Top-opolis

[Phoenix Stone]

IF he were asked "Why not slit her throat after, for an additional kick?" he'd say, "I'm not a psycho killer, just a john."

He might also say, 'I don't like to hurt people, just fuck them.'

Why not slit the throat of the guy who brings you a sandwich?

 

[bridgeburner]

Because it would make my bread soggy.

 

[Phoenix Stone]

Because it would make my bread soggy.

Yeah, I guess a soggy prostitute just isn't as much of a problem.

 

[rosco rathbone]

He might also say, 'I don't like to hurt people, just fuck them.'

Why not slit the throat of the guy who brings you a sandwich?

"It would be the same, just....different!"

"Look lady, I work for the phone company, so don't try to draw me into some twisted mazeof circular logic."

(sneers) "I could have killed you and nobody would have known!'

(sneers back) " I could have killed YOU and nobody would have known!"

 

[Marquis]

If the sin lies in the narcissism and not the fantasy, than I am marginally different than Dahmer. Certainly I am lucky enough to not have as violent or harmful compulsions as Dahmer, but I will do whatever weird shit my brain comes up with.

 

[Pure]

yes, marginally better. he'd killed his first by your age.

 

[bridgeburner]

Evesdream,


The first thing that struck me is that there's no such thing as a 7yo pedophile. It isn't unusual or perverted for children to be curious about or even attracted to other children.

It's also not unusual for children to excercise their power over one another in sexual ways. It's incredibly common because, contrary to much popular belief, children aren't "innocent" in a Precious Moments angel kind of way, they are "uncivilized" in an untutored, animal kind of way. They are unsophisticated and naive but they are not blank canvasses that only become soiled by exposure to the adult world.


The second thing that struck me was how early some kinks manifest themselves in our lives. The urge to dominate, the urge to submit, the fascination with violence or with martyrdom etc. These are things that I think start much earlier than most people believe.

We don't become sexual creatures at the Age of Consent or even at the onset of puberty. We are born sexual creatures and to deny that this is so is to ignore the first 10 years of our sexual development.

-B

from "Conversations with a Pedophile: In the Interest of Our Children. By Amy Hammel-Zabin

I was 7 when I first offended. I lured a boy of 5 into a storage shed and manipulated him into pulling down his pants and underpants. It was in the middle of summer, and the child was wearing no shirt, shoes or socks, so when he submitted to my demands, he was standing naked before me. Once he had stood there for a moment or two, staring at the floor to avoid my eyes, I told him to get dressed, and after bribing him to keep our secret, we left.

Although I had no physical contact with the boy, the absolute high came for me the instant the child undid the snap to open his pants. I felt as if electricity were pouring through me. I enjoyed making him stand there, but the rest of his act, actually taking the pants down, was not nearly as exciting as when he made the first move indicating that he was going to do what I wanted.

discuss...

 

[Marquis]

yes, marginally better. he'd killed his first by your age.

True. Also, I suppose I would do my best to suppress more severely antisocial compulsions if I ever had them.

 

[Pure]

I think Bridge makes some good points, and I was already thinking of adding a footnote. When a 7 and a 5 year old do something they agree on, there's no sexual assault; possibly no exploitation.

So my comments about 'antisocial' etc., were to be applied to the 'pedophile' mentioned in the posting, but not the 7 yr old at the time of the story: I.e., in making my comments I assumed that the 7 year old has grown up (to 20 or more), and his 'prey' are not two years younger, but still around 5. And, as the story suggests, the adult still feels that 'rush' and exhilaration he did at 7.

This assumption is based on reading the following, indicating that an adult is speaking:

//"Conversations with a Pedophile: In the Interest of Our Children." By Amy Hammel-Zabin//

I was 7 when I first offended.

The fellow, now criminal, feels a wrong was done, and possibly the younger boy was unduly pressured or cajoled, but there may have been no offense that's prosecutable.

I'd still like to know what Eve is looking for....

 

[bridgeburner]

Pure,

Yes, I should have mentioned that I understood the excerpt is from the words of a now adult pedophile.

I have not read the book but my assumption from the title is that it is intended for the education of parents and child-care providers so that they might be better informed and therefore better able to protect the children in their care.

