Trust

[Recidiva]

Deception is kinda built in to modern life, and I have enough history and enough travel experience to believe that it is a feature of any way of life, modern or not. But the modern way of life, in agglomerations of many thousands of people, separated from one's birth family by custom, and expected to be willing to relocate for the convenience of employers, puts two faces (at least) on life. Let me specify a bit, so you'll know what I mean by that.

I think most people cultivate a 'public face.' This is a more or less deliberate strategem to make life easier. You can see echoes of it in many of the posts here in the thread. Reluctance to 'open up,' someone said. Letting people see who I am is even more specific. Even the notion that close friends receive different treatment is related to it. You know what I mean, Recidiva; when I called you youthful, you responded, "...really, it's not innocence or sweetness that makes me who I am."

Because anyone who reflects upon his life notices this duplicity, and often a teenager or twenty-something will resolve to end the games, and make a bold face of honesty. I misread your declaration for one of those, and you recognized what I'd done.

For me, though, the public face arises from the artificial situation moderns have to cope with. One can acknowledge the millions around one only so far, but one searches the crowd for members of one's tribe. You tell them by their manner of dress, quite a bit of the time. And much of one's social life consists of building and maintaining one's own small group, like a little tribe of one's own, because of a human preference for small, manageable groups to belong to. Such a group often develops its own rules of conduct independent from the larger society.

The tribe you live in, the tribe you prey on, the tribe that preys on yours-- these are the people city dwellers take cognizance of as the move through many thousands of others who count mostly as environment, obstacles. Eye contact acknowledgement is rare in a street throng. People notice it and feel that in a city like Boston, they have anonymity which they would lack in a small town like Littleton, New Hampshire.

That's what I mean by the public face/private face being built in. At work, particularly in a competitive work situation, you sometimes have to be guarded. In the Boston street, you look past most of humanity. And that sort of two-facedness is pretty trivial, and there is usually little reason not to wear your real face all the time, as far as those distinctions go.

Having a secret, inner life which nobody else knows, though, is schizoid, isn't it? That's what public face/private face tends toward. A city makes everyone set up a sort of schizoid stance, for insulation from the millions. It takes a deliberate effort to forgo it.

I had a fast education in this by working an ambulance for ten years. When someone calls an ambulance, they don't tidy up for company. You got a slice of life, man, stepping into all those doors. Outside, among the rest of us, people follow social norms to at least a calculated extent, but at home....! It's amazing how wildly different are the modes of living behind all those same-seeming houses' walls. My city was small, small-- only about 30,000. But I saw a bewildering variety of oddness, stepping into peoples' lives when they were in crisis. Cops see it, too, and some others.

And all this might be seen as lies, or you might reserve the term for intentional deceptions of another order, like the ones committed for gain or to manipulate.

So we have a couple of levels of the trust issue already. First, what level of trust you bring to an encounter with a stranger, and second, what level of trust you expect to be able to have in a member of your group of friends.

Skepticism and doubt can be a defense against people who lie and deceive for gain, to be sure. A junkie will tell you any story he or she can contrive. If you have picked your friends well, perhaps you can expect better of them.

And you need trust. If trust is gone between two people, nothing either one can say can help, because the other must expect a lie. Ordinary social interaction becomes impossible, if you really trust no one.

I work for medical transcription companies, so my job is reading horrible stories all day long about what people do to themselves and others that end up in the psych ward and the emergency room.

In the end the solution for me is a lack of shame. It's not my shame if I'm lied to. It's my shame if I don't respond appropriately to what appears to be true. People take far too much shame onto themselves, and I consider that to be the most destructive aspect of being lied to. You become the victim. You have to defend against lies so it doesn't happen again.

We have a very victim-based value system that I often don't agree with. Being the victim of something doesn't place you at fault, or stupid, or anything like that. It makes you the victim of something. You move on. I choose to lead a less armored life. Knowing I'll get hit, but working on the emotional strength to survive it. I don't buy into the idea that being assaulted makes me the victim. But I also don't troll the dangerous emotional spots where I'm asking for it. Turns out I can dodge or absorb or heal from most attempts to hurt me. It's much more of a Tai Chi thing than it is karate. I'm not well armored, I'm just quick.

 

[CharleyH]

As I keep saying ... trust is not one thing or another - it is a leap of faith.

 

[cantdog]

As I keep saying ... trust is not one thing or another - it is a leap of faith.

Like when you're driving. Any one of those people in the oncoming lane could cross the little line down the middle. They could do it any time. And you have no reason to trust they won't, man, because once in a while, they do.

But if you don't trust them, you've gone and paralyzed yourself.

