Topping from the bottom

[Desdemona]

Last night, another sub and I were discussing this particular subject. We're both intelligent women, but we seem to have a little trouble fully grasping this concept. Here is what the two of us think we understand about topping from the bottom.

#1. It is manipulation of the Dom to get your own way.
#2. Recognizing it is obvious to us in terms of differences of opinion or during a scene.

That said, there have been references to topping from the bottom here that didn't seem so obvious to us. We think there may be more subtle forms of this phenomenon that we just don't pick up on.

How do you differentiate between mischievous, teasing/play and topping from the bottom?

Thanks for any light you can shed on this subject.

 

[lovetoread]

I dont say anything,and make no suggestions at all.

For it is never taken as playful talk.

 

[WillowPuss]

Last night, another sub and I were discussing this particular subject. We're both intelligent women, but we seem to have a little trouble fully grasping this concept. Here is what the two of us think we understand about topping from the bottom.

#1. It is manipulation of the Dom to get your own way.
#2. Recognizing it is obvious to us in terms of differences of opinion or during a scene.

That said, there have been references to topping from the bottom here that didn't seem so obvious to us. We think there may be more subtle forms of this phenomenon that we just don't pick up on.

How do you differentiate between mischievous, teasing/play and topping from the bottom?

Thanks for any light you can shed on this subject.

Gosh - might be better if the Dom/me's and switches answered this.

But - possibly the continual questioning of the same thing over and over again?

 

[Desdemona]

I dont say anything,and make no suggestions at all.

For it is never taken as playful talk.

Do you mean this in a scene or in general conversation?

 

[lovetoread]

Do you mean this in a scene or in general conversation?

Usually during a scene,but it does sometimes come out in day to day life.

 

[Desdemona]

Re: Re: Topping from the bottom

Gosh - might be better if the Dom/me's and switches answered this.

But - possibly the continual questioning of the same thing over and over again?

I get the continual questioning of the same thing over and over again part and that makes sense.

 

[Shadowsdream]

Last night, another sub and I were discussing this particular subject. We're both intelligent women, but we seem to have a little trouble fully grasping this concept. Here is what the two of us think we understand about topping from the bottom.

#1. It is manipulation of the Dom to get your own way.
#2. Recognizing it is obvious to us in terms of differences of opinion or during a scene.

That said, there have been references to topping from the bottom here that didn't seem so obvious to us. We think there may be more subtle forms of this phenomenon that we just don't pick up on.

How do you differentiate between mischievous, teasing/play and topping from the bottom?

Thanks for any light you can shed on this subject.

~

submissive dictates when the Dom/me should be available to them...dictates how the Dom/me should or should not discipline...example...sub wants a spanking for being disrespectful...Dom/me ignores the sub...so sub is pissed off at the Dom/me for not spanking as desired...sub is disrespectful to get attention...if attention is given as the sub wants it..that sub is VERY successfully Topping from the bottom..if it works once it will become a habit in My opinion...

submissive wants a spanking so she or he says " i know you are not going to spank me" EXACTLY...it is not difficult to see the set up here!

submissive tries to control who the Dominant can or cannot talk to by displaying jealousy or being confrontational.

Is that a little helpful..and no I am not talking about in scene...it would never get to scene with this behaviour for Me....only talking about for ME.

 

[cellis]

Des...

I have talked a little about the new girl Himself and I have found. She is in need of training and I want her to be perfect for Himself and myself as well.

She has tendency to try to "top from the bottom". A case in point... I always try to give her a little something to think about... it excites her and myself as well because of the effect on her... I will then tell her that I have to go. I expect our conversation to end, but she always tries to draw me out... to prolong the time we spend together on the phone or on the computer. I find that I must be very firm with her even though symbolically she will "crawl over to where I am sitting and lay her head on my lap... begging for more". Something as simple as this one act is what I consider trying to "top" me.

Every conversation on line we have is saved. I send them to Himself so that he may monitor my progress with her and tell me where I have not be strong enough or suggest what I might do better. This training of the new girl is part of my training from him.

