Time for west to concede Crimea is part of Russia?

[renard_ruse]

In the interest of democracy and unity, it would seem that the so-called "west" and especially the US has a moral obligation to recognize the factual reality that Crimea is now part of Russia, being fully integrated into the Russian Federation economically, politically, and even physically by the Kerch Straight bridge. The "west" also has a moral obligation to recognize the results of the 2014 Crimean referendum on reunification with Russia that passed by an overwhelming majority of the vote. Even claims of vote tampering in Sevastopol or Simferopol wouldn't be enough to overcome the support in other parts of the peninsula.

Reunification was approved in an election and is a de facto reality. Let's end these divisive sanctions, recognize Crimean reunification with Russia as fact, and move on. Anything else is an attack on democracy and the sanctity of elections and is childish.

 

[LupusDei]

US didn't concede that my country is part of USSR for fifty years until the occupation was thrown off.

And while I wouldn't say the situation is very similar (it's not) but... the realpolitik on the ground is, as long as the situation in Ukraine isn't resolved they would likely keep out of my home. Russia is an aggressive empire with expansionist agenda and as much it can be held back it should.

 

[PaxNurgle]

In the interest of democracy and unity, it would seem that the so-called "west" and especially the US has a moral obligation to recognize the factual reality that Crimea is now part of Russia, being fully integrated into the Russian Federation economically, politically, and even physically by the Kerch Straight bridge. The "west" also has a moral obligation to recognize the results of the 2014 Crimean referendum on reunification with Russia that passed by an overwhelming majority of the vote. Even claims of vote tampering in Sevastopol or Simferopol wouldn't be enough to overcome the support in other parts of the peninsula.

Reunification was approved in an election and is a de facto reality. Let's end these divisive sanctions, recognize Crimean reunification with Russia as fact, and move on. Anything else is an attack on democracy and the sanctity of elections and is childish.

Well, you obviously know a lot more about Russian history than most of us, seeing as you are from there. We all wish you would spend more time posting about your OWN country's politics and quit trolling us about ours, but it is what it is.

When I was a kid, pretty much all of it was considered "Russia" and the difference between Ukraine vs. Beylorus vs (for example) Azerbaijan was like the difference between Alabama and Wisconsin. Now granted that was a fairly naieve and incorrect viewpoint, but that was nonetheless the general view of us Americans who were ignorant of the ethnic and political diversity of the Soviet Union at the time.

I to be some what isolationist in my world view as far as interfering in other country's border disputes, so I would tend to want to recognize Crimea's incorporation (or re-incorporation, if you will) into Russia as there seems to be little strategic geopolitical consequence to the U.S. whether it is part of Ukraine or part of Russia.

 

[LupusDei]

I to be some what isolationist in my world view as far as interfering in other country's border disputes, so I would tend to want to recognize Crimea's incorporation (or re-incorporation, if you will) into Russia as there seems to be little whether it is part of Ukraine or part of Russia.

Little strategic geopolitical consequence to the U.S. ? Really?

It's -- almost-- basically the root of the current conflict. Be Crimea remained Ukrainian, the U.S. warships likely had a free port in Sevastopol by now. With also means, they would have unrestricted access to the Black Sea, no longer subject to the special maritime rules of it (because of with U.S. have to constantly change patrol sorties of limited size within Black Sea, as no ship has a right to reside there continuously). Preventing such possibility was one of main strategic goals for the decision of occupation of Crimea by Russia.

When USSR collapsed, Ukraine inherited sizable arsenal of nuclear weapons that were dislocated in their territory, actually, at that point, world's third largest stockpile. They voluntarily gave it all up, disarming under a memorandum signed by Russia, USA, UK, and joined by France and China that guaranteed territorial integrity of Ukraine (in it's that moment's borders, it should be understood, with did include Crimea, last changing owners by Stalin gifting it to Ukraine in 1954).

Russia retained navy base in Sevastopol, shared by Ukrainian fleet -- both fleets initially being divided out of formerly unitary USSR fleet. The facilities likewise couldn't be immediately fully and logistically separated. This effectively restricted Russian fleet in Sevastopol to handle nuclear armaments too, since Ukraine was nuclear weapons free zone. Russians repeatedly requested a fully separate military base, but were denied, the issue used as a bargain chip. Then, in 2008 Ukraine applied for NATO Membership Plan and began preparing for integration. Now NATO and Russian warships shared dockside in Sevastopol in several occasions.

Then in November 2013 pro-Russian president Viktor Yanukovych suspended association agreement with European Union, sparking mass civil protests and revolution in result of with Viktor Yanukovych had to flee to Russia.

Russia sized the moment to execute what appears to be well prepared operation to overtake Crimea. They also initiated armed rebellion in Donetsk with is simmering to this day, despite it likely failed to achieve it's strategic goals to further divide Ukraine and give free land access to Crimea. It's a common joke that in the east of Ukraine you apparently can buy in village hardware store not only a rifle, but a main battle tank and even state-of-the-art anti-aircraft rocket system capable of taking out international passenger plane by mistake. Russia denied admission plea for the two separatist's "republics" but continues to illegally support them with arms and mercenaries, and in some key moments, possibly regular units in disguise and allegedly even direct artillery support from Russian territory.

Well, they had to finally build the bridge to Crimea, planned in various forms for over a century.

On the strategic significance of Crimea as a military base, just take a map, locate it and draw a 1000km circle around. Well, if I was an aggressive alien looking to subjugate Earth in military conquest at technology level comparable to currently used here, it's one of possible points I would choose for the initial landing.