I love analogies.

work for medical transcription companies, so my job is reading horrible stories all day long about what people do to themselves and others that end up in the psych ward and the emergency room.

In the end the solution for me is a lack of shame. It's not my shame if I'm lied to. It's my shame if I don't respond appropriately to what appears to be true. People take far too much shame onto themselves, and I consider that to be the most destructive aspect of being lied to. You become the victim. You have to defend against lies so it doesn't happen again.

We have a very victim-based value system that I often don't agree with. Being the victim of something doesn't place you at fault, or stupid, or anything like that. It makes you the victim of something. You move on. I choose to lead a less armored life. Knowing I'll get hit, but working on the emotional strength to survive it. I don't buy into the idea that being assaulted makes me the victim. But I also don't troll the dangerous emotional spots where I'm asking for it. Turns out I can dodge or absorb or heal from most attempts to hurt me. It's much more of a Tai Chi thing than it is karate. I'm not well armored, I'm just quick.

See that middle paragraph. Your wisdom there is that you avoid the binary trap. The thread starter asked "What breaks that trust?" To me that implied that trust is like a light bulb, either off or on, and also that it breaks and then is gone. Now, I think, as you seem to, that such an approach creates problems. But I know a lot of people who want to think of trust like that. You've heard them: "How can I ever trust you again?"

More youthful thinking. I been around a bit, and if you look down, you can see 'em. Feet of mother fuckin clay, man. I got 'em, and you got 'em. Hell, I probably fuck up on a daily basis. Sometimes I don't discover it til later, which means I fucked up twice. Sometimes I fuck up and betray trust in the doing of it. So will you, if you haven't already. House apes can hardly get out of their own way, sometimes. We can be damn pathetic, but we're all we have.

As far as the other sort of lies are concerned, not everyone means well at the point in their life that you meet them. Most people do, but not that well, and not all the time. Just like the center line thing I was telling CharleyH about, you can't let it paralyze you.

I am gratified to find we have so much common ground on this.

In the end, though humans are beyond hope, you gotta love 'em. And if you don't know who to trust, you might as well trust 'em.

Duplicity comes in lots of shades; it can be very black. But lying well is an art, one which can do a lot of good in the world, given that understanding is so limited.

 

[impressive]

In the end the solution for me is a lack of shame. It's not my shame if I'm lied to. It's my shame if I don't respond appropriately to what appears to be true. People take far too much shame onto themselves, and I consider that to be the most destructive aspect of being lied to. You become the victim. You have to defend against lies so it doesn't happen again.

I've been chewing on this for hours, and I'm wondering about "responding appropriately to what appears (or is known) to be lies."

Very insightful posts, 'Diva. Thank you.

 

[cantdog]

I've been chewing on this for hours, and I'm wondering about "responding appropriately to what appears (or is known) to be lies."

Very insightful posts, 'Diva. Thank you.

Isn't she great?

 

[impressive]

Isn't she great?

As are you!

 

[Recidiva]

Thanks impressive and cantdog, it's wonderful to have cool thoughts to think and cooler people to think them with.

 

[cantdog]

This has been a killer thread altogether. I've never understood why people get so bent about the philosophical threads, like we don't belong here, talkin about this shit.

 

[slyc_willie]

I see no reason not to give anyone the benefit of the doubt. I afford trust to just about anyone, with the idea that, if that trust is broken, I am able to survive it.

But then, I don't always open up readily, and I rarely part with my deepest secrets. So trusting people is never difficult nor disadvantageous to me. If someone breaks my trust, the consequences toward me are usually comparable to someone giving me a slap across the face. It stings, but doesn't really hurt.

However, when it comes to sharing my True self, my deepest secrets . . . that is done only rarely, and I had better have a damn good feeling about the person before doing so. There are less than a handful of people out there who have counted the skeletons in my closet, and thankfully, none have rattled the bones thus far. I've been lucky, I suppose. Or just insightful in chosing who I share with.

I'm not sure what, exactly, I would do if someone broke my trust. I doubt there would be retribution; just an end to friendship. And the loss of a friend is about as painful as the death of one.

 

[cantdog]

Trust essentially starts with myself.

I trust that the world is unpredictable and I can't know what will happen.

I trust there are reasons for things I don't understand, and often the people doing incomprehensible things don't understand them either.

I trust that I'm doing the best I can, and I give others that benefit of the doubt until or unless they prove they aren't, then I forgive them, but they don't get another chance. Protective custody, so to speak.

Trust isn't something I give people so that they'll please me, it's something I choose so that I just trust people to be what they are. There are very few people who know themselves well enough and are disciplined enough to not crack under the various insane pressures life brings to bear. When they do and can, I'm amazed, when they can't, I strive to understand and help if I'm able.

