Too much estrogen on poetry forums?

[daughter]

Poets,

What is your experience? I have populated online communities for a few years and on most, there are more women than men. When it come to poetry forums, how does this affect our writing, the tone community?

I'd really want to hear from the men. How does it feel to be the minority? Do you feel the uneveness of the demographics sometimes unduly affect the way you write? Do we writers unconsciously write to the audience, and if we do and the audience is female, how do we tend to write? What differences, if any, would there be in our writing and in the group dynamics if there were greater balance or more men than women?

Very interested in hearing your views.

Peace,

daughter

 

[karmadog]

I dig hangin' wit da chicks

Seriously, though, I think literary writing in toto has taken on a feminine cast. I'm not saying that's a bad thing, but there are very few masculine writers in the literary field.

Understand that I don't mean male or female when I use those terms, I'm talking about style. Sort of the way that romance languages have masculine or feminine nouns, but they don't have anything to do with gender.

And to be honest, though I've been thinking about what makes a novel, story, or poem have a gender for years, I can't yet explain the difference. I do know that what I've read by Annie Proulx is masculine, while what I've read by John Updike is feminine.

As far as writers here, I won't say anything for fear of offending them, although none would be intended. But I will say that most of the poets shift from one to another depending on what they are writing about.

Part of the issue in the publishing world is that women read far, far more than men do. How many bookclubs do you know of that are made up primarily of men? Of women?

I don't know enough about poetry to make any global judgements, or even opinons really, so I won't.

 

[daughter]

More questions

KD,

I knew you would know what I was talking about. I understand completely what you're saying about the author's voice and style.

If there were more men or a more masculine style of writing on our boards, how would that affect the dynamics of the group?

Are we missing something valuable because of the lack of this voice? I think so. While I am very happy with Lotus, I know that there is clearly the absence of the masculine. That is not a slight against the women, is a desire for diversity.

I know good men writers, but they are few and scattered. I have to go several places to read their works.

Peace,

daughter

 

[Lauren Hynde]

How does it feel to be the minority?

Are they, really? I sometimes have that feeling too, but I just checked my buddy list and made a quick survey on the active threads, and I think it's pretty well balanced, at least here in Literotica.

You may be right about the voice echoed in most of the poems, but even so, most of us shift from one record to the other frequently.

And K-dog: As far as writers here, I think you can go ahead. No one will be offended.

 

[karmadog]

Personally, I like estrogen. I snort it like cocaine.

I don't think a woman would be offended by hearing that she wrote something masculine, but I think male writers (we being touchy and hormone ridden every week of the month. A period: Pshaw! I've had raging hormones since I was ten. I've got rafts of punctuation problems. !$#@^&#! I'm a complete Strunk and White melded with MLA, CMS, and the fucking NYTimes all rolled into a throbbing, punctuated mass of hormonal chubbies) might be offended by the reverse.

Particularly Senna Jawa who writes like a girly man (kidding, SJ, kidding).

Actually, what I was really thinking was that someone who aims for one writing style might be upset that I felt they missed the mark. Even though nothing could be more subjective.

 

[OT]

I'd really want to hear from the men. How does it feel to be the minority?

If we are in fact, in the minority, it feels comfortable.

I grew up in a stereotypical old fashioned conservative small town where ships are made of wood, men are made of steel, emotions and crying are for babies, and real men are strong and silent and don't write poetry. If a man should write a poem, then by golly it darn well better be to a woman!

So with all that baggage in my background, thinking that there may be a few extra females in the audience makes the environment less intimidating for coming out of the closet as a writer.

 

[Lauren Hynde]

Well, if I'm trying to aim for one writing style and miss my mark, I'd like to know.

 

[karmadog]

Don't be silly, Lauren.

Your aim is true.

 

[Lauren Hynde]

*chuckles*

I wasn't talking about me specifically. Just reminding you that this is the Poetry Feedback & Discussion forum.

 

[karmadog]

Well, that's true, Lauren, but since I'm a man I have a hard time sharing my feelings.

Back on subject, I like hanging out with women. In RL, my best friends have always been chicks, broads, or dames. If this board were male dominated, I wouldn't be here as much.

 

[ChaosKitten]

hmmmm.....

