Time to Tame the Trolls

[impressive]

I'm bringing this from vella's mood thread into its own. Basically, I'm having a whinge about trolls (again). First, I'll copy the pertinent parts of old posts:

I'm alive -- but have been away much more than usual. Having a bit of a difference of opinion with the management which has soured me on hanging out here. I'm giving it another 24 hours before I start pulling my stories and poems and taking them elsewhere. *sigh* I'm sure I'll still pop in here to play with the crazies, though.

Thanks, all, for your concern. It might seem petty to you, but I feel very strongly about it. One of those principle things, y'know? This is what I sent to Lit:

Dear Lit,

I pledge to be a good Litizen -- to submit my work without compensation so that Lit can post it and attract readers (since all those hits boost Lit's advertising revenue).

I pledge to give as much honest, constructive feedback as time permits so that authors can improve their craft (thereby attracting more of those readers who attract more of that ad revenue).

I pledge to have a presence on a couple of forums in order to respond to reader questions and improve my own writing (again to enhance the overall quality of the material posted and attract more readers who, in turn, boost that ad revenue).

I pledge to give Lit's toy store my business (assuming I find what I seek at a comparable price).

In return, I just expect my work to be respected.

To that end, I expect blatant troll attacks to be promptly swept away so that the opinion of those providing reasoned feedback is appropriately reflected in my scores and position on the story indices.

That's all. Simple, really. If that's too much to expect, then I'll no longer participate (either as a writer or a reader or a shopper), pull my stuff down, and go elsewhere.

Thank you.​

Imp's

It's not going to help to say forget them but it's what you have to do. I know, it's damn frustrating. I have someone who picks off my stories the moment they are posted to ensure they stay under the 4.5. By the time management can react, the first couple of days are past and new stories demand the attention. The story never recovers and unless you spend your whole day monitoring they win. The worth is in how we regard you and I, and I'm sure many others, hold you in high regard.

Anything you'd like me to do to help in this battle I'll give a shot. Maybe a "Management Must do Something About Trolling - Sign Up Here" might get some attention. Otherwise we're being asked to pussyfoot around afraid to speak openly for fear of adverse response.

Stick in and help balance the table.

Imp...and thats why I don't get all het up about my scores..it'd drive me crazy if I did. I hope something comes of your request we'd miss your works

Thanks, neon. I'll think about the thread idea ... using my "pledge" to Lit as a starter.

My gripe is no longer with the low-life troll, but with Lit's management that has failed to act. We're GIVING our work -- free of charge -- so that someone else can make money. To me, that warrants some show of appreciation and respect. It ain't askin' much, and it costs nothing.

I'm "this close" to saying FUCK IT ALL and walking away. In RL, I'm a "professional volunteer." I would never continue to give my limited time/energy to an organization that allowed its volunteers to be treated this way. So, even though I'd scarcely be missed, I will take a stand on the issue.

Dearest Imp,
Please do not say FUCK IT ALL, because even though you hate what has/is happened/ing you will take away the wonderful writing we have come to enjoy, letting the troll worm it's way under your skin to the point that you would want to leave means the troll has won and we are the losers by not being able to experience the joy of your writing as well as your presence here.
Consider first the amount of stories that post and must be gone through, as well as the poems, new members enrollment, etc. Somethings take time is all and it may take a while to get to the plethora of troll droppings that pepper the fine pages of Lit.
So marinate in this for a while, don't cut off our nose to spite a troll's face. (It makes more sense if you're blonde). We need to come up with a solution for preventing others from trashing our works. Let's put up suggestions and then have a moderator or some other 'smart' person present our petition to Laurel and Manu. What do you say???
Just my plea to keep you here as well as so many other great authors.
The sometimes wise ABs.

Thanks, ABS ... but again, IT'S NOT ABOUT THE TROLLS anymore. It's about how we're being treated by allowing the behavior to continue without taking steps to prevent or promptly correct it. It needs to be a priority.

Without authors, THERE WOULD BE NO LIT. That fact, in and of itself, should garner us adequate protection against attacks.

I'm not insinuating that Lit is getting rich off us ... or even that it's breaking even. I don't know and really don't care. However, I do know that WE, by GIVING our material, are instrumental in Lit's very existence.

If it's a matter of cost, I would MUCH rather have an effective system of dealing with trolls than token financial prizes for troll-infested contests. The recognition itself is more than enough of a "prize" for me (not that I've ever won anything).

I'm certain there are automated ways of banning an IP address or suspending a troll's account or disabling anonymous voting once a voting pattern is established. If a troll is also an author, then remove one of their stories/poems from the site -- starting with the highest rated -- for each "violation."