Trust that life is hard, people are trying, and forgiveness isn't something I do because they need it, it's something I do to move on.

This is what works for me so that ultimately, any betrayal can be placed in a context that makes it big enough to get that I don't, and can't, know the whole picture.

Beautiful, especially about forgiveness. I do not have a better-dead list any more. I just took stock one day and noticed it was missing. Go figure. I don't miss it because carrying a grudge is heavy ass work. It hurts only the dude carrying the grudge. Resentment poisons you, man.

Gandhi said it is only the strong who can forgive. He even said the weak can never do it. One translation of "I forgive you" is "that's one more thing I'm not going to sweat about, now." Forgiveness sets you to rights; hell, it may even help the poor bastard you're forgiving.

 

[impressive]

It just all makes me terribly sad, though.

 

[slyc_willie]

It just all makes me terribly sad, though.

The topic of trust can be a pretty depressing subject. We all wish we lived in a world without betrayal and disappointment, but that's not gonna happen any time soon. Hell, everywhere we go, we see lies and misinformation, and even if we don't want it to be, we're part of it. Reading the fine print on a gift card. Going shopping for a car. Seeing your best friend making out with someone who ISN'T her husband.

Dishonesty is as much a human trait as honesty. Unfortunately, it is easier to lie than tell the truth. Lying means you're protected. Telling the truth means you're exposed -- or someone else is.

Someone once said the human race is basically selfish. Little wonder, then, that many of us take the easy road of protecting ourselves.

 

[cantdog]

I see no reason not to give anyone the benefit of the doubt. I afford trust to just about anyone, with the idea that, if that trust is broken, I am able to survive it.

But then, I don't always open up readily, and I rarely part with my deepest secrets. So trusting people is never difficult nor disadvantageous to me. If someone breaks my trust, the consequences toward me are usually comparable to someone giving me a slap across the face. It stings, but doesn't really hurt.

However, when it comes to sharing my True self, my deepest secrets . . . that is done only rarely, and I had better have a damn good feeling about the person before doing so. There are less than a handful of people out there who have counted the skeletons in my closet, and thankfully, none have rattled the bones thus far. I've been lucky, I suppose. Or just insightful in chosing who I share with.

I'm not sure what, exactly, I would do if someone broke my trust. I doubt there would be retribution; just an end to friendship. And the loss of a friend is about as painful as the death of one.

I know about that last. The loss of a friend.

Now, about secrets, and honesty.



I've sort of discussed some kinds of secrets, the kind that are represented by the stuff I saw on the ambulance. Or, like, if you have ever had to go through the house and possessions of the dead. I did that ad hoc, as a fireman, and I have been the executor for a beloved grandparent and also for my own father. They were gone, and a lot of the secrets were spilled, now.

All those circumstances drive home that the conformity of life is a sham. Social and sometimes even criminal punishments are meted out to the deviants, and yet the deviants are legion. I would hazard that the normal, the people who actually have lives which conform to the norms, are paradoxically quite rare. Which makes society's concerns about those norms a bit hypocritical.

So some secrets are political, if I may use the term. That is, they are kept to avoid social opprobrium or even criminal prosecution. Not that the crimes are worse if they have laws against them. I have only met one person over the age of twenty who has never smoked pot, for instance. Extrapolate that and nearly every person is a criminal. Would honesty serve them?

There are enough laws and customs and taboos so that you can't even know them all. Break a law every day, I say.

But still, we are likely well advised to keep the political variety of secret. A society where everyone was turning everyone else in would be a nightmare. When Germany was reunited, the Stasi thing in the East was a big problem. A lot of people had turned in family and neighbors and enemies to the Stasi. Some were informants on a fairly regular basis, even if you didn't know who they were. What sort of social repercussions might ensue, we wondered, now that the Stasi was gone and everyone was there in the open, as it were, looking at one another and remembering?

In the end, it turned out from the records which the secret state police kept, now available to scrutiny, that a very big majority of people had informed to the Stasi. Seriously, the figure was like eighty per cent or some damn thing, I forget; it was over two thirds, though, as I recall it.

Consider living in such a place. Now tell me the virtue of "honesty" when it comes to that sort of thing.

In a less formal way, denizens of small towns live just that way. Gossip. Very destructive, true or not. Just keep the damn secrets.

 

[slyc_willie]

I remember something my CO told me, long ago, when I was just a young and stupid officer (is that redundant?). He told me: "Eighty perecent of what the military does is classified. Ninety-five percent of that doesn't need to be."

The value of secrets and the amount of damage that would be caused should such secrets be revealed is relative, and subject to many factors, most of them political.

