the interaction hangs there to be taken by either party. When I'm working I use a whole lot of tricks to make sure ive got control (but he THINKS he has ).

For example, I get paid first, I might suggest a shower, I'll let him know with a phrase or look when he can start to touch me, I'll need to moniter the pace of the booking to make sure he cums before and hour but not too quickly either (so I offer more or less oral, different positions, squeeze harder, change the noises I make etc). And all the time I have to be reading him to find out what his fantasies are for me to be, then become them or allude to em.

When I met this Dom I expected all that. That he'd TAKE control using his voice, body language, choice of words, expectations. And he did to some degree (altho I think it was harder, cos I was obviously blown away by experiencing the other woman). Then as it progressed, I kept swinging from *wanting* to do as I was told, and feeling like, well fuck you. So I tried out the 'fuck you' bit (stopped doing what I were told, ripped the collar, lit a fag, told him to get me a drink etc). Playing yer, wanting to see how he'd react, what'd happen.

What happened surprised me more n anything! Cos he turned the light on and went, it's over! And explained the whole 'gift' thing. And the next day I tried it there way, just gave the 'gift' and just led there essentially, and yer it worked and I got off on the pain, and what he give me was one of the sweetest things anyones ever done for me.

Think I was just expecting a little more of a fight the night before.

 

[His_pet_slut]

Perhaps a glass of wine or a cocktail with dinner to unwind a bit, but anything more coupled with BDSM or really any type of sexual adventures has always been a no for me.

I guess my take is, if I wouldn't want to do it stone-cold sober, I likely have no business doing it all. As for the PYL in the situation, I want him to be fully in control. The thought of someone impaired by drugs or alcohol tying me up, using a flogger or just mucking with my mind is NOT something I want to experience.

M~ and I have called off sessions due to him having a particularly stressful week and feeling he needs to have a few too many beers and let go rather than make sure things are staying within the realm of safe/sane/consensual. How is it consensual if your judgement is really impaired by alcohol/drugs?

Even back in the day when all I ever did was hubby and I playing with other couples or singles and no BDSM, if someone needed significant quantities of alcohol or weed to do it, I put a stop to things. Too likely someone would have major regrets over what was done when they were sober again.

Please don't take this as being critical. It is just my thoughts on it.

 

[Edith_UK]

Your thoughts are welcome mate I really think it's a cultural difference thing. The thought of NOT mixing booze and sex is completely alien to me, but then me n sobriety don't get on that well cos the edges are too sharp

Anyway, think we all agree that a general principle of 'not being *utterly* wasted' is a good idea And I was definitely too fucked Thursday night by the end cos I was having some problems standing hahaha. Found it hard to judge cos I wanted to be chilled enough not to care too much, but not so wasted I couldn't feel. Next time: less.

 

[JMohegan]

Way I saw it before the other night was this: the power to control the interaction hangs there to be taken by either party. When I'm working I use a whole lot of tricks to make sure ive got control (but he THINKS he has ).

For example, I get paid first, I might suggest a shower, I'll let him know with a phrase or look when he can start to touch me, I'll need to moniter the pace of the booking to make sure he cums before and hour but not too quickly either (so I offer more or less oral, different positions, squeeze harder, change the noises I make etc). And all the time I have to be reading him to find out what his fantasies are for me to be, then become them or allude to em.

When I met this Dom I expected all that. That he'd TAKE control using his voice, body language, choice of words, expectations. And he did to some degree (altho I think it was harder, cos I was obviously blown away by experiencing the other woman). Then as it progressed, I kept swinging from *wanting* to do as I was told, and feeling like, well fuck you. So I tried out the 'fuck you' bit (stopped doing what I were told, ripped the collar, lit a fag, told him to get me a drink etc). Playing yer, wanting to see how he'd react, what'd happen.

What happened surprised me more n anything! Cos he turned the light on and went, it's over! And explained the whole 'gift' thing. And the next day I tried it there way, just gave the 'gift' and just led there essentially, and yer it worked and I got off on the pain, and what he give me was one of the sweetest things anyones ever done for me.

Think I was just expecting a little more of a fight the night before.

Here's the thing, Edith. Bruises + DNA + traumatized or malevolent s = nightmare for the D. So trust goes both ways.

By walking out, that D exerted ultimate control over the proceedings, yes?

Of course, there can be a time & place for resistance & physical overpowering. But it's a hell of a risky move with a novice, especially when she's a stranger.

 

[JMohegan]

I don't know, I guess I have no trouble seeing how a submissive could be in control during sex. The D could simply tell the s to get him/her off. After that, physically, the pyl is controlling the situation. Not completely dissimilar to what the working girls do, I believe.

If the submissive one does something the dominant one doesn't like, I'm sure he/she would let them know. Being in control of the situation doesn't need to mean the D is physically active whereas the s just lies about.

As a purely semantic matter, I don't consider the s to be in control if she's responding to the D's direction and subject to his/her correction. That aside, I agree with you completely on the passive/active point.