Well, I checked my buddy list also, and it does seem to lead a bit towaeds the girly side, but, I don't think that's a problem. I think maybe that the men are less vocal. ::shrugs shoulders:: But then again, maybe not.
lol, and I agree on some of the men having very effiminate work.
Kitten

 

[daughter]

Different Styles

OT,

When we're talking point of view, how do men and women write differently? You said that if a man wrote poetry it better be to a woman. This is the kind of thing I'm talking about. Our writing is influenced by our experiences so gender is a factor. I'm not asking us to debate the degree of the factor, just to acknowledge that it exists and how it is expressed in our writings.

For example, men aren't going to write about menopuase or breastfeeding. Conversely, a woman typically doesn't write about father/son conflicts. With fewer men on a board, these kinds of themes are treated less often in the poetry we are reading on a daily basis. Take an example from prose, Ernest Hemingway. He clearly wrote from a male, masculine perspective. Some will call him a sexist, too, but I don't want to debate that Hemingway was macho rather how his work differs from a woman writer of his time. And how does Hemingway differ from Laurence or Fitzgerald?

When we ran our "In the Minds of Men" issue last year, the writing was decidedly different than what our contributors wrote for "More Than A Bone", our women's issue.

Lauren, there are more men here at Lit, but overall, poetry boards are dominated by women. Most board operators are women. Book clubs are predominately women. Like KD said, the current state of literature is largely influenced by women writers and readers. I can't speak definitively, but I venture to say that has not always been the case. American literature, classical literature was dominated by men. There is an obvious disparity between what was and what we are seeing today at least on our public forums.

Peace,

daughter

 

[daughter]

So there are differences?

KD's remark that if this was more male, he wouldn't care to be here. That says there are definitive differences.

I'm not campaigning against female dominate boards. I am asking us to discuss the differences when the demographics are more one way than another and how men and women write differently. How do we respond to the differences in writing styles and themes? If the demographics were different, what kind of works would we see?

Peace,

daughter

 

[Sweetwood]

My response

Fasten your seatbelts!

Poetry is a fine art. It is not readily accessible to the majority of the population. It is a form of expression which has traditonally been woven into the rituals of courtship. I don't mean just courtship between men and women, but courtship between persons. It is mind candy of the sophisticated kind.

North America has cultivated a male image especially over the last 65-100 years, that has little room for sophistication, much room for macho, frontier type, reliable, providing but all too often too dumb eternal boy of the boys club. Don't get me wrong. I don't think they are really dumb, just the image doesn't allow room for activity outside that frame. Consequently, the world of poetry is institutionally closed for those that find it hard through their fears or life circumstances to break from the mold. One of the worst perpetrators in that field are women in general. Hell, I once got castigated because I was wearing Birkenstock sandals in Alabama. I embarrassed my date. Often if a man writes poetry, he's cute, romantic, gay and all of that, which perpetuates the stereotype.

On the other end of the spectrum, if a man writes in this world, and writes masculine poetry, we find it often harsh, abrasive or crude. Or we liken it to country and western. The result unfortunately is, that we stereotype the writing or the writer and the consequence is that we don't listen to the voice anymore. If we did, we could possible find a way to "hear" ourselves into something quite new and different.

The third tier of this evil triumvirat is the poo-pooing of something we don't understand as not appropriate and "just badly written" because it is different from what we are used to. Since we are used to the majority of writing being from women, we just simply check our judgement at the door and go for the sweet, the intellectual, the feminine, the subtle, and the usual fare. I can smell a women's poem 150 miles off.

The invidious nature of this problem is how to get the men in the door, when their efforts to be masculine in their writing fails before they even get a foot in. I tend to think that my poetry finds it's character by the configuration of my brain, the constitution of my soul and the fact that I have testicles and, thank God still produce a healthy amount of testosterone. ( I have been told, that men only have sufficient blood supply to run either the brain or the genitals at one time. Note this stereotype). However, when the latter gets the greater share of my writing design gestures, the readers (and we have heard that they are in the majority women) shut down and leave.

