To Those Who Adore Words

[CharleyH]

Is there in existence an etymology dictionary that gives the evolution of words, similar in manner to say … an encyclopaedia? (PS. I am looking for something in depth and not from Etymology Online).

I am in fact looking to discover the evolution of the word fetish and a more comprehensive definition and history than I am finding. The Latin 'facticius' is the earliest I can find. I realize Latin was first detected around 753 BC, but I had hoped to go a bit further back to find out where the Latin 'facticius' originated.

Note that I realize this may be an impossible ask, so in light of this … I heard that the earliest known dictionary was housed in England somewhere. Is this true? If so, where?

Thanks all.

 

[CeriseNoire]

Oxford English Dictionary would be my suggestion. The hardcopy version is a couple thousand dollars (20 volumes or so). But I think their online subscription isn't to expensive. When I was an undergrad, I had a free subscription through the English Department, and it really offered the most in-depth etymological look at words that i ever found.

 

[CharleyH]

Oxford English Dictionary would be my suggestion. The hardcopy version is a couple thousand dollars (20 volumes or so). But I think their online subscription isn't to expensive. When I was an undergrad, I had a free subscription through the English Department, and it really offered the most in-depth etymological look at words that i ever found.

Thank you CeriseNoire and welcome to Lit.

I had thought Webster's had the oldest dictionary, but that of course does not account for content that Oxford might supply, especially considering my query. Thanks for your link, though. I will await other responses to your post before investigating it further.

 

[oggbashan]

Oxford English Dictionary would be my suggestion. The hardcopy version is a couple thousand dollars (20 volumes or so). But I think their online subscription isn't to expensive. When I was an undergrad, I had a free subscription through the English Department, and it really offered the most in-depth etymological look at words that i ever found.

Some libraries have it on their shelves or on their computers. Most universities have it.

I have a photographically-reduced one volume copy. I need my reading glasses and a magnifying glass to consult it.

Perdita has/had on-line access to it.

Og

 

[CharleyH]

Some libraries have it on their shelves or on their computers. Most universities have it.

I have a photographically-reduced one volume copy. I need my reading glasses and a magnifying glass to consult it.

Perdita has/had on-line access to it.

Og

By the way? How does one gain access to an Online Library? (my local library in Canada merely gave access to all the book titles I could order in the Greater Toronto Area). Recently, I have been coming across a lot of articles that I cannot read because I am not a paid member. In this event, and if I must pay, what would the "best" online library resource be?

 

[Jenny_Jackson]

Ummmm... Subscribing to the OED online is 195.00 pounds per year. That's not cheap

Amazon has the OED 20 volumn set for about $700.00

 

[Stella_Omega]

Thank you CeriseNoire and welcome to Lit.

I had thought Webster's had the oldest dictionary, but that of course does not account for content that Oxford might supply, especially considering my query. Thanks for your link, though. I will await other responses to your post before investigating it further.

Etymology online says;

1613, fatisso, from Port. fetiço "charm, sorcery," originally feitiço "made artfully, artificial," from L. facticius "made by art," from facere "to make" (see factitious). L. facticius in Sp. has become hechizo "magic, witchcraft, sorcery." Probably introduced by Port. sailors and traders as a name for charms and talismans worshipped by the inhabitants of the Guinea coast of Africa. Popularized in anthropology by C. de Brosses' Le Culte des Dieux Fétiches (1760), which influenced the word's spelling in Eng. (Fr. fétiche, also from the Port. word). Figurative sense of "something irrationally revered" is Amer.Eng. 1837. Fetishism in the purely psycho-sexual sense first recorded 1897 in writings of Henry Havelock Ellis (1859-1939).

"In certain perversions of the sexual instinct, the person, part of the body, or particular object belonging to the person by whom the impulse is excited, is called the fetish of the patient." [E. Morselli in "Baldwin Dictionary of Philosophy," 1901]

I don't think it's the most comprehensive, it tends to have short entries. But evidently, the word doesn't derive from any ur-Sanskrit word- at least as far as the current meaning. It is of somewhat recent coinage, because the sailors thought they were seeing something new. The very same types of objects in Europe would be called Charms or talismans or suchlike.

 

[CharleyH]

Ummmm... Subscribing to the OED online is 195.00 pounds per year. That's not cheap

Amazon has the OED 20 volumn set for about $700.00

Depends what OED offers online ... have you seen it and can you give me a review?

 

[Jenny_Jackson]

Depends what OED offers online ... have you seen it and can you give me a review?

The latest hard cover version of the OED is 2006, published last summer. The online is the same version with continuing updates. As I remember, the OED is only republished ever 5 years or something.

Their website: http://www.oed.com/

 

[CharleyH]

The latest hard cover version of the OED is 2006, published last summer. The online is the same version with continuing updates. As I remember, the OED is only republished ever 5 years or something.

