Thoughts On Submission...What Is It Really?

[catalina_francisco]

OK, I have decided to be daring and put something out there that always strikes me as odd, to see if perhaps I am the only one, or just not getting something vitally important in the school of submission. Two of the most common things I see mentioned often as being seen as self proclaimed signs someone is submissive are (1) serving the Dominant/PYL first when serving out a meal etc.; and (2) never making a huge decision without talking it over with the PYL. Now I don't see anything wrong with either of these things, but I have never seen them as being proof someone is submissive.

I didn't go to a fancy finishing school for young ladies, but I was raised to always serve everyone before myself, and have found others do the same. Sometimes if I am busy with something else and dinner needs to be served, F might step in and do it, and though he is far from submissive, he will serve everyone else first. To me not only is it just good manners, but it also just makes practical common sense to serve others before yourself, otherwise your plate is sitting there all lonely like while you are still serving. I cannot recall one situation... work, social, family... where this has not been the case of the host or person serving to make sure everyone else is served first....and I never once thought 'sheeesh, another submissive, yay!!', I just thought it was normal. So am I missing something here and it means nearly the whole world is submissive because they serve others first?

As to the decision thing, once again I thought that if you were in a relationship (D/s or vanilla) and a big decision had to be made or a huge purchase, it was normal for you to discuss it with your partner or PYL first. To me, it just once again makes sense and ensures less chance of a big argument and avoids feelings which do everything to make the other person feel they are not in a relationship after all. Isn't it normal to discuss these things anyway? I know growing up my parents always discussed them first, often around the dinner table with input from us if welcomed, and then a decision was made as to what was best. When did it become a sure sign someone was a good submissive? I have no problem with the PYL making the decision themselves, without discussion if they choose, but for a submissive to feel it is sign of their submission to do so puzzles me as it is for me normal in any relationship to discuss it and then make a decision from there....even in ours we usually discuss the idea, especially now it is my duty to keep track of finances, but he makes the decision. I am feeling so like I have missed out on some important development which I always thought was standard behaviour...am I the only one?

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/146/351820055_df11ba7f4e_t.jpg Catalina

 

[myinnerslut]

this is an intersting question and i dont have time to answer it fully since i am about to run off to work, so ill come back later with a more elequent answer, but my immediate answer would be that doing XYZ itself doesnt make one a submissive, but it may be a way one way for them to demonstrate thier submission to thier PYL. right up there with always being respectfull. respect doesng make you submissive, but can be one of many ways to demonstrate submission.

 

[catalina_francisco]

this is an intersting question and i dont have time to answer it fully since i am about to run off to work, so ill come back later with a more elequent answer, but my immediate answer would be that doing XYZ itself doesnt make one a submissive, but it may be a way one way for them to demonstrate thier submission to thier PYL. right up there with always being respectfull. respect doesng make you submissive, but can be one of many ways to demonstrate submission.

I take your point, but how does it demonstrate your submission to your PYL if it is something you do normally anyway, and for other people who may be there in the case of serving a meal? That is my struggle...if it is something I and millions of others do daily without thought because it is standard good social behaviour/manners, why is it a seen specifically as sign of good submission to the PLY?

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/19/98893070_60aee13eb9_t.jpg Catalina

 

[CutieMouse]

I'm too fuzzy headed at the moment to do anything but quietly nod along with Cat...

 

[the captians wench]

No Cat I'm with ya.

i was always taught to serve myself last and to tend to the needs of my company first. But I think that it's a practice that is a bit out of date here in the states. As are many of the "rules" in the "book of manors".

While my mother planted these first rules I took it upon myself to learn more indepth some of the things that many around me concider old fasioned and unnessisary. But then I've always been wrapped in a place that is both far in distance and in time.

And I tend to agree on the other point as well. it just always made since to me to talk to my other in matters of importance. Sometimes I just need to talk things out so that I can make a decition. It makes the most since to talk to the one who has my best interst in mind.

 

[BiBunny]

I'm in the middle of procrastinating over a paper I have due in about three hours, so I'm not thinking well enough to respond at the moment. I agree with what's been said, and I'll be back later.

 

[Daddyslilpet]

OK, I have decided to be daring and put something out there that always strikes me as odd, to see if perhaps I am the only one, or just not getting something vitally important in the school of submission. Two of the most common things I see mentioned often as being seen as self proclaimed signs someone is submissive are (1) serving the Dominant/PYL first when serving out a meal etc.; and (2) never making a huge decision without talking it over with the PYL. Now I don't see anything wrong with either of these things, but I have never seen them as being proof someone is submissive.