 

[Shadowsdream]

Des...

I have talked a little about the new girl Himself and I have found. She is in need of training and I want her to be perfect for Himself and myself as well.

She has tendency to try to "top from the bottom". A case in point... I always try to give her a little something to think about... it excites her and myself as well because of the effect on her... I will then tell her that I have to go. I expect our conversation to end, but she always tries to draw me out... to prolong the time we spend together on the phone or on the computer. I find that I must be very firm with her even though symbolically she will "crawl over to where I am sitting and lay her head on my lap... begging for more". Something as simple as this one act is what I consider trying to "top" me.

Every conversation on line we have is saved. I send them to Himself so that he may monitor my progress with her and tell me where I have not be strong enough or suggest what I might do better. This training of the new girl is part of my training from him.

100% correct seeing this as Topping from the bottom..your Master must be proud of you for recognizing it and dealing with it up front.

 

[Desdemona]

Shadows and Cellis, thank you. I need to think about this a bit. On the surface, it just looks like manipulative behavior to me. This is helpful.

 

[Shadowsdream]

Shadows and Cellis, thank you. I need to think about this a bit. On the surface, it just looks like manipulative behavior to me. This is helpful.

manipulative=Topping from the bottom in My opinion

 

[Soron]

Not Tolerant

This is a sore spot that I will not tolerate. Whether done intentionally or not, it sets bells off in my head right away.

If it is done to get a spanking or attention then I revert to what Shadows suggests. That tends to cure that behavior pretty quickly.

If it is attempted as getting wants attended to, then there will be physical punishment usually. As in, can we skip a day of training or make love instead of doing chores. I have no problem taking care of her needs but her wants are something I will allow as a reward and I don't want her whining because she isn't getting something she wants taken care of, especially if she is trying to top. I am very hard headed when it comes to this and she just digs herself a deeper hole the more she tries this type of behavior.

Like being a parent, I've been around this too long to know when she is trying to do these things.

 

[A Desert Rose]

Thank you Des,

for starting this thread.

The responses here, so far are helpful. I am seeing this a bit clearer now.

Your friend,
Rose

 

[Desdemona]

Thank you Shadows and Soron. Like my friend, Rose, I am finding this much clearer. I hate manipulative behavior myself and I can understand why this is unacceptable to a Dom/me. I think we were just making it harder to understand than it is.

 

[redelicious]

Slightly off topic thoughts . . .

I too can be very manipulative to gain control of a situation. But, I know in my heart that it creates disharmony - just because I get what I want does not mean that it is in my best interests. That is why I NEED the strength of another - One who can see through my foolishness and will not put up with it.

Thank you for the thread Des and giving me cause to think.

 

[A Desert Rose]

I do understand it a bit better but I still have a problem differentiating between gentle, playful and affection teasing and the seriousness of Topping.

Like Red, I can be manipulative, too. And I think sometimes being playful with a Dom and being manipulative can be misunderstood by him.

Rose

 

[redelicious]

I do understand it a bit better but I still have a problem differentiating between gentle, playful and affection teasing and the seriousness of Topping.

Like Red, I can be manipulative, too. And I think sometimes being playful with a Dom and being manipulative can be misunderstood by him.

Rose

Maybe it is a thing of degrees. You know, flirting or teasing can be pushed too far until it becomes manipulation????

Also, it would depend on the Dom's personality. Some would probably have a lower tolerance then others when it comes to teasing. Yes, they should be able to descern it from manipulation, but if you as the sub know they do not and you continue to push . . .

Or maybe that is just annoying behavior. Still I am sure it would earn a swat. And to bring it around to the topic - if a swat is what you wanted then we have topping from the bottom.

 

[Desdemona]

I do understand it a bit better but I still have a problem differentiating between gentle, playful and affection teasing and the seriousness of Topping.

Like Red, I can be manipulative, too. And I think sometimes being playful with a Dom and being manipulative can be misunderstood by him.