My problem with such books is that they often are not objective enough to be truly helpful but, rather tend to make an apology for the criminal, stir hysteria in parents and the ranks of child-care professionals and generally promote overly-politicized bad science which ultimately hurts more than it helps.

Frints, how many hysterical parents or teachers are going to shove little Johnny into therapy or some sort of correctional facility because they catch him wagging his willie at little Suzie? It sounds ridiculous, but we're talking about a society that has prosecuted parents for taking pictures of their kids running through sprinklers in their underpants, jailed children for playing doctor with one another and insists that any hint of sexuality in children is tantamount to a neon sign proclaiming them future psychopaths.

Don't any of these people remember what it was like to be children?

Children regularly play power games and exploit one another. They tease, taunt, abuse and manipulate. These are tactics available to all sentient creatures. It's not some malevolent gift bestowed by the bite of an apple at puberty.

You always hear the lament from the older set (anyone over 25 will qualify) that "kids today" are somehow more corrupt and less responsible than "back in my day". Is it ever really true? I highly doubt it. My suspicion is that most children are pretty oblivious to the danger they live in and consequently grow up to believe that there wasn't any danger.


And I have just realized that I'm sort of ranting off topic.

oops!


-B

 

[evesdream]

It's also not unusual for children to excercise their power over one another in sexual ways. It's incredibly common because, contrary to much popular belief, children aren't "innocent" in a Precious Moments angel kind of way, they are "uncivilized" in an untutored, animal kind of way. They are unsophisticated and naive but they are not blank canvasses that only become soiled by exposure to the adult world.
-B

I agree. The story is sensational because it describes an event which happens to precede criminal molestation. But then compound that with the grown-up fact that people of the BDSMe are vilified for explicitly stating, that sex is about power, that relationships are about power. Similarly people feel strange and threatened when sexuality between children is not of the necking in the woods variety, but is explicity about power under and over.

 

[bridgeburner]

BDSMe are vilified for explicitly stating, that sex is about power, that relationships are about power

I think this is more common in recent years because of the constant campaigning that rape is not about sex but about power. As if sex and power were opposites.

It is one of the most moronic slogans I've ever heard in my life.

Of course rape is about sex. If rape wasn't about sex then it would just be assault.

Now, rape is not about how sexy the victim looks or about "needing to get laid", but rape is most definitely about sex. Power and rage and sex.

Unfortunately, we've got a bunch of idiots pounding their breasts about how real sex, sane sex, good sex, holy goddess-blessed sex is only ever about equality between partners or better yet worship of the female essence.

As a feminist that just pisses me the fuck off.

It is not only sexist but it makes for bad social policy. Just because you tell people that the world is flat doesn't make it so.


-B

 

[evesdream]

"what was eve looking for?"

I'm not looking for anything specifically, I was hoping to see a good discussion.

The excerpt did bring up all sorts of swirly tangential ideas about non-consent at that age. Although the author frames it as an offense, as Bridge was pointing out the excerpt is a description of a sexual event between children, and children are sexual with each other all the time, nothing particularly wrong there. How are lines of consent drawn between children? One person was manipulated, although I wouldn't say that it fits neatly into my idea of bullying. Yet when he calls it an offence, I think he senses that his own fundamental intent and his mode of operation has never changed, only his age and the legality of the act has, and his sense of guilt & shame.

As I read on, I'm not sure whether he is attempting to define his pedophilia as a special sexuality, I think he is, but I was impressed with the language of D/s that he was using when he described why the event was important to him; that instant, what he enjoyed. It was more than a 7 year old getting his way - it was an assertion resulting in submission that charged the moment up for at least one of the participants.

When I let my mind wander, I wondered what exactly was asserted and then, because the description is seductively simliar to what I know, what is asserted later on between happy adults. Pure, you had brought up narcissism (and a great opportunity to split hairs). At age 7 did he assert his dominance over his friend, or did he simply impose his most naked narcissistic urges. Same thing?

 

[evesdream]

Originally posted by bridgeburner

Of course rape is about sex. If rape wasn't about sex then it would just be assault.