I didn't go to a fancy finishing school for young ladies, but I was raised to always serve everyone before myself, and have found others do the same. Sometimes if I am busy with something else and dinner needs to be served, F might step in and do it, and though he is far from submissive, he will serve everyone else first. To me not only is it just good manners, but it also just makes practical common sense to serve others before yourself, otherwise your plate is sitting there all lonely like while you are still serving. I cannot recall one situation... work, social, family... where this has not been the case of the host or person serving to make sure everyone else is served first....and I never once thought 'sheeesh, another submissive, yay!!', I just thought it was normal. So am I missing something here and it means nearly the whole world is submissive because they serve others first?

As to the decision thing, once again I thought that if you were in a relationship (D/s or vanilla) and a big decision had to be made or a huge purchase, it was normal for you to discuss it with your partner or PYL first. To me, it just once again makes sense and ensures less chance of a big argument and avoids feelings which do everything to make the other person feel they are not in a relationship after all. Isn't it normal to discuss these things anyway? I know growing up my parents always discussed them first, often around the dinner table with input from us if welcomed, and then a decision was made as to what was best. When did it become a sure sign someone was a good submissive? I have no problem with the PYL making the decision themselves, without discussion if they choose, but for a submissive to feel it is sign of their submission to do so puzzles me as it is for me normal in any relationship to discuss it and then make a decision from there....even in ours we usually discuss the idea, especially now it is my duty to keep track of finances, but he makes the decision. I am feeling so like I have missed out on some important development which I always thought was standard behaviour...am I the only one?

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/146/351820055_df11ba7f4e_t.jpg Catalina

Catalina you assume that everyone still does things the old fashioned way, and serves up the food, but this isn't always the case in every household. Growing up in my family the food was placed on the table and passed around and each person fixed their own plate. So serving up the food is indeed a different concept for me. Do I think it proves my submissiveness? No. It is just one way that I can serve Daddy in the everyday things that's all. Could He do it for Himself? Sure and He does on occasion when I'm busy with other things.

When it comes to the decision making thing, I think the biggest difference is that while we may discuss major decisions and I get to give my input the final decision is up to Him. In a vanilla relationship the decision is usually a joint decision, whereas in a D/s relationship the Dom should be the one making the decision and the sub should be the one accepting the decision made without question. That to me is what makes that different and yes that does take submission to pull off.

Those are my thoughts on your questions anyway.

edit to add: I always post in the context of the Male Dom/ fem sub but folks please feel free to put yourself and your label on my words. I hate using that pyl accronym...LOL.

 

[leeroy jenkins]

Ok now what if you don't serve others first like me?? So for me this might be a sign of submission because I was told to modify my personal behavior. I have a few rough edges because in my childhood and teen years the parental units sucked ass on instruction.

 

[RJMasters]

LJ and Dix got it right.

Many times the activities that go on in life are the same whether you are in a D/s, M/s or vanilla relationship.

Shopping still needs to be done. Dinner still needs to be served. House still needs to be clean. Laundry still needs to be done. Bills still need to be paid.

Whether you are not use to serving others first or whether you are is entirely besides the point. The point is that you are told this is how you will do it.

If you are not use to doing it and have to adjust, that's great in that you can over come this challenge in how you think and act while serving dinner.

If you are use to doing this, then it should make it easy then to comply as this is something you normally do anyway.

What makes it an act of submission is that you are told to do it that way and you obey.

The question as I see it is if you are not told to do it that way or given any instructions regarding it at all but you do it, do you still see it as a valid expression of submission?

My answer to that is it can be, but not necessarily is. Service oriented submissives do what they do "for" their Dominant. They do what they do in order to be pleasing. If that is their motivation and focus for doing what they do even in the simplest of things, then yes it is an expression of genuine submission...or perhaps it is an expression of submission that I would find acceptable and appreciated.

 

[catalina_francisco]

Catalina you assume that everyone still does things the old fashioned way, and serves up the food, but this isn't always the case in every household. Growing up in my family the food was placed on the table and passed around and each person fixed their own plate.