Rose

Rose this is the last part that is hard for me too. Maybe it comes with the development of the relationship that the Dom/me knows you well enough to realise when you are only playing and not manipulating.

I try very hard not to engage in manipulative behavior because I hate being manipulated myself. I get so much pleasure out of good behavior and I hate to disappoint my partner. I would be very upset with myself if I topped from the bottom.

 

[A Desert Rose]

Maybe it is a thing of degrees. You know, flirting or teasing can be pushed too far until it becomes manipulation????

Yes okay. This makes sense. Knowing when enough is enough, in other words, correct?

Rose

 

[redelicious]

Yes okay. This makes sense. Knowing when enough is enough, in other words, correct?

Rose

Yep. Thanks for simplifying for me.

 

[A Desert Rose]

Rose this is the last part that is hard for me too. Maybe it comes with the development of the relationship that the Dom/me knows you well enough to realise when you are only playing and not manipulating

Yes indeed. But in my case, I would hope he would not get frustrated with me early on and take a left in the fork in the road. LOL

I would hope he would hang around a bit and learn me and my ways before he would deduce that I am just a manipulative, little brat. Teasing is part of my nature.

Rose

 

[cellis]

Personally I don't see teasing as manipultive... I see it as part of the dance. You know that one you do when two people meet and they test the waters as to what is acceptible and what is not.

Teasing is fun and exciting and can be sexually charged. Teasing builds momentum for both parties involved.

Manipulation is almost always going to make one of the parties uncomfortable.

I have one rule about this. If you act out just to get a spanking then you will be disappointed. It will not be forth coming. There are other ways to discipline.

 

[Shadowsdream]

Yes indeed. But in my case, I would hope he would not get frustrated with me early on and take a left in the fork in the road. LOL

I would hope he would hang around a bit and learn me and my ways before he would deduce that I am just a manipulative, little brat. Teasing is part of my nature.

Rose

gentle, sweet and playful teasing is a far cry from manipulation. It is in fact generally adored and will get gentle, playful and erotic interchanges from an appreciative Dominant as a rule.

This type of behaviour enhances rather than detracts from most BDSM relationships when done out of scene and on rare occassions can even bring a laugh during small scenes.

Teasing example= a kiss on the nose of the Dominant with a wide eyes O O what did i do look!
Manipulative example=if you reallllly love me you will cuddle and kiss me instead of watching tv.

silly examples just to illustrate a point.

 

[Guest]

Very simply put: As a sub is he doing something just to get the reaction HE wants? If so he is are clearly trying to top from the bottom.

 

[zipman]

Lately...

I have recognized several posts that appear to me to be classic cases of "topping from the bottom." I think there have been some excellent posts to this thread already.

My thoughts on Topping from Bottom are that it is clearly a form of manipulation used by a sub to get their way and it can occur both in scene and out of scene.

Some examples:

1) Repeatedly questioning a command or decision. Some subs use this technique of repeated questioning to "wear out" the Dom. They hope that the Dom/me will get tired of having to answer the same thing over and over again. If the command is within the limits that have been agreed to, the sub should just comply. That is the purpose of establishing limits in the first place. If every command or decision becomes a conversation, then the Dom/me is no longer controlling the sub.

2) Trying to dictate how a Dom/me should act. A sub that says that they have done something wrong and are willing to get a spanking is an example of this. The sub wants the spanking and so misbehaves to get the Dom/me to spank her. If the sub was sincere about feeling badly, she would apologize and wait for the Dom/me to choose how they should be punished.

These are the 2 most common examples of topping from the bottom. There are others as well.

The essence of power exchange is that:
1) Dom/me and sub clearly establish limits and boundaries of acceptable behavior
2) Dom/me and sub discuss the level of control and decision making that the Dom/me will have.
3) Once these two things are clearly established, the sub needs to submit to the Dom/me.

They can still ask questions (at designated times), and should continue to communicate throughout the relationship. However, if you repeatedly question the same thing over and over again, you are not submitting, merely fooling yourself and topping your Dom/me.