 

[Edith_UK]

Here's the thing, Edith. Bruises + DNA + traumatized or malevolent s = nightmare for the D. So trust goes both ways.

By walking out, that D exerted ultimate control over the proceedings, yes?

Of course, there can be a time & place for resistance & physical overpowering. But it's a hell of a risky move with a novice, especially when she's a stranger.

Oh yer, it's a good point and I totally get you. Like I said I'm very grateful for his integrity and kindness. He knew what he was doing, his own boundaries, and how he wanted to play. I needed that, and I have an enormous amount of respect for him.

All I'm doing now is feeling my way around how I felt about what happened, and what I might want in the future, if you get me.

 

[Shankara20]

I'm gonna go out on a limb here.

I feel your post was well thought out and covered the complicated matter rather comprehensively. My view on playing while using is more black and white and not as libertarian (my descriptor - may not be yours) - but it is just my POV.

When I made my post I was in a playful and lazy place - not a good place to be when posting comments in a thread about trust with folk I have not yet shown enough respect to come to know. - my error.

I know that I can sound condensing, cynical and flip at times if I am not careful, if I loose "situational awareness".

Let's see if the following work for me when I am not in my own treads:
[/condensing]
[/cynical]
[/flip]


Sorry for the disruption.

 

[Edith_UK]

I feel your post was well thought out and covered the complicated matter rather comprehensively. My view on playing while using is more black and white and not as libertarian (my descriptor - may not be yours) - but it is just my POV.

When I made my post I was in a playful and lazy place - not a good place to be when posting comments in a thread about trust with folk I have not yet shown enough respect to come to know. - my error.

I know that I can sound condensing, cynical and flip at times if I am not careful, if I loose "situational awareness".

Let's see if the following work for me when I am not in my own treads:
[/condensing]
[/cynical]
[/flip]


Sorry for the disruption.

Ah GTF Think I were probably being over sensitive to the 'good sub' comment cos a) I know I ain't exactly got a deferential personality () and b) cos of the working component (I'm kinda finding it hard not to think of sub=innocent, and I'm about as far from innocent as you can get lol).

Anyway, that's all my stuff, not yours and I should get over it and not be rude. Sorry.

Edie x

 

[Shankara20]

Sorry.

Edie x

we're cool - thanks

I do want to spend more time reading all of this thread, to know about you, and the subject of trust is an important one for the work I do real-time.

I must go now, but I do want discuss this more later - here if it is OK with you, or start a new thread about the impact of broken trust.

 

[Edith_UK]

we're cool - thanks

I do want to spend more time reading all of this thread, to know about you, and the subject of trust is an important one for the work I do real-time.

I must go now, but I do want discuss this more later - here if it is OK with you, or start a new thread about the impact of broken trust.

Course it's ok here, I'd value your input

 

[Edith_UK]

You know last week, when I had my first experience, and I couldn't 'give' myself the night before. The next morning when I went back I was *determined* to do it yer, just to try it once. So I did, I just undressed and led down naked on the bed for him. Not tied or anything, just totally passive.

Like I couldn't find a middle ground between 'submitting' and fighting for control. When he hurt me, flogged me, forced his fingers in me I barely made much sound. And I couldn't look, dint want to speak, just lay there with my arms over my face. Sexy as fuck for me yer

But... he's said it made it very hard to judge me, see where I were at with it all (altho I had a safe word). I also wonder if a lot of Doms wouldn't find that a turn off, boring, unnerving or just weird. Or do a fair number of subs react like that? (is it common?). Or does it even matter?

I guess thinking about it, it took such an act of will to submit to him that it was a bit 'all or nothing'. Maybe I need more practice lol

 

[Loverskitten]

Personally, I think a lot of Doms revell in that exploration of new experiences for their subs. As well as guiding them and figuring them out. Boring? nope. You just have more layers to discover. If He doesn't have the patience to ease you along, keep looking.
But then I crave a very caring, loving, Dom and others may prefer submitting to a harsh, strict One.

For me, newness is good, experience or not. In fact, less experience is often better, I've found the very experienced subs too bossy and "do me" for it to be fun. They expect you to be just like their last or favorite Dom/Domme.

 

[DVS]

Personally, I think a lot of Doms revell in that exploration of new experiences for their subs. As well as guiding them and figuring them out. Boring? nope. You just have more layers to discover. If He doesn't have the patience to ease you along, keep looking.
But then I crave a very caring, loving, Dom and others may prefer submitting to a harsh, strict One.

For me, newness is good, experience or not. In fact, less experience is often better, I've found the very experienced subs too bossy and "do me" for it to be fun. They expect you to be just like their last or favorite Dom/Domme.

Exactly! I LOVE newbies, because they are timid at first and I can show them all of the exciting things for the first time. I know how it can be scary the first few times, or maybe embarrassing with some of the more lewd positions, but that's also part of the fun of controlling someone. You slowly take them through the process, adding a bit of spice (or torture, depending on your point of view) as you go along, until they have more trust in the process and in you.