I guess it really boils down to how much abuse we're willing to take for the "privilege" of seeing our material -- our freely shared material, at that -- posted. I'm not willing to take any more. The benefits are simply not outweighing the ongoing abuse.

Imp...it would be nigh on impossible to totally stop a troll if he/she/it has half an ounce of computerly knowledge. Using a proxy address means they could change their IP over and over and over again....

I really honestly sympathise with Laurel, I know the trolls are annoying but I don't know if she really has any way of stopping them.

If the scores upset ya so much...turn off voting? Just an idea...I know it's not as easy as that,scores are addictive *L*

Now, before anyone else tells me what I should feel, don't waste your breath. I've said repeatedly above where I stand on this issue. We can work together and bring about change ... or you all can live with the status quo. I'm not hanging around for the status quo. The common perception is that we should be thankful for a free place to showcase our work. That gratitude only goes so far with me (ref my "pledge" to Lit).

Per ABS' suggestion, I recommend we use this thread to brainstorm troll prevention tactics.

Here's one to toss around: NO ANONYMOUS VOTING. I don't mean that PCs or e-mail feedback cannot be anonymous. I mean that no vote cast anonymously (i.e., when not logged in) is counted toward the score. Period. This would, IMO, enable Lit to easily identify registered users who've a troll voting pattern and take appropriate action.

Discuss ...

 

[ABSTRUSE]

I think that would be the way to go, it would keep people a little more honest and serve as a deterent to one-bombing.

That was going to be my suggestion also.

 

[cloudy]

I agree completely, Imp. I think that anonymous voting leads to a high percentage of the troll behavior, and it only gets worse during contests, or when a story reaches the top of the lists.

Maybe another solution would be if a story was given a vote or 2 or less, it is required that a reason be listed. Maybe not very practical to actually put into practice, but if they were required to say why such a low vote was given, it might cut down on some of the malicious votes.

But, I'll add my plea to the others for you not to leave.

 

[Guest]

Imp, I know where you stand and I do empathise with you, to a degree. I am not about to tell you how you should feel, but I do have a question for you...

Why do you write?

 

[neonlyte]

I'd support this.

I can be simple, similar to the 'open poll' format (a proven working system).

 

[English Lady]

Hey Imp

Cloudy has a good idea with the low votes having to have an explaination with them. I used to post on a brit opinion site and they had this in place, just spoken to hubby (pooter geek and forum runner extraordinaire) and he reckons it's quite doable.

Anyhow, explaining a low vote would make some people think twice about giving them...BUT wouldn'tit be fair to have to explain a high vote too? (as I am sure this can be a problem in some cases too)

Completely stopping annonymous voting may effect the reader levels though. I wonder how many folks read at lit compared ot how many are registered and use the boards? I agree taking it away would help to deter trolls BUT it mightupset some legit readers who just don't want to register (for whatever reason)

 

[Alex De Kok]

NO ANONYMOUS VOTING.

Gets my vote. With 448, 890 members, who needs passers-by?

Alex

 

[tolyk]

I don't see how it would really help all that much, since there are indeed ways around it all. And hell, just because someone gives me a one doesn't make them a troll, they could've just really not liked my story/poem and their vote expresses that. What is there to say in a PC that is helpful if you aren't a good critic? "I think your poem sucked." isn't helpful at all, but doesn't mean that person isn't entitled to their opinion.

I mean, take the contests for example. If you were in first place in a contest and the person in second decided to have all their Lit friends go and 1 bomb you, what can Laurel do about it? If those people have never even given a 1 before and are all on different IPs, it doesn't fall under trolling.

One thing that could be done is that feedback would be required to justify a vote, but then, people can say anything they want too in feedback really. Also, then votes wouldn't be as common and the established numbers for contests would have to be changed.. etc etc etc.

There are pros and cons to any method that could be thought up to 'tame the trolls', definitely since, as I said, not every 1 a person gets is trolling.

(Just trying to look at it all from a practical standpoint.. and I probably rambled a bit much, not feeling all that eloquent today)

 

[R. Richard]

I have suggested something like this in the past.

What I would like to see is a database of votes, visible only to the author. An author could find out who voted for his/her story and what the vote was. Each author would then become a "troll detector."

I am not saying that someone might not have a legitimate reason for voting an author's story as a 1 vote. I am saying that the author should be able to at least inquire why the 1 vote.