Not necessarily, in fact I never assume that 'everyone' ever does anything in a particular way...we often have meals where the food is placed on the table as a buffet style way of eating, and it is a very Spanish way of eating as well so makes sense, but like in many things, we do not always eat the same way as it isn't always practical....especially for us on daily basis as we also have one who cannot eat with us but needs to eat. I would think though that outside special occasions, serving out dinner is probably the usual way for many people, though I could be mistaken. It isn't meant to be a question encouraging challenge, just an observation which makes me curious...I am a curious soul about everything in life.

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/41/98893069_5769a61cc9_t.jpgCatalina

 

[catalina_francisco]

LJ and Dix got it right.

Many times the activities that go on in life are the same whether you are in a D/s, M/s or vanilla relationship.

Actually RJ, it was my original point...it is something that is done as a matter of habit, upbringing etc., so I was asking (as you also touched on) how it is interpreted to be a trait that screams submission as some seem to feel it is, or at least symbolises their submission when it has ben the way they always did whatever the task is. I have always enjoyed sex in all its various forms, to me to now claim my willingness to have sex with him is a sign of the depth of my submission seems a little fake, and so I am asking, is this really a sign of submission when no different to how somone has been opperating for their adult years, or just another aspect of life for vanilla and D/s alike? BTW, I have never been told by him I have to do dinner in a certain way, have sex in a certain way etc.,...he sort of figures I am OK in those areas and so he only needs give direction where he thinks I could improve or change. I would think from the way a lot of people mention it, it is not something they have been told to do, but they see it as submisive now they are in a submissive role. If it is completely different to what they have ever done, perhaps it is, but then my mind always goes to whether it is our place as submissives to decide what our PYL wants and finds submissive without discussing it with them.

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/54/117251804_ae9567830e_t.jpg Catalina

 

[catalina_francisco]

Ok now what if you don't serve others first like me?? So for me this might be a sign of submission because I was told to modify my personal behavior. I have a few rough edges because in my childhood and teen years the parental units sucked ass on instruction.

That's my point..if it is something you are not used to doing but have been asked to, it seems to fit an act of submission more for me than if it is a lifelong habit.

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/34/117250791_d96a3c19c8_t.jpg Catalina

 

[catalina_francisco]

I'm in the middle of procrastinating over a paper I have due in about three hours, so I'm not thinking well enough to respond at the moment. I agree with what's been said, and I'll be back later.

Good luck with the paper...look forward to your input.

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/38/85366933_ee5cb061c5_t.jpg Catalina

 

[A Desert Rose]

edit to add: I always post in the context of the Male Dom/ fem sub but folks please feel free to put yourself and your label on my words. I hate using that pyl accronym...LOL.

I'm with you. I hate it, too.


The PC answer to your question is: Whatever a Dom and his sub decide it is. That's the answer that won't get everyone all pissed off and flaming me over what is real and what isn't.

Threads like these make me long for cymbidia again. She had the non-PC answers and wasn't afraid to post them.

 

[catalina_francisco]

No Cat I'm with ya.

i was always taught to serve myself last and to tend to the needs of my company first. But I think that it's a practice that is a bit out of date here in the states. As are many of the "rules" in the "book of manors".

While my mother planted these first rules I took it upon myself to learn more indepth some of the things that many around me concider old fasioned and unnessisary. But then I've always been wrapped in a place that is both far in distance and in time.

And I tend to agree on the other point as well. it just always made since to me to talk to my other in matters of importance. Sometimes I just need to talk things out so that I can make a decition. It makes the most since to talk to the one who has my best interst in mind.

LOL, we have that in common..I am fascinated with those etiquette rules...it annoys the heck out of me when someone puts the toilet roll around the wrong way!!

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/133/351858265_d56784859b_t.jpg

Catalina

BTW, the sketch is called "the Captain's Lady' so it seemed good for this post....sorry it isn't wench but as she is dropping her dress I think she has a lot of wenchiness in her.

 

[catalina_francisco]

I'm too fuzzy headed at the moment to do anything but quietly nod along with Cat...

LOL, I know that feeling well!!

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/46/117250790_d1780d4fee_t.jpg Catalina

 

[the captians wench]

Not necessarily, in fact I never assume that 'everyone' ever does anything in a particular way...we often have meals where the food is placed on the table as a buffet style way of eating, and it is a very Spanish way of eating as well so makes sense, but like in many things, we do not always eat the same way as it isn't always practical....especially for us on daily basis as we also have one who cannot eat with us but needs to eat. I would think though that outside special occasions, serving out dinner is probably the usual way for many people, though I could be mistaken. It isn't meant to be a question encouraging challenge, just an observation which makes me curious...I am a curious soul about everything in life.