I think it is time to examine our premises on which we pass judgement on the poetry around us. It takes some sophistication and subtlety to disrobe from the garments of our stereotypes and approach a writing with the openess it deserves. I am, no question, the offender in this department, as much as any of my neighbours. The humaness of all the writing we have the fortune to read here and many other serious places is really what we need to search for. Even if we dislike it's flavor initially. The fast pace of internet poetry (you'll often find, that a poem posted will get a response within the first 10 minutes, but certainly in less than under two hours) leaves no room for a right tasting of that flavor.

I try to live with the poems I read for a while. And I rather be silent than comment if I can't find the key to unlock it's treasure. It might get destroyed.

I'll take you for another fast ride.

Topical writing finds me as a WASP often in a curious place. Any attempt to write about points of view that are structurally not my own ends up me writing contrived, hypocritical or worse politically correct. I am in the unfortunate position, that I have no interesting background to write from. I am just a white, middle aged man who needs the ability to creatively express himself. I have no systemic "issues" that might peak someones special interest. Thus I compete in a world that is truly filled with special interests. Given our historical development, I have already two strikes against me, I am white and I am a man. Thirdly, because I am writing poetry which is sometimes romantic, gentle, etc., I am gay, or at least heterosexually confused, and certainly not masculine.

Where does that leave me? Not in a position of power.

And you wonder why men don't frequent poetry boards.

Poetically yours

Sweetwood

 

[daughter]

Just a WASP

Sweetwood

You are smarter and too talented to fall on that whine about not having any drama to write about.

There's Pinsky, Collins, Stevens, Levine and a host of men poets that have a large audience, and they aren't popular for writing about their miserable lives. And we embrace the sensitive men like Neruda, Lyons and Soto.

Women dominate poetry forums online. We do not dominate in the publishing industry.

It sounds like you are experiencing what women have felt when they have entered arenas dominated by men and the barriers they have bumped against. We didn't leave. We didn't remain silent and neither should you. Don't back out or remain quiet because the reception is not as favorable as you'd like.

We can't embrace something different if you hold it back. I have missed your critiques and comments. Your insight and interpretations are valued and sorely missed when you are silent.

Your writing can be cutting edge at times, and sensitive, romantic at others. Readers can appreciate a range. Gives a greater credit. Critiquing either style isn't a rejection of your gender or your style, Martin. Is it possibe a particular piece simply doesn't resonate with a reader?

Peace,

daughter

 

[karmadog]

d, I think that women won their assault on the literary walls in the seventies. Today, a literary male author who has real skills is sort of seen as the Great White Hope. Too often, they end up being Gerry Cooney, or they sell out and write to the Oprah audience. But most authors are either a flash in the pan or an eventual sellout.

Part of the problem, I think, with getting men interested in the arts has to do with the things that Sweetwood was talking about. Males have been confused about what their gender roles are since the seventies. The traditional roles have been torn down as being 'wrong', but nothing has replaced them.

Now when there was a traditional role, I think it was easier to play against type. Now, but not for much longer I suspect, all gender roles are on shaky ground. Any movement may cause the whole house of cards to fall. (Mixing metaphors by the way is not gender specific)

It's contradictory, but if the old macho roles were still in play, it would be easier to be successful 'playing against type' on occasion.

Probably a load of crap, but there it is.

PS Sweetwood, it's not the experience, it's the perception.

 

[Sweetwood]

Daughter:

I am really not whining that much ( even though I am a hypochondriac).

If you ask yourself the question why men are in the minority on poetry boards, I think some of the answers lie in what I wrote.

The boards are often such, that I get the feeling I have to stretch my pinky when drinking tea and can't fart. I also like to slouch on the chesterfield and tell dirty jokes and make suggestive comments. And why do I have to take my boots off every time I come in?

I know, could there be a more male stereotype?

Probably not! I am also sensitive, caring, loving and gentle. Like to take my knife and hone the edge until it stings. Want to hold babies and kiss them. Drive a Z3 from BMW like a moron. Be dirty, literally and figuratively, and then take bath. Many of these activities are considered inappropriate on a poetry board. Unfortunately.

sweetwood

 

[daughter]

stereotypes

KD,

What you say makes sense and helps me to understand why fewer men are interested in participating. If men are confused or frustrated about their roles, I can vouch for one woman who is equally frustrated with trying to understand what men want from their audience.