From past experience and personal coments I have found that you get things like "How dare you write a story about a brother and sister having sex!" [The category was Incest.] "How dare you write a story about a girl forced to have sex!" [The category was NonConsent/Reluctance.] The person/people who write such comments are probably too stupid to reason with. Another type of comment is "How dare you write a Loving Wives story without a gangbang." [Can you say obsession?] I strongly suspect that each such comment is accompanied by a 1 bomb.

Not only could we authors get rid of the 1 bombs, we just might be able to get the trolls to get much needed psychiatric help.

JMHO.

 

[English Lady]

tolyk..you have a good point and I quite agree with you.

I'm not really disatisfied with things as they are, but i'm pretty easily pleased *L*

 

[neonlyte]

Imp, I know where you stand and I do empathise with you, to a degree. I am not about to tell you how you should feel, but I do have a question for you...

Why do you write?

Lou,
With the greatest of respect I'm not sure this is an issue of writing. Most trolling stems from two sources (I imagine):

top list / high score jealousy
or
expressing an opinion with which someone else disagrees.

Jealousy - the old green eyed monster - is hard to combat.

What I personally object to is the creeping threat that if you speak out of turn, cannot speak an honest and open self felt opinion without the risk of someone seeking petty revenge on your work, the work which you spend hours, weeks and days tuning to the best of your ability, then the perception of 'freedom of speech' portrayed by Lit is no more than an illusion.

We all want our work to be highly regarded, we all want to be in the top list, most of us are realists, we strive and are rewarded by comments and votes, surprised when a story does better than expected, disappointed when we don't pull it off. We know the truth of our value.

But to be chastised in a vile and demeaning manner for expressing an opinion is not what any of us entered writing to achieve.

Sorry for the rant, fortunately it will make little difference to my scores. I'm seriously considering 'no-voting' for my next stories - I know my 'rank' it's the comments that carry the weight.

 

[ABSTRUSE]

Not only could we authors get rid of the 1 bombs, we just might be able to get the trolls to get much needed psychiatric help.

I think there is some truth in that, Some people may be vindictive and troll while others are just nutcases that couldn't get off and feel the need to make some asinine suggestion instead of writing their own story.

I think, IMO, that Literotica as far as a writing site is probably one of the few sites where people aren't just concerned with the erotica but with the way it is written as well. We tend to not want to write just erotica we want to write the best that we can and strive to grow in our craft with every new story we post.
That is why we are so sensitive to trolling in general.

 

[Guest]

Anyhow, explaining a low vote would make some people think twice about giving them...BUT wouldn'tit be fair to have to explain a high vote too? (as I am sure this can be a problem in some cases too)

Ok, I'm gonna play devil's advocate here.

EL makes a very valid point there. We don't get up in arms and complain when we get 5-bombed, do we?

Why do people 1-bomb?
Because they don't like the story? - Rarely the case, I expect.
Because they don't like the person that wrote the story? - Maybe, if they didn't like what that person said on the forums, for example.
Because they want to knock it down the top lists? - Highly likely, in a lot of cases.
Because they are sorry individuals, who don't like to see others being popular and doing well? - Again, highly likely.

Why do people "5-bomb"?
Because they loved the story? - Yes, I imagine that this is genuinely often the case.
Because they like the person that wrote the story? - Again, yes, that's highly likely often the over-riding reason.
Because they want to help bump it up the top lists? - Again, definitely a possible reason/ploy.
Because that person is well liked and popular? - Yes, this is possible, too.

Do you see my point? I believe we should take the rough with the smooth. I am certain that a lot of the 5's I get are because of who I am. I'd like to believe it's because I write such damn good stories, which are almost perfect, every single time. But, I know that ain't true.

Yes, my stories get 1-bombed, but none of them have an average below 4.30, which means that the vast majority of votes on all of my stories are 5's. Are they all legitimate, based purely on the merits of the stories? I doubt it very much. So, in conclusion, my stories also get 5-bombed.

There are nasty and malicious people in this world, but there are far more sweet and wonderful people.

I do understand you, Imp, and I can see why this annoys you, but I just don't (and can't) let it get to me in the same way. I look at the whole picture.

Lou

 

[Guest]

Lou,
With the greatest of respect I'm not sure this is an issue of writing. Most trolling stems from two sources (I imagine):

top list / high score jealousy
or
expressing an opinion with which someone else disagrees.

Jealousy - the old green eyed monster - is hard to combat.

What I personally object to is the creeping threat that if you speak out of turn, cannot speak an honest and open self felt opinion without the risk of someone seeking petty revenge on your work, the work which you spend hours, weeks and days tuning to the best of your ability, then the perception of 'freedom of speech' portrayed by Lit is no more than an illusion.

