Topping from the Bottom

[myinnerslut]

in all seriousness, this thread bring back some deja vu, and not in a good way.

my advice to you is

~talk about the scene with your PYL after its over. during the scene you dont get to tell him/her what to do unless you are using your safeword or your opinion is asked for. after the scene (and this doesnt have to be directly after, but relativly shortly after) talk about what happened. talk about what you liked and what you didnt like.


~set up a safe way for you to say how you felt about something at a later point in time if you think of somethign to say. something like writing in a journal, where you have the freedom to express your opinion without being demanding or manipulative

~if you begin to top from the bottom during a scene, your PYL should simply end the scene. get up ad walk away. complete withdrawel from the scene should get the lesson across after a few times.

 

[mjones908]

As I thought about it, I think part of it is I have never dated a true dom, but rather people I have "coaxed" into it.... not in a bad way, they are happy to oblige but I still feel like I need to direct things in order to get them to where I want them to be.....

that make sense at all ?

 

[FurryFury]

As I thought about it, I think part of it is I have never dated a true dom, but rather people I have "coaxed" into it.... not in a bad way, they are happy to oblige but I still feel like I need to direct things in order to get them to where I want them to be.....

that make sense at all ?

To me, it makes perfect sense. I am currently in the same boat only I'm having a difficult time directing lately.

 

[Etoile]

The short answer: stop.

The longer one: expecting or asking your Dom to break this habit of yours is basically more topping from the bottom. If you want to submit, then do so. That's your responsibility in your relationship and in sustaining its D/s dynamic.

Might one also say that it's the dom's responsibility to not put up with that shit?

I think both partners have a responsibility here. The sub has to try to stop the inappropriate behavior, and the dom has to refuse to put up with it. That combination will fix the situation quickly.

 

[FurryFury]

Might one also say that it's the dom's responsibility to not put up with that shit?

I think both partners have a responsibility here. The sub has to try to stop the inappropriate behavior, and the dom has to refuse to put up with it. That combination will fix the situation quickly.

True, but that only applies if you are actually in a D/s relationship.

 

[Netzach]

Dropping out of the game. Nothing deflates like "ok, you win. Now what should we do, Master?"

 

[Homburg]

What BiBunny said.

I think it's Homburg who has this line somewhere about submission: just shut up and do what you're told. Easy.

To be fair, it was based off something that Marquis said.

--------------------------

Some tricky, manipulative people simply don't know what they want. Often, they are also quite attractive, in a BPD way, and doms get sucked in and founder on the rocks.

I've never looked at BPD, but I see that I've had it in my face before.

Egads. Thank you for drawing my attention to this, RR.

--------------------------

As I thought about it, I think part of it is I have never dated a true dom, but rather people I have "coaxed" into it.... not in a bad way, they are happy to oblige but I still feel like I need to direct things in order to get them to where I want them to be.....

that make sense at all ?

You're talking about Service Tops. Sometimes service tops will find the things they like and evolve in regular tops. You can give them a chance, or you can find someone that has their own goals in-scene, and see what happens.

Personally, bottoms are perfectly okay. Topping from the bottom is perfectly okay. It's all based on what you mutually agree to. Just be honest enough to call yourself a bottom, and not claim to be a submissive.

Otherwise, yeah, shut the fuck up and do as your told. Best cure for topping from the bottom that I know.

 

[myinnerslut]

To be fair, it was based off something that Marquis said.

marquis is a smart guy.

i believe it was him who asked (and this is paraphrased) "whats stopping your PYL from backhanding you across the face and then continuing with what they are doing?"

 

[Marquis]

Ah, the old BPD connection.


There's nothing more fun than diagnosing your loved ones, and prescribing the strop as therapy.

 

[unfoundiamond]

I don't know about you but...

I know I have a bad habit of this, any thoughts on how to break myself of this habit?

Techniques dom's have used to break this habit ?

(Taking control as a sub, just in case)

I only do this when the topping party isn't strong enough to dominate the scene...

Just something to consider...

 

[Evil_Geoff]

In my observations and to my way of thinking, there seem to be two schools of thought regarding "topping from the bottom":

"Topping from the bottom" in the sense of a D/s relationship is using deception, lying, manipulation to try to get the PYL to do something the pyl wants or needs done. At best, it is an inability to communicate honestly and directly between the parties in the relationship. At it's worst, it is deliberate, willful conduct, dishonest to the core, designed to decieve the Dominant about the true needs, desires, and nature of the pyl.