Experienced subs are fun, too, but newbies...are extra fun. Like you said, Edith, he said he couldn't read you. That's normal for a newbie to be difficult to read. That's why you need someone who understands this. God, I wish it had been me. You seem like you'd be a lot of fun to um...torment.

 

[Scotsman69]

There's a difference

between it being harder to read a new sub when her eyes are shut, and not being able to read her at all.

Personally I relish a challenge.

Exactly! I LOVE newbies, because they are timid at first and I can show them all of the exciting things for the first time. I know how it can be scary the first few times, or maybe embarrassing with some of the more lewd positions, but that's also part of the fun of controlling someone. You slowly take them through the process, adding a bit of spice (or torture, depending on your point of view) as you go along, until they have more trust in the process and in you.

Experienced subs are fun, too, but newbies...are extra fun. Like you said, Edith, he said he couldn't read you. That's normal for a newbie to be difficult to read. That's why you need someone who understands this. God, I wish it had been me. You seem like you'd be a lot of fun to um...torment.

 

[Licia]

Help me feel something, anythingis what I hear when a sub has no reactions. Never has it been weird. Silence is incredibly hot when actions resonate.

Setting a caged bird free is magical. Bird returning to the perch of it's own freewill? Intoxicating. That is what the gift of submission means to me.

History a decent teacher, time must pass when trust is involved. He sounds as if he is doing his utmost to make sure that you are ok with what you are going through. Keep it quiet if that's your bag (unless you need your safeword) while the scene happens. Do him a favor and discuss what happened in your brain after the event. Give him a clue. He's not a mind reader yet.

 

[Shankara20]

.... barely made much sound. And I couldn't look, dint want to speak, just lay there with my arms over my face. ...


But... he's said it made it very hard to judge me, see where I were at with it all .....

When I first started I was bottom, and very much non-responsive. After the first session Ma'am refused to play again if I continued to stay totally inward. She demanded I express or respond "somehow" - and set about training me in that regard. She calls a non-responsive bottom a "selfish sponge", and it pisses Her off I'm not saying that about you, only explaining Her POV.

Once I started to Top I fully understood what She was driving at. When Topping I need the feedback to help inform my decisions. At times as a Top I have seen bottoms use of safeword as a failure on my part to read what is going on not all the time, but it has happened.

 

[Edith_UK]

Yer Shank, those things were the kind I meant. It was without a DOUBT the most selfish sexual experience of my life. (maybe my only selfish sex, but that's what ya get for working cos it ain't about you once you've got the coin lol).

I was thinking yer, I can exchange stuff though. I dance really sweet, I could give a Dom a lapdance before, and I can always 'switch' and let him fuck me how he wants after. (maybe not anal, I just... don't DO A-levels). But maybe them kinda exchanges could be negotiated

 

[Edith_UK]

Btw, Shank, when I were walking to the hotel, when I felt scared yer, your quote (the Anais Nin one) kept going through my head

 

[Shankara20]

Btw, Shank, when I were walking to the hotel, when I felt scared yer, your quote (the Anais Nin one) kept going through my head

I ran into it about the time, in my late 40's, that I was stepping our of my fantasy world of kink and into the real world of BDSM.

I was so full of fear I bet those around me could smell it on me, but I just could no longer keep it suppressed.

 

[Loverskitten]

I ran into it about the time, in my late 40's, that I was stepping our of my fantasy world of kink and into the real world of BDSM.

I was so full of fear I bet those around me could smell it on me, but I just could no longer keep it suppressed.

It's a great quote. I've felt the same as you, still do, and probably will in the future, but I'm trying!
Sadly some people will go through their whole lives never even trying to blossom

 

[kimuk]

No Dom/man/PYL can just say " Trust me hunnie, your safe , I'll never hurt you "

For me its been a case of little steps with a patient, caring man. Of getting to know him, spending hours talking and then taking the first physical steps.

Trust was never a given. Its grown over time. Its still developing. Odd how I can trust him with my body , yet I've found it so hard to open up and be complelty honest about recent events. Not because I didn't want to , but because of that absolute , ovewhelming fear of revealing somthing which would be so painful for him he would turn his back on me and walk away.

How wrong was I. But that's the process isn't it? You give yourself , little by little, until your vunerable and exposed and her proves himself over and over just by saying , its all over now , your safe with me.

When I first came to lit, every question I asked , the answer was always the same , talk to him. It felt too simple , like it was some sort of majic key to fix everthing. But for us it's worked. We cannot read each others minds and our assumptions of what the other is thinking is often wrong. The only way is to talk it through and thats how our trust in each other grows.

 

[Edith_UK]

Well I dint really go down that route, but fair play to you that you have. I don't want a relationship or fall in love or any of that stuff. I just wanted to get tied up and hurt. And I just done it in the end