Sometimes, I think people place too much importance on their secrets. I may be guilty of this myself, who knows? I mean, how much would it change who I am, and how I live my life, if EVERYTHING that I have done in my life, were made public? Are my secrets really that devastating?

However, like 99.99% of the population of this planet, I am hesitant to find out.

Just in case.

 

[joeys-game]

Hey gang, thanks for all your heartfelt, honest posts..i m glad you all participated ..glad you guys l;iked the thread..seemed to be one that folks could hatch out.

 

[slyc_willie]

Hey gang, thanks for all your heartfelt, honest posts..i m glad you all participated ..glad you guys l;iked the thread..seemed to be one that folks could hatch out.

Seems to have brought out the philosophers amongst us

 

[joeys-game]

Seems to have brought out the philosophers amongst us

didn't it though. that was great. wish i could have participated more but im not tat home, so can't be on like i wanna be..lol

 

[cantdog]

I remember something my CO told me, long ago, when I was just a young and stupid officer (is that redundant?). He told me: "Eighty perecent of what the military does is classified. Ninety-five percent of that doesn't need to be."

The value of secrets and the amount of damage that would be caused should such secrets be revealed is relative, and subject to many factors, most of them political.

Sometimes, I think people place too much importance on their secrets. I may be guilty of this myself, who knows? I mean, how much would it change who I am, and how I live my life, if EVERYTHING that I have done in my life, were made public? Are my secrets really that devastating?

However, like 99.99% of the population of this planet, I am hesitant to find out.

Just in case.

The older you get the less importantly secret a lot of the secrets seem to become. Of course, if they put away a ninety-year-old for life, well, he can laugh at 'em. Still, most of the secrets people confide in me aren't important to be secret. But I feel obligated to keep a confidence, all the same.

And I am not entirely sure guarding secrets is easier than being mostly frank. Certainly if you are giving out the true skinny, there is less finicky detail to remember. Lies only work if you're consistent, and even then the rest of the world has to be consistent with them, too. It can entail a lot of maintenance.

Candor and respect is actually a pretty good recipe.

 

[slyc_willie]

The older you get the less importantly secret a lot of the secrets seem to become. Of course, if they put away a ninety-year-old for life, well, he can laugh at 'em. Still, most of the secrets people confide in me aren't important to be secret. But I feel obligated to keep a confidence, all the same.

And I am not entirely sure guarding secrets is easier than being mostly frank. Certainly if you are giving out the true skinny, there is less finicky detail to remember. Lies only work if you're consistent, and even then the rest of the world has to be consistent with them, too. It can entail a lot of maintenance.

Candor and respect is actually a pretty good recipe.

The world would be a much different place if people respected frank honesty more than shrewd 'realism.'

I always cringe when someone comes to me with, "can you keep a secret?" And then, what they tell me is some ridiculously high-school-esque diatribe of someone's activities the night before. As if that's a 'secret' that deserves guarding.

No, what I suspect is that "can you keep a secret" means, "can you promise to tell lots and lots of people about what happened, but make sure I'm not to blame for starting it?"

The nature of secrets is that they beg to be released, and sooner or later, they will be. And, to be honest, most need to be. A husband shouldn't have to keep secret that he's actually playing poker on Thursdays when he tells his wife that he's 'working late.' A girl in high school shouldn't have to keep secret that she finds so-and-so attractive, just because another girl does as well.

Modern Western society has become so indoctrinated to the necessity and value of secrets that it has become a pandemic. It's rediculous.

But don't tell anyone I said that. Let's keep this a secret.

 

[joeys-game]

The older you get the less importantly secret a lot of the secrets seem to become. Of course, if they put away a ninety-year-old for life, well, he can laugh at 'em. Still, most of the secrets people confide in me aren't important to be secret. But I feel obligated to keep a confidence, all the same.

And I am not entirely sure guarding secrets is easier than being mostly frank. Certainly if you are giving out the true skinny, there is less finicky detail to remember. Lies only work if you're consistent, and even then the rest of the world has to be consistent with them, too. It can entail a lot of maintenance.

Candor and respect is actually a pretty good recipe.

Respect is a big one..you have to be able to respect yourself as a decent human being..then move onto respecting others, otherwise its just lip service..imo.

Integrity is another defining characteristic..either yoiu are who you are and portray or your a liar and a fake.

 

[cantdog]

Integrity can be slippery, over time. People change, thank goodness.

 

[joeys-game]

Integrity can be slippery, over time. People change, thank goodness.

I agree, people change, grow, learn new ways..but i believe the core person is always there....guess it depends on your view of integrity.