In a way it's entirely understandable Russians were unable to even entertain possibility of losing it completely, and cohabitation with NATO forces was seen as equally unacceptable perspective. However, Ukrainians also have every right to feel betrayed, not only by Russia, but also by international partners who had promised guarantees. Slighting such treaties though is time and again proven to be just the usual reality of big power politics.

 

[ishtat]

Even ignoring the facts on the ground for a moment, there is a compelling case for the West to harass the Russians, simply because the Russians constantly interfere with Western governments and institutions at all levels. They are a threat to every single country with which they have a border and many with which they do not.

Personally, I would like to see China at least mildly encouraged to take on Russia in East Asia. Bogging both of them down in that theatre has considerable attraction.

 

[EmptyTank]

history says you took it you control it it is yours

as far as the west is concerned what is the west
europe?
the uk coalition
uk us canada australia new zealand?

it is europes problem and they won't do anything about it
they do not even want to fund nato so the hell with them

I say for uk coalition wash your hands of nato and let europe know that it is on its own

russia will soon have its own problems with china so expansion is not on their horizon and we have to worry about chinese aggression too
we might as well be still wringing our hands over georgia and trust me right now in my country our georgia matters a lot more than that other one or the crimea as we are in the middle of an internecine civil war of our own
there is no appetite to stand up to russia any more than biden will have to stand up to expansionist china

in short crimea is in russian hands and will remain so until russia collapses again

 

[EmptyTank]

Even ignoring the facts on the ground for a moment, there is a compelling case for the West to harass the Russians, simply because the Russians constantly interfere with Western governments and institutions at all levels. They are a threat to every single country with which they have a border and many with which they do not.

Personally, I would like to see China at least mildly encouraged to take on Russia in East Asia. Bogging both of them down in that theatre has considerable attraction.

to the first point so do n korea and china
as to the second seigfreid and roy teach us that there is no such thing as a tame tiger
china has no reason to hold anything but resentment against the so called west
china still stings from colonialism and it getting stronger
we taught them to trade or else and now they use slave labor to beat us over the head with trade
at least trump tried to do something about that
europe will not they are now doing more trade with china than with the us
with biden at our helm i doubt the uk coalition will do anything either
we are not in as much proximity as say australia and nz

 

[EmptyTank]

US didn't concede that my country is part of USSR for fifty years until the occupation was thrown off.

And while I wouldn't say the situation is very similar (it's not) but... the realpolitik on the ground is, as long as the situation in Ukraine isn't resolved they would likely keep out of my home. Russia is an aggressive empire with expansionist agenda and as much it can be held back it should.

one in one hundred of my countrymen could find your country on a map then and sadly now
we are a woefully uneducated lot

 

[LupusDei]

one in one hundred of my countrymen could find your country on a map then and sadly now
we are a woefully uneducated lot

That's true, but we only need a thousand or so of your boots on the ground training in our facilities (they're constantly rotating as there's a stupid agreement precluding them to settle in permanent base, but there's a hardware storage), as a "tripwire" force to squish any strange ideas. We have interesting environment and routinely hold excercises integrating up to 28 different military organizations, so I believe we have our unique angle to add to their training.

While it's also true that a imaginary regional coalition (Sweden, Norway, Finland, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Poland) already have economy larger than that of Russia and even military could be somewhat comparable -- except the air force, heavy equipment and, of course, nukes, there isn't such a coalition. Yes, that's entirely on us. But even if there was, the psychology of the region is that, frankly, only US is respected as possible deterrent against Russia.

All what's actually required is only expression of political will. While we are fully aware we will be betrayed on a heartbeat when the shit really hit the fan, as long as you don't say that aloud prematurely you may never have to.

 

[Champakian]

I have come to detest the idea of "Tripwire Troops."
In too many places where we are present, the people seem to hate us.
Ever seen the Kurosawa epic "Seven Samurai?" They remind me of the villagers...

 

[LLCox]

Never GIVE the russians anything.

 

[phrodeau]

Time for West to concede? That was a month ago.

https://ew.com/celebrity/kanye-west-concedes-election-defeat/

 

[LupusDei]

I have come to detest the idea of "Tripwire Troops."
In too many places where we are present, the people seem to hate us.
Ever seen the Kurosawa epic "Seven Samurai?" They remind me of the villagers...

It's a troublesome concept, yes. Yet we have to work with reality on the ground and, while I too gladly preferred different solution it's what it is now.

Well, you're a bully. The biggest meanest bully on the block, and quite often the stupidest, but that somewhat comes packed with the image, so kind of expected. But even the biggest and meanest bully is nothing without a gang. And it's not like there was no competition, there's still that old cunning thieve Russia and now China, a ruthless pimp, is rapidly gaining strength, not to count all the assorted smaller troublemakers. There's no good guys in the international politics. We choose to go with the bully because we believe we share core values. And yes, I know what an absurd somersault that concept is, mentioned like this.

It's also a big mistake to single out any individual episode. It's all connected. Ukraine, Syria, Libya, Caucasus, Baltic, it's a single battlefield do we like it or not.

Even, as much as my heart goes with Armenians, I can only congratulate Azeri with what appears to be decisive victory in a whole new generation of warfare. (The clouds of disinformation are thick around that conflict, but the gist is, integrated Turkish and Israeli drone swarms turned out to be very effective in offense against mostly Russian outfitted Armenian defenders even in high mountains theater. Turkey's drones already had previously defeated Russian mercenaries in Libyan desert, as well as be a game changer in Syria, but this was first "full scale" conflict between state level players where one side gained decisive edge through drone warfare.)

 

[MartinHeidegger]

https://media.tenor.com/images/1726c15cec2e7a51a097c065433eb582/tenor.gif