Now, rape is not about how sexy the victim looks or about "needing to get laid", but rape is most definitely about sex. Power and rage and sex.

Unfortunately, we've got a bunch of idiots pounding their breasts about how real sex, sane sex, good sex, holy goddess-blessed sex is only ever about equality between partners or better yet worship of the female essence.

As a feminist that just pisses me the fuck off...



Hah! I think you light my fire

 

[rosco rathbone]

Unfortunately, we've got a bunch of idiots pounding their breasts about how real sex, sane sex, good sex, holy goddess-blessed sex is only ever about equality between partners or better yet worship of the female essence.

As a feminist that just pisses me the fuck off...

Actually, that all was laid to rest 5-10 years ago. For the real pop-cultural state of the art, see my la cosa nostra thread. Violence against women is In!

 

[bridgeburner]

Violence against women has always been in, but I haven't seen much evidence of slackening off in the whole twat-headed New Ageiness that passes for the liberal, enlightened mind these days.

It's where the Left and Right meet on the back end --- sex is eeeevil because only bad animalistic men are obsessed with it OR sex is eeeevil because only hedonistic sinners are obsessed with it.

How 'bout a link to the thread? Or can I search on la cosa nostra?

 

[bridgeburner]

scratch that, I found it. I didn't realize it was a new thread.

 

[bridgeburner]

Evesdream,

At age 7 did he assert his dominance over his friend, or did he simply impose his most naked narcissistic urges. Same thing?

I think it can be the same thing but isn't inherently so. I think it depends on whether the person is kinked toward making others obey or serving his own needs. Either way there is certainly enjoyment for the compellor, but there's a subtle difference between making you show me your cock because I want to see it and making you show me your cock because you don't want me to see it.

-B

 

[rosco rathbone]

Evesdream,



I think it can be the same thing but isn't inherently so. I think it depends on whether the person is kinked toward making others obey or serving his own needs. Either way there is certainly enjoyment for the compellor, but there's a subtle difference between making you show me your cock because I want to see it and making you show me your cock because you don't want me to see it.

-B

teehee hyphen B looks like the smiley for buck toothed cyclops!

 

[bridgeburner]

hmmm....I thought it looked more like a little steamer with a big o'l sack.

;->

 

[evesdream]

Evesdream,



I think it can be the same thing but isn't inherently so. I think it depends on whether the person is kinked toward making others obey or serving his own needs. Either way there is certainly enjoyment for the compellor, but there's a subtle difference between making you show me your cock because I want to see it and making you show me your cock because you don't want me to see it.

-B

Good point

 

[rosco rathbone]

never let it be said that I'm not prescient....

I've been talking up gnomery ...the sexual rage of the "new man"...the incoherent counterforce to the caring and sharing...for going on 5 years now. So I'm rather chuffed when I pick up today' s Observer and see that popular culture is catching on....

note the bold-faced section.

Stuff It, Emo Boy!
by Rachel Donadio, Sheelah Kolhatkar and Anna Schneider-Mayerson



Recently Rebecca Hackemann, a 32-year-old artist, had a distressing third date with a banker type she’d met on Nerve.com. He flipped out when Ms. Hackemann showed up 20 minutes late after some trouble on the subway. "You know, you just can’t be late like this," whined the athletic, 42-year-old fellow after she had sat down and apologized profusely. "You don’t know what it does to me emotionally," he continued. "It really affects me, and I find it really upsetting. Next time, we’re just going to have to make sure you’re on time.

"It’s partly to do with my past," he added after they had placed their orders.

The banker is emblematic of an alarming moment in gender relations here in New York: the rampant spread of the emo man (or perhaps more appropriately, emo boy). Originally referring to a floppy-limbed, "sincere" indie-rock movement, emo gathered speed during the Clinton feel-your-pain era. Now it has landed squarely in the laps of disgusted Manhattan women like Ms. Hackemann.

"If he can’t handle me being late, how would he be able to handle something bigger?" she asked of her now-dumped date. "If he broke down emotionally from that, then you assume that this person is very weak."