Their website: http://www.oed.com/

I will wait for reviews. Thanks, though, JJ.

 

[mismused]

delete

 

[CharleyH]

Etymology online says;


I don't think it's the most comprehensive, it tends to have short entries. But evidently, the word doesn't derive from any ur-Sanskrit word- at least as far as the current meaning. It is of somewhat recent coinage, because the sailors thought they were seeing something new. The very same types of objects in Europe would be called Charms or talismans or suchlike.

thanks Stell.

(Sanskrit?)

 

[Jenny_Jackson]

Partial answer to your question -- maybe -- from The Oxford American College Dictionary: [has "World History" note] Early 17th century (originally denoting an object used by the peoples of West Africa as an amulet or charm): from French fetiche, from Portuguese feitico 'charm, sorcery' (originally an adjective meaning 'made by art'), from Latin facititius 'made by art,' from facere 'make do.'

I called my younger sister, the lawyer. She has an OED. It makes the same references with one addition - Vodu which is an old term associated with Voodoo and relates to the trappings (dolls, icons, charms etc) used in voodoo.

 

[CharleyH]

Partial answer to your question -- maybe -- from The Oxford American College Dictionary: [has "World History" note] Early 17th century (originally denoting an object used by the peoples of West Africa as an amulet or charm): from French fetiche, from Portuguese feitico 'charm, sorcery' (originally an adjective meaning 'made by art'), from Latin facititius 'made by art,' from facere 'make do.'

Thanks my love, I appreciate it.

Anything earlier than maybe 500 BC?

 

[CharleyH]

I called my younger sister, the lawyer. She has an OED. It makes the same references with one addition - Vodu which is an old term associated with Voodoo and relates to the trappings (dolls, icons, charms etc) used in voodoo.

From the Latin, facticius? Interested in earlier references.

 

[Stella_Omega]

thanks Stell.

(Sanskrit?)

well, I haven't had all of my coffee yet..
(You know, it's that Indo-European root language that everything comes from except Basque and Finnish...)

 

[Stella_Omega]

From the Latin, facticius? Interested in earlier references.

Evidently not, the usage doesn't go that far back. Try "Charm" and related words, see if that gets you anywhere

 

[CharleyH]

well, I haven't had all of my coffee yet..
(You know, it's that Indo-European root language that everything comes from except Basque and Finnish...)

I know, I also thought there was an earlier language more from the middle east. It may be my mistake in thinking all written languages originated there and I am fully aware that new words are always springing up. I had simply hoped for a word for 'facticius' before the Latin or as a root for the Latin word

A Sumerian word maybe? Latin may be the beginning of our language as mixed from Celt, Etruscan, and maybe even Greek but it came from somewhere else originally, quite probably from the Middle East, and somewhere before that and so on. As I have said, I ask a quite impossible question.

 

[CharleyH]

Evidently not, the usage doesn't go that far back. Try "Charm" and related words, see if that gets you anywhere

Yes read it, and know, yet all thinks go back

 

[Jenny_Jackson]

The problem with the OED is it only traces back about 1500 years, generally. Maybe we should be looking in the phonetics branch of Anthropology.

 

[CharleyH]

The problem with the OED is it only traces back about 1500 years, generally. Maybe we should be looking in the phonetics branch of Anthropology.

I understand and words always come down to anthropology - but what if the anthropologists were wrong? After all, a certain amount of the study is guess work, no?

Edit for example: the Venus of Willendorf - a tool of worship or a masturbation aid?

 

[Vermilion]

Oxford University have, as far as I know, the best English language department in the world and they love a challenge. Try e-mailing and asking them, you never know - they may tell you the answer if they know it.

x
V

ps- I have a friend who works there so let me know if you have any problems and I'll ask her for a hand, ok?

 

[Jenny_Jackson]

I understand and words always come down to anthropology - but what if the anthropoligists were wrong? After all, a certain amount of the study is guess work, no?

True. The farther back in history you look, the more guesswork is required.

But my point is, the OED uses definitions and references based on textual examination, how words were used in knows books. I think to find the root of "Fetish" you have to go back farther than printed historical documents.

 

[CharleyH]

True. The farther back in history you look, the more guesswork is required.

But my point is, the OED uses definitions and references based on textual examination, how words were used in knows books. I think to find the root of "Fetish" you have to go back farther than printed historical documents.

I edited to add an example.

 

[CharleyH]

Oxford University have, as far as I know, the best English language department in the world and they love a challenge. Try e-mailing and asking them, you never know - they may tell you the answer if they know it.

x
V

ps- I have a friend who works there so let me know if you have any problems and I'll ask her for a hand, ok?

Thank you, V.