In the case of the inability to honestly communicate, serious issues exist, probably along trust lines, and this isn't something that a Dominant can work out of a pyl. This is something that everyone in the relationship will have to work on by learning to listen without judgement, speaking needs and desires openly and honestly, and working TOGETHER to achieve the needs and desires of the parties involved.

In my own relationships, if I found out it's a case of willful, ongoing deceit, I will show the pyl the door, I won't put up with one deliberately lying to me.

The second view of "Topping from the bottom" seems to be taken from SM play scenes. Personally, I think people are confusing the issue because in SM play having the bottom set their limits, negotiate the kind of play that may or may not occur, etc. is to be expected. For a scene, it's not a problem, it's a given, especially for people that are new to playing with one another.

And I don't see anything wrong with a bottom saying "OUCH! That HURT you bastard, STOP!" or "Beat on my ass more, my back hurts" as "Topping from the bottom" That's just letting me know I'm doing my job right... _I_ make the decision to ease off, stop, or change targets after all. It's MY decision, unless they safeword out of the scene.

 

[FurryFury]

I do agree that deceit is a big no no for me. EG.

 

[mjones908]

I do agree that deceit is a big no no for me. EG.

Deceit is always a huge turn off...

I guess I need to keep searching for the right person to submit to .....

 

[Homburg]

The second view of "Topping from the bottom" seems to be taken from SM play scenes. Personally, I think people are confusing the issue because in SM play having the bottom set their limits, negotiate the kind of play that may or may not occur, etc. is to be expected. For a scene, it's not a problem, it's a given, especially for people that are new to playing with one another.

And I don't see anything wrong with a bottom saying "OUCH! That HURT you bastard, STOP!" or "Beat on my ass more, my back hurts" as "Topping from the bottom" That's just letting me know I'm doing my job right... _I_ make the decision to ease off, stop, or change targets after all. It's MY decision, unless they safeword out of the scene.

This was the sort of Topping from the Bottom that I was referring to, and am fine with so long as it is negotiated properly.

I didn't think of the manipulative kind. That's vile.

 

[graceanne]

And I don't see anything wrong with a bottom saying "OUCH! That HURT you bastard, STOP!" or "Beat on my ass more, my back hurts" as "Topping from the bottom" That's just letting me know I'm doing my job right... _I_ make the decision to ease off, stop, or change targets after all. It's MY decision, unless they safeword out of the scene.

I agree, especially with extra considerations. Sometimes something that didn't hurt yesterday is unbearable today. i've been known, in the middle to say, can we stop doing . . . whatever. Or 'honey, please smack me in a different spot'. Once I yelled, but he apologized cause it was 'OW! WATCH THE SPINE!'. I've also said 'um, you've been drinking. no breath play.'

I DO NOT consider this bottom topping. I am not telling him what to do, but what NOT to do. I call it communication. I cannot negotiate those things in advance cause I don't know what's going on there until it's happening. It's not like we make a map of what we're gonna do in play every time. We play a lot by ear - we only negotiate if K wants to do something we've never done before.

 

[Netzach]

Feedback which is useful is not control.

Oh I'm a bad boy I just KNOW Mistress is going to cage me today! ---

not feedback.

 

[unfoundiamond]

sorry...

(*oops*)

 

[unfoundiamond]

this term includes more behaviors than I thought...

In my observations and to my way of thinking, there seem to be two schools of thought regarding "topping from the bottom":

"Topping from the bottom" in the sense of a D/s relationship is using deception, lying, manipulation to try to get the PYL to do something the pyl wants or needs done. At best, it is an inability to communicate honestly and directly between the parties in the relationship. At it's worst, it is deliberate, willful conduct, dishonest to the core, designed to decieve the Dominant about the true needs, desires, and nature of the pyl.

In the case of the inability to honestly communicate, serious issues exist, probably along trust lines, and this isn't something that a Dominant can work out of a pyl. This is something that everyone in the relationship will have to work on by learning to listen without judgement, speaking needs and desires openly and honestly, and working TOGETHER to achieve the needs and desires of the parties involved.