We all want our work to be highly regarded, we all want to be in the top list, most of us are realists, we strive and are rewarded by comments and votes, surprised when a story does better than expected, disappointed when we don't pull it off. We know the truth of our value.

But to be chastised in a vile and demeaning manner for expressing an opinion is not what any of us entered writing to achieve.

Sorry for the rant, fortunately it will make little difference to my scores. I'm seriously considering 'no-voting' for my next stories - I know my 'rank' it's the comments that carry the weight.

Neon, I asked the question merely to ascertain Imp's motivations for writing.

I notice she's started up another thread on this topic, so I'll take my further comments there.

 

[tolyk]

What I personally object to is the creeping threat that if you speak out of turn, cannot speak an honest and open self felt opinion without the risk of someone seeking petty revenge on your work, the work which you spend hours, weeks and days tuning to the best of your ability, then the perception of 'freedom of speech' portrayed by Lit is no more than an illusion.

But to be chastised in a vile and demeaning manner for expressing an opinion is not what any of us entered writing to achieve.

Neon, you speak about freedom of speech for yourself to express your opinions. But freedom of speech is about everyone being able to express their opinions and viewpoints. Even the trolls.

We not like what they have to say, but obviously they don't like what we have to say either. Therein lies the major problem with freedom of speech, everyone feels that they are the ones with the right to their opinions. Instead people should respect all opinions, even if they don't agree with them, we'd all get along better then, even with the hateful trolls me thinks. Though, why they enjoy living under bridges is beyond me.

 

[English Lady]

Ok, I'm gonna play devil's advocate here.

EL makes a very valid point there. We don't get up in arms and complain when we get 5-bombed, do we?

Why do people 1-bomb?
Because they don't like the story? - Rarely the case, I expect.
Because they don't like the person that wrote the story? - Maybe, if they didn't like what that person said on the forums, for example.
Because they want to knock it down the top lists? - Highly likely, in a lot of cases.
Because they are sorry individuals, who don't like to see others being popular and doing well? - Again, highly likely.

Why do people "5-bomb"?
Because they loved the story? - Yes, I imagine that this is genuinely often the case.
Because they like the person that wrote the story? - Again, yes, that's highly likely often the over-riding reason.
Because they want to help bump it up the top lists? - Again, definitely a possible reason/ploy.
Because that person is well liked and popular? - Yes, this is possible, too.

Do you see my point? I believe we should take the rough with the smooth. I am certain that a lot of the 5's I get are because of who I am. I'd like to believe it's because I write such damn good stories, which are almost perfect, every single time. But, I know that ain't true.

Yes, my stories get 1-bombed, but none of them have an average below 4.30, which means that the vast majority of votes on all of my stories are 5's. Are they all legitimate, based purely on the merits of the stories? I doubt it very much. So, in conclusion, my stories also get 5-bombed.

There are nasty and malicious people in this world, but there are far more sweet and wonderful people.

I do understand you, Imp, and I can see why this annoys you, but I just don't (and can't) let it get to me in the same way. I look at the whole picture.

Lou

Yup...I totally agree love. Icouldn'thave said it half as eloquently myself

 

[impressive]

Completely stopping annonymous voting may effect the reader levels though. I wonder how many folks read at lit compared ot how many are registered and use the boards? I agree taking it away would help to deter trolls BUT it mightupset some legit readers who just don't want to register (for whatever reason)

I don't see how. They could still vote or click the thermometer & leave a PC. The PC would still show, but the vote wouldn't "count" unless they signed in.

It would be totally transparent to the reader.

 

[tolyk]

Ok, I'm gonna play devil's advocate here.

EL makes a very valid point there. We don't get up in arms and complain when we get 5-bombed, do we?

Why do people 1-bomb?
Because they don't like the story? - Rarely the case, I expect.
Because they don't like the person that wrote the story? - Maybe, if they didn't like what that person said on the forums, for example.
Because they want to knock it down the top lists? - Highly likely, in a lot of cases.
Because they are sorry individuals, who don't like to see others being popular and doing well? - Again, highly likely.

Why do people "5-bomb"?
Because they loved the story? - Yes, I imagine that this is genuinely often the case.
Because they like the person that wrote the story? - Again, yes, that's highly likely often the over-riding reason.
Because they want to help bump it up the top lists? - Again, definitely a possible reason/ploy.
Because that person is well liked and popular? - Yes, this is possible, too.

Do you see my point? I believe we should take the rough with the smooth. I am certain that a lot of the 5's I get are because of who I am. I'd like to believe it's because I write such damn good stories, which are almost perfect, every single time. But, I know that ain't true.