Sweetwood, who says women don't care if they fart or don't care to "appropriate" at all times either? Maybe you should tell a dirty joke and see what happens. Are you saying women are uptight and overly concerned with etiquette?

I feel as if you want to prove me wrong when I'm not trying to be right about anything. I asked a question. I asked for your opinion.
And I don't care to speak for groups, I'll speak for me. While my tone often comes off confrontational and aggressive (masculine traits I believe), the woman in me simply wants to talk. We don't have to challenge each other's point and prove our opinion is right.

Everything doesn't resonate with every member or reader. Are we going to chastised a reader when we feel she doesn't get something, when she fails to recognizes the beauty of an artist's vision or perspective?

I respond from what I know, and what I know is limited. What then can we reasonably expect from our audience? Perhaps their silence when they fear they cannot please the artist. Maybe, boards seem so pc because readers don't won't to offend or be criticized for saying what they think.

You are coming from a well of experience and thought much deeper than I can digest in one sitting. We started this discussion about demographics on poetry boards. Can we start small and specific and then branch out?

Peace,

daughter

 

[Senna Jawa]

It's not that men withdrew from poetry (on the contrary, they are on increase) but that women came forward in such large numbers, larger than ever.

Women were present in poetry for centuries and millenia. Somehow not among skalds (I don't think so) but certainly in ancient Greece, in China and Japan, and in this century, from its early decades, in Poland, Russia, USA... They made their impact against the odds. Now, that the entry into the field is about equally accessible to both gender, women may dominate poetry, it has to be seen.

(In Poland, but not in Russia, there were among women also prominent prose writers).

Are women really dominating boards these days? Possibly, I don't know, they certainly are active. I think that on rec.arts.poems, which perhaps still has more participants than any other, by far, the distribution is about fifty-fifty these days (or men may be still more numerous??); and several homosexuals of either gender appear there (openly) too.

In the beginning of Internet, it was crowded by those who had an access and were familiar with computers, i.e. by computer industry professionals and by academic crowd from engineering and computer departments, plus physics. No wonder that men dominated Internet in those days. In particular, during the early years of rec.arts.poems there were more outstanding poets among men than among women. But I remember some from those years, and their numbers were on increase.

Of what happened later one can see from the names of the autors of "A Small Garlic Press" chapbooks.

When Michael McNeil lead his Zero City private list, in 1995, he had collected participants from the cream of rec.arts.poems. There were more men but not by any significant margin. Off hand I remember 6 women and 7 men, not counting one crazy, histerical man who showed up for a short time.

Women were well represented on the haiku and tanka shiki discussion lists, both in terms of their numbers and of the quality of their work. The gender split was about even.

Regards,

 

[Senna Jawa]

Insane Poets Guild

I forgot to mention that one, founded, owned and ran by a teenager, and dominated by teenagers. Among the "elderly minority" (say 22+ years old) the gender split was about even or there were even more men. Among teenagers there were more girls than boys. It was a very interesting board!!! The interactions among the teens, and between the teens and "elderly" were unique, going far beyond poetry.

 

[daughter]

boards vs press

Senna,

I am probably not as well read as you, but I agree in print I can find a good number of women poets and don't see a noticeable difference in the numbers. It is only online.

It is only online, too, that I see women writing more romantic poetry. That is not to say we don't tackle other themes, but depending on the skill set and experience of the members, romance is a dominant theme. I do not see this to be true in the publishing world among either sex.

I hope more men will participate and like sweetwood said post more "edgy" stuff. I read others because I want to hear someone other than myself. So bring on the edge. Even if I bristle initially, I'd like to be exposed to different views.

I didn't always like certain vegetables years ago, but my dietary habits have evolved. Put it on the plate.

Peace,

daughter

 

[Star At Sunrise]

Opinion

I thought I'd throw my two cents in.

This is a great thread that provokes a lot of thought. I think that men are simply not writing, or if they are, not posting poems that would be mostly enjoyed by a generally male audience.

I'm thinking of movies, in the way some are considered "chick flicks" and others "guy movies" and then there are kind of movies right in between, where it doesn't obviously "skewer" toward a particular audience.