Emo boy is currently manifested on the big screen in the persona of Tobey Maguire’s Spider-Man 2. In the last scene of the movie, Kirsten Dunst, as the long-suffering M.J., says, "Go get him, killer," lovingly giving the hero her blessing to go out and fight more crime rather than consummate their relationship. And she just left another man at the altar! Why won’t Spidey just do the deed?

Because Spidey—unlike Superman, Batman and the Terminator—is an emo boy. It’s not that he’s femmey or secretly gay. He’s straight, all right. But this new breed of sensitive straight guy is tricky. He looks masculine enough, in a scruffy, tending-toward-boyish way. But he’s vulnerable, emotional, subject to mood swings and fits of self-searching. He talks about his feelings. A lot. His fears and secret aspirations, his family pressures, his anxiety about whether he’ll ever make partner, or get that book contract, or head that nonprofit organization—all are comfortable topics for emo boy. He’ll sound sensitive. He is sensitive—but often more sensitive to his own emotions than to those of the woman sitting across from him at dinner. She may very well be sipping her pinot noir and wondering why her emo boy is droning on at such length about himself. Could it be that what she thought at first blush was sensitivity turns out to be good old-fashioned self-absorption?

Current celebrity emo boys include Ms. Dunst’s real-life boyfriend (as of press time) Jake Gyllenhaal, Garden State director-star Zach Braff and Coldplay front man/Gwyneth Paltrow husband Chris Martin, who celebrated the birth of their daughter Apple by posting a spoof rock video with lyrics written for his newborn. "I’ll be there through the thin and the thick," he sings. (Can you imagine Mick Jagger doing such a thing?) "I’m gonna clean up all the poo and the sick."

"It was humiliating for him!" said Schuyler Brown, a trend-spotter for Euro RSCG and a single gal herself.

How, these women are asking, can you dream about snagging a rock star type when even the actual rock stars are behaving this way?

"I’m 30, and the topic of conversation among women my age," Ms. Brown continued, "is: When did men get all the baggage?"

‘A Little, Tender, Vulnerable Look’

"I think emo boys are part of a post-feminist scenario, but it’s not making women very happy," said Rachel Elder, a freelance writer who gained notoriety in February for posting an online rant against what she called "whimpsters." "They are very fragile—but also ready to explode!" she added.

Constance Wyndham, a 24-year-old art critic who lives in the East Village, also decried the role that women have played in creating the emo-boy type. "All of this falls under the broad category of the collateral damage of feminism," she said. But she also detected another, sinister strain of influence: "The emo archetype is actually a French man—ambiguously sexual, creative intellectual types, tortured poets, they might say, who are actually deeply misogynistic and harbor the most archaic notions of femininity or male-female interaction. They have a terrible penchant for public displays of affection, listening to Robbie Williams, but also for anal sex—which is more or less the only way men see they can dominate women fully and aggressively."

On some level, though, these women understand that emo boy is caught in difficult situation. He knows it’s time to grow up, but he worries that he is somehow not equipped to ever become a full-fledged adult man. Besides, don’t women want men to relate more? "There’s a fine line these guys are walking, because women have always liked the sensitive man, especially the sensitive-artist type," Ms. Brown said.

But emo boy is not your mother’s "sensitive New Age guy." "He’s not Alan Alda, who’s a little too sappy," as Sharon Graubard, the creative director of ESP Trendlab, a trend-spotting firm, explained. "You could talk to him and he could express feelings, but I feel like the new emo man is more arty, more poetic, has more of an interior life."

Ah, the interior life. What that means, more than anything else, is that he’s conflicted—and he needs a woman like M.J. to support him, to help him keep his head on straight and, above all, to listen to him as he goes on and on and on. At least she’s this way in the Spider-Man 2 script—written, it must be noted, by a team headed by literary emo boy Michael Chabon.

But here on the ground in Gotham, a different story is emerging, as women flee emos in droves.

"We gave men license to be more openly emotional, and they took it and ran with it," griped Ms. Brown, who said she first discovered emo boys when she was tracking the metrosexual trend. "We were having fun identifying guys who were metrosexual," she said. "At first it was favorable: ‘Where do I meet one?’ Then one day the tide turned, and all I was hearing from women was how their men were too sensitive." Emo boys, she said, are not exactly the same as metrosexuals: "‘Metrosexual’ has overtones of vanity, whereas emo boys are wearing their hearts on their sleeves."