In my own relationships, if I found out it's a case of willful, ongoing deceit, I will show the pyl the door, I won't put up with one deliberately lying to me.

The second view of "Topping from the bottom" seems to be taken from SM play scenes. Personally, I think people are confusing the issue because in SM play having the bottom set their limits, negotiate the kind of play that may or may not occur, etc. is to be expected. For a scene, it's not a problem, it's a given, especially for people that are new to playing with one another.

And I don't see anything wrong with a bottom saying "OUCH! That HURT you bastard, STOP!" or "Beat on my ass more, my back hurts" as "Topping from the bottom" That's just letting me know I'm doing my job right... _I_ make the decision to ease off, stop, or change targets after all. It's MY decision, unless they safeword out of the scene.

The second definition is a lot closer to what I assumed the op was talking about.

I didn't know people use the guise of "topping from the bottom" to rationalize lying or being decietful and manipultation...

I didn't think manipulation was acceptible from either party personally, Command me, tell me what I am going to do...

but its supposed to be consentual... and how can something be consentual when a person isn't aware of what the other persons true intentions are... (pyl or PYL)

Basically what I am saying is, I guess it happens that people use manipulation to get their top to do things they want outside "scene" or negotiated situation... but that's (TO ME) not the same thing as trying to tell the top what you want, or how to do what they are doing... are super diffrent...

But then if you include giving instructions to the top as not being topping from the bottom, but just helping the dominant...

This has definately made me think, Thanx people...

 

[madetotakeit]

I don't get the appeal of topping from the bottom. It just seems so...counterproductive to me. My part as a sub is to submit. The exchange of power is paramount. Interests and boundaries should be discussed before hand. Thresholds can only be known by finding and pushing them.

If something is too intense for me to handle, that would be the time to utilize my safe words. If I feel I can handle more, there will be unintentional signals that with knowledge of me my Dom would recognize. If I felt I could have gone farther...well that is where discussion after comes in.

To top from the bottom is to attempt to control. That means I am not allowing myself to fully submit. Where is the joy and freedom in that for someone who needs that submission or for the Dom that craves that control? If I felt I needed to top from the bottom I would start looking at the compatibility with that Dom. He would not be giving me what I need, or the trust just wouldn't be at a sufficient level to allow him free reign.

 

[Guest]

To top from the bottom is to attempt to control. That means I am not allowing myself to fully submit. Where is the joy and freedom in that for someone who needs that submission or for the Dom that craves that control? If I felt I needed to top from the bottom I would start looking at the compatibility with that Dom. He would not be giving me what I need, or the trust just wouldn't be at a sufficient level to allow him free reign.

I'd say you've hit it. The essence of willing submission is, after all, trust. "I'm going to allow You to tell me what to do, to do with me largely what You will. I'm going to trust that You won't harm me, and that what we do will be good."

Submission isn't really the gift we give to Dominants... it's the trust that's humbling, or damned well should be.

And the only people I know with more control issues than many submissives are Dominants.

Submission is like a an unending series of "trust falls;" falling backwards blindly, trusting someone else to catch you.

My Most Beloved Mistress just commented that the trust isn't a gift, but rather something earned by the actions, words, demeanor, etc. of the Dominant. I think that's true, but ultimately it's the submissive who decides to let go, trusting that the Dominant will catch him or her.

 

[madetotakeit]

I'd say you've hit it. The essence of willing submission is, after all, trust. "I'm going to allow You to tell me what to do, to do with me largely what You will. I'm going to trust that You won't harm me, and that what we do will be good."

Submission isn't really the gift we give to Dominants... it's the trust that's humbling, or damned well should be.

And the only people I know with more control issues than many submissives are Dominants.

Submission is like a an unending series of "trust falls;" falling backwards blindly, trusting someone else to catch you.

My Most Beloved Mistress just commented that the trust isn't a gift, but rather something earned by the actions, words, demeanor, etc. of the Dominant. I think that's true, but ultimately it's the submissive who decides to let go, trusting that the Dominant will catch him or her.

How perfectly, eloquently stated...

 

[Guest]

How perfectly, eloquently stated...

Aww, gee, shucks, ma'am...

Thanks very much for those kind words.