In other words, if Joe Blow wanted to write a poem, it might be a funny limerick or song parody, or a ode to monster trucks or NASCAR or something. That would be mostly enjoyed by guys, (or so he might believe) and just end up not writing it, or not posting it in a female dominated board.

But, just as men are stereotyped as shallow louses; they can feel the pain of romantic love gone wrong just as accutely as a woman, and produce sincere and genuine romantic poetry.

But are all "love" poems from a man inherently feminine? Are "angry" love poems the only kind of love poems that could possibly be masculine?

I personally think conciously and unconciously I have tended not to post poems that are too "raw" in fear of not offending the general female readership, and not becoming the object of derision from the male poets (because it was obvious to them and not to me what types of poems would be considered "off limits.")

On the other side, the number of romantic poems submitted may be higher because I feel they are more appropriate for a forum that has mostly women readers.

Again, I'm generalzing. This is all subjective, and, as Daughter said, it's entirely possible that a certain gendered poem might not click with the same gender not because that poem was accidentally written in the opposite gender, but because the poem itself just wasn't very good.

 

[The_Fool]

Shit, most of my male friends don't even fucking read, much less write....and as far as appreciating poetry.....forget it. That remote control is way easier to use than a book. I think I slipped off the topic slightly, but I think it's part of a broader topic of men not getting past the sports section when it comes to reading, much less writing.

 

[Mythos50]

Daughter wrote: “Poets,

What is your experience? I have populated online communities for a few years and on most, there are more women than men. When it come to poetry forums, how does this affect our writing, the tone community?

I'd really want to hear from the men. How does it feel to be the minority?”
No, sorry, in the universe of human beings, I am but one, as we all are, so I am in the majority.

Since I have been reading poems here and posting I have noticed more female poets posting on Lit’s bulletin boards for poetry, but not overly so. Then again, use of Nicks and Avs do not always denote gender or proper gender of posting individual, so how accurate is your statement on this basis?

Do you feel the unevenness of the demographics sometimes unduly affect the way you write?
I write poetry with basic human beings with a basic universal nature in mind as audience.

Hmm, maybe that is where I am going wrong!

All I am attempting to do is bring my perspective into the light, in as basic a manner as possible, closest to heart of man’s nature as possible so that all who read the poem may have a chance to relate and share the moment of my discovery. I suppose if I had a need different than that my writing would be different. At times it is, but always I aim for the basic emotional reactions, the basic universal nature of all human beings.

So, No, I do not care for demographics – they change next election anyways, or from pollster to pollster.

"Do we writers unconsciously" (Is my poetry that awful?) "write to the audience, and if we do and the audience is female, how do we tend to write?"

If my intent was to write poem to a female only audience I would change the tone of writing. Why? Because women have different “triggers” in their lovely feminine psyches that men do not; thus to influence them I would have to approach the poem differently.

"What differences, if any, would there be in our writing and in the group dynamics if there were greater balance or more men than women?"

Is the question who do I write to please? If so, myself first; my intended audience second. Sometimes I succeed at one, rarely at both; most times neither. Senna Jawa has no problem pointing this out to me!

I realize that the community dynamics will shift if more males vs. females. As the ‘shift’ stands now I am likely to get feedback from more females than males. So be it.

I do not think there would be a change in “our” writing unless we apply this to a “combo” of authors writing a poem. But even then pecking order takes over. Whose choice of words do we use? Whose proposed verse or stanza? In that choosing is established a …. Thank you!

So I would say that feedback perhaps changes but as an individual my voice is not going to change because of perceived demographics of the moment, unless I am looking to win a prize, unless I am looking for other than writing dam good poetry. And that brings us back again to “What is poetry? And how do we determine good from bad, in what time frame or age or moment?”

Wayne Dyer points out that most of society’s then-bad boys are today’s heroes. Can you think of any?

I have probably done nothing but muddy the waters for you, Daughter. If so, I apologize.

And now for something completely different….

 

[JUDO]

Originally posted by daughter
Are you saying women are uptight and overly concerned with etiquette?

Yep, that's me.

It is only online, too, that I see women writing more romantic poetry.

Shoot, I can't believe how sterotypical I am.


- Judo