That’s not all they’re wearing. Emo boys are known to favor soft, floppy vintage T-shirts, flip-flops and low-riding women’s jeans that display a hint of pubic fuzz. "It’s like longer hair and introverted and sensitive," said Ms. Graubard. "Being skinny without muscles is a big part of it."

You can tell an emo boy, according to Ms. Graubard, by the snug fit of his clothing. "They wear a shrunken jacket. It gives them a little tender, boyish, vulnerable look—like they outgrew their clothes," she said.

It’s an aesthetic best captured by the photographer Ryan McGinley, 26, who happens to be gay himself, but who has made a nice career out of snapping pictures of his sensitive-looking, boyish but tough Lower East Side friends. His work was displayed at the Whitney last year, and his diminutive book of photos is for sale at agnes b. stores.

Or, of course, the emo-boy aesthetic is on display in the endless proliferation of bands that provide the earnest, searching soundtrack to emo boy’s life—Wilco, Bright Eyes, Idlewild, Death Cab for Cutie… the list is inexhaustible.

‘I Have a Small Penis’

Women who have dated emo boys report being turned off by unsolicited, uncomfortable disclosures.

When the banker called Ms. Hackemann after their ill-fated third date, he said, "You know, I’m a communicator, and I bring things up."

"It was too much relationship talk too early about nothing," she told The Observer. "It had a feel of him being a little controlling in a way: From now on, if I’m a little bit late, he’ll be really hurt. It puts this huge pressure on you. And you want to feel relaxed when you’re on a date. That was the worst feeling of it. It made him look so weak and unattractive in my eyes, and maybe a little bit messed up."

Victoria, a spangly-topped bartender at the Village Idiot, rolled her eyes as she recalled her last date with an emo boy: "Before we even went out he said to me, ‘I’m really great in relationships, but I have a small penis.’"

"A guy told me during our first date that he had a small penis!" echoed Lorrie, a 35-year-old editor. "Why would you do that? It’s bad enough finding out the natural way, but for the love of God! Then he pulled out a notebook on which he had written questions to think of to ask me, and offered to read me poetry and Marx. Afterward he proceeded to push me via e-mail, so I got absolutely rude to him. It was very clear that he kept thinking he could secure a second date by deconstructing my behavior," she continued. "He may have thought it was clever and charming to think that my emotional boundaries are a crude front that I want him to tear down."

Emo man does not believe in holding back. "Another thing that falls under ‘too much information,’" said Lorrie, "and yet, tragically, has been said to me by more than one person post-sex is, ‘Sorry that took so long—I just masturbated a lot when I was a kid.’"

Another cautionary tale of bedding an emo man occurred on last week’s episode of Six Feet Under, when Claire Fisher finally broke out of her shell and invited hottie Jimmy on a date.

"I’ve got a date with the Matthew Barney of LAC-Arts [her art school], even though I’m so not the Björk of LAC-Arts," she tells her brother.

Back at Jimmy’s house, the couple start to make out on his bed. "Tell me what you like," he says, as Claire, on top, nuzzles into his neck.

"I like you," she replies.

"No, tell me what you like me to do," he says.

"Uh, just do whatever you want and I’ll let you know how it works out for me," she huffs.

Jimmy starts to get flustered: "Why won’t you tell me?"

"Look, I don’t have like a checklist I need to go through," she huffs back.

He shifts and hovers over her. "You like to have your nipples played with?"

"Not if we have to talk about it," she says.

"How else am I supposed to know what to do here, Claire?" he pleads.

"You’re telling me you don’t?" she says.

In a way, Claire is cutting to the heart of the emo-boy issue: Are men capable of being sensitive without coming across as tiresome, passive yet demanding wimps?

Likewise, couldn’t Claire be a little more forgiving? Couldn’t she read into his honest vulnerability not only inexperience, but some attempt to be the sensitive guy women claim to desire?

‘Women Are Somewhat Conflicted.’

The fact is that women seem to have extremely low thresholds of tolerance for men’s self-doubt and mood swings.