Yes, my stories get 1-bombed, but none of them have an average below 4.30, which means that the vast majority of votes on all of my stories are 5's. Are they all legitimate, based purely on the merits of the stories? I doubt it very much. So, in conclusion, my stories also get 5-bombed.

There are nasty and malicious people in this world, but there are far more sweet and wonderful people.

I do understand you, Imp, and I can see why this annoys you, but I just don't (and can't) let it get to me in the same way. I look at the whole picture.

Lou

Very well said Lou. Hear hear!

 

[neonlyte]

I'll carry on this discussion on the other thread. Leave this one clear for people to post yay or nay.

 

[impressive]

And hell, just because someone gives me a one doesn't make them a troll, ...

True, but if someone systematically goes through a wide swath of your stories and poems and votes a consistently low vote that is FAR below the majority of earlier votes, then they ARE a troll.

 

[ABSTRUSE]

Maybe we need to recall the Uni-tit challenge?

I have heard of examples of people being trolled out of vindication which I don't believe in, I may get pissed off at someone, but I would never take it out on their writing, I'm not that low.

 

[tolyk]

True, but if someone systematically goes through a wide swath of your stories and poems and votes a consistently low vote that is FAR below the majority of earlier votes, then they ARE a troll.

I'll agree there, but it is my understanding that Laurel takes care of those ones as timely as she can.

I mean, there are thousands of stories here, I can't imagine it is easy to maintain.

 

[English Lady]

I'll agree there, but it is my understanding that Laurel takes care of those ones as timely as she can.

I mean, there are thousands of stories here, I can't imagine it is easy to maintain.

*just nods*

 

[Colleen Thomas]

IMHO, if you really sweat your vote average, nothing is going to help. Do I think i deserve a one vote on anything I have posted? absolutely not, I work hard on my stories and wouldn't psot them if I felt they were worthy of a one. I still get them. Some are assuredly from a troll, some may possibly be legitimate, from people who don't like my style, or the story line or whatever.

If you make voting non-annonyamous you will discourage some trolls, but you will also disuade a lot of people who vote the way they feel. Like anon feedback, some people harbor nothingmore dastardly in their hearts than to not do anything that links them to a porn site. Even site authors might feel pressured to vote a story higher than they feel it deserves, rather than run the risk of hurting someone else's feelings or provoking a fight.

No matter where you go or how you go about it, every system will be abused. There is no fool proof system.

I take votes as they come, trusting to the quality of my writing to eventually bring up the occasional bomb, be it legit or a troll. I've had all ten of the top spots in the les top list before. I've had times with none of my works even having an H. If you sweat it, you will go nuts.

I'm not trying to disuade you from seeing a better system, only pointing out no matter what you do, abusers will find a way to continue. Were it me, I woul dpush for the site owners to do occasional audits of the accounts and check the voting records. If someone is consitantly giving ones, or consistantly giving ones to a particular author, I would move to block the account and remove all votes. They will just make a new one, but it will discourage them for a while, until they start giving other votes to keep from being deleted & blocked.

I think that would be more fair as well. If someone has given an author 2 ones, there is no reason to keep reading his/her stories. If they continue to bomb works, then it can be assumed those votes are malicious. Likewise, if they only give ones, then the question arises of why they are here.

My 2 cents worth.

 

[neonlyte]

Look's like the discussion is here.

I'm an optomistic old idealist.

I'd like to think everyone behaved like me. If I have a difference of opinion with someone on the Forum, I wouldn't go and trash their stories, AND I don't want anyone doing it to me because that cuts at the very purpose for being here, which is to write.

Repetitive votes are automatically cleared by the system doesn't matter whether they are a 1 or a 5 - they go.

Troll votes are maliciously voting down a story because you either want it to be lower in the list OR out of vindictiveness. I could go and scatter a dozen 1 votes across the board right now and no one will have a fucking clue the why or what has happened. But if I go out and vote 1's or 2's across several of the same persons stories then I'm deliberately victimising that person.

Having an 'open poll' system of seeing whose voted on your stories will allow you to contact Lauren and tel her Dickhead voted x, x and x on y, y and y can you please remove them. At the very least you (the writer) can come to terms with what has happened and menatlly adjust to the actions of the troll. At the moment you cannot make the adjustment because you cannot be certain what has happened or why.

I want freedom of speech for everyone - I've even been known to be wrong, but I don't want any individuals right to express an opinion carried over to the place where we do our writing - and if it must be, then I want it transparent, so I can see who it was and say Fuckwit.