Dr. Judy Kuriansky, a Manhattan psychologist and the author of The Complete Idiot’s Guide to Dating, has a kindlier perspective on the emo boy.

"This is the type of man that women have been screaming and begging for for years," she said a bit reprovingly. "I’ve done innumerable research studies about this: After 20 years of asking what are the top three qualities that women want in a man, what comes out overwhelmingly from women is that they want the more communicative man, the sensitive and romantic man. That is overwhelming. They want the cluster of qualities that goes along with a more communicative man who speaks his feelings more, who is more intimate, more open."

It turns out that’s where the problems start. "As a result of all that, women are somewhat conflicted," Dr. Kuriansky said. "And this is what has put men in a tailspin. What I hear from men is: ‘You’ve asked me to be this way, but there is still a group of women who still go for the bad boy.’ I find it highly upsetting. I’m empathetic towards men who find it confusing."

But Dr. Anna Fels, an Upper East Side psychiatrist and the author of Necessary Dreams: Ambition in Women’s Changing Lives, comes down more on the ladies’ side.

"I would say that historically, and right up through the present, one of the things that defined femininity—especially in the white, middle-class culture—is women listening to men and being their audience, their support system, and really asking for relatively little of that in return," she said. "There’s been a really disproportionate share of attention of all kinds that men demand and assume as their due."

As for the rise of the emo boy, "Men have always assumed that they get the lion’s share of air time," Dr. Fels said. "It may be that this is the new fashion in how they monopolize the air time: If this is how women want it, I will talk in these terms. But it’s the same assumption that they will speak more, be listened to more, be supported more."

If women won’t do the listening, there are always therapists. Just ask the heavy-metal band Metallica, currently at the multiplex in the documentary Metallica: Some Kind of Monster, which turns out to be a veritable emo-boy manifesto.

What is one to think, watching the headbanging vomit-rockers gathered around a conference table, eating fruit and saying things like, "It’s not about what you say, it’s about how I feel"? A strange cognitive dissonance sets in, watching grown men in tight pants and tattoos pay $40,000 a month to a shrink who introduces them to their long-repressed emotions and gives them carte blanche to elucidate every last nuance of their feelings.

"These guys became famous at age 17 for being the icons of macho aggression—completely shut down, not talking about your feelings, just being tough guys. So all these resentments and issues built up beyond the norm for the past 20 years, and as soon as somebody walked into their life who tried to give them the tools to communicate, they sort of gravitated toward it," said Joe Berlinger, the co-director of Some Kind of Monster (very emo-boy for a movie to need two directors!).

"I think they’re the best example of the toughest of the tough guys really looking within. It’s interesting how it affected them musically," Mr. Berlinger added. "These are tough guys singing hard music about tearing down all the institutions and the establishment around you that pins you down. Basically, that’s their message to disaffected youth. I was very interested to see, sitting in there in therapy with these guys, would the icons of macho aggression—a band known for its anti-authoritarian rage, a band fueled by dysfunction, the clash of egos—if you mollify that discontent, if you talk about your feelings, if you extinguish the flame of anger that has propelled them, I wondered what it was going to do to the music. And, interestingly, the music is more aggressive than ever."

Of course it is.

In addition to the music, opening the floodgates has an undeniably positive effect on the band members: They have several teary-eyed confessionals; the hard drinker among them enters detox; their marriages survive—well, at least until the documentary was done filming.

Since March, as Page Six reported Tuesday, drummer Lars Ullrich and his wife, Skylar, have been split.

—additional reporting by Noelle Hancock and Jessica Joffe

 

[Netzach]

Weenie men

nice article in last month's BUST also about the inherent selfish qualities of the needy sensitive wimp.

The metrosexual/wimp divide is very fasicnating to me.

I've always thought my most neeeeedy worshippers were sissies. Without a doubt. Much like unstable femsubs, or extremely manipulative and shrewd dominant wimmin.

oversharing as abuse?

 

[rosco rathbone]

I can't help but deeply enjoy the "you asked for it-you got it!" side of this whole thing.

 

[Netzach]

Nah, we never got it. We got lipservice and posing and pretending, but the idea of guys treating us as more or less human beings like them is still elusive.

It's just another way to get laid. Or not.