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/41/98893069_5769a61cc9_t.jpgCatalina

You know, my mom is a funny bird. Even tho she taught me to be a proper hostess, she's a rather lazy one. When she has company over, she goes all out with dinner cooking for a couple of hours. But when it comes time to serve, she points where the plates and silverware are and leaves everything on the stove top. You have to be a very VERY special guest to get her to put things on the table, and I don't think she ever makes a plate for some one over the age of 5.

It's quite interesting actually. She did all sorts of things to "breed" me, to push me into growing into the "perfect lady". One that's often noticed is how I hold my cups with my pinky out. I know it absolutely fasinates my nephew, and really hindered my clarinet playing. I guess we always want something better for our children, and she thought this would make me better. *shrug*

 

[catalina_francisco]

I'm with you. I hate it, too.


The PC answer to your question is: Whatever a Dom and his sub decide it is. That's the answer that won't get everyone all pissed off and flaming me over what is real and what isn't.

Threads like these make me long for cymbidia again. She had the non-PC answers and wasn't afraid to post them.

She was a gem...I actually think I saw her elsewhere on the net awhile back, but not sure.

Catalina

 

[the captians wench]

LOL, we have that in common..I am fascinated with those etiquette rules...it annoys the heck out of me when someone puts the toilet roll around the wrong way!!

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/133/351858265_d56784859b_t.jpg

Catalina

BTW, the sketch is called "the Captain's Lady' so it seemed good for this post....sorry it isn't wench but as she is dropping her dress I think she has a lot of wenchiness in her.

*giggles* a wonderful pic, and you're right very fitting. And the fact she's not a wench is not terrible....there's a lady running around here with a likeness to me.

 

[catalina_francisco]

*giggles* a wonderful pic, and you're right very fitting. And the fact she's not a wench is not terrible....there's a lady running around here with a likeness to me.

LOL, well she resides with my daughter now as I drew her as a present for her...is happily amongst her huge collection of corsets and latex.

Catalina

 

[the captians wench]

LOL, well she resides with my daughter now as I drew her as a present for her...is happily amongst her huge collection of corsets and latex.

Catalina

*grins* And here i am slacking off in my corset making duity at the moment.

 

[A Desert Rose]

She was a gem...I actually think I saw her elsewhere on the net awhile back, but not sure.

Catalina

Yes, she was fearless, which is a trait in a sub that I admire a great deal. Wish I were more like her. I tend to cower very easily.

There wasn't much she didn't or couldn't address and only many levels.

Funny how we tend to not appreciate people until they're gone...

 

[CutieMouse]

Okay... I'm not necessarily any less fuzzy headed, but I'll give it a shot.

There are a gazillion things that are simple matters of ettiquite, good manners, etc, which many people use as examples of submission. 99.9% of these examples mean jack to me at face value, as they are things I expect from any civilized, polite, responisble, mature human being. So "I serve myself dinner last!" or "I talk over financial issues with him/her first!" as examples of submission, leave me sitting here going... 'k... and?

For myself (speaking with one particular person in mind), what defines my submissive identity, is that I simply do it. That one particular person need only suggest course A is better than course B, and I trust them and follow course A. That one particular person need only say they expect XYZ to occur, and I say "Yes, Sir"- then do it. The submissive part of me attempts to think of that person and their needs, before my own, 24/7. Their comfort, needs, wishes, desires, happiness, stress, frustrations, etc, are all a half-step ahead of mine, in importance. This isn't to say I ignore my own needs, or that I consider myself to be less important... I trust the person I grant that devotion to, to work with me to ensure my needs are met, trust me to be intelligent enough to oversee the aspects of my Life that I alone am responsible for, and cherish me to the degree I deserve.

I guess the long-winded comments above could be summed up by saying there are few "outward" examples of submission, that I consider to be signs/proof of one's submission; IMO, submission lies between the ears.

 

[babiesmiles]

My answer is not related to the deep meaning of being submissive , cause I am not enough skilled to make an articulate proper post about it yet .

My thought is more related to a trait of being submissive I am dealing now, with great efforts and inner troubles .

I am talking about obedience , but not that kind which one happily accepts with the aim to please the PYL when things run smoothly, I talk about that kind of obedience which makes you accept the other's wishes and decisions even if you (impersonal you ) don't share your Dom vision , even if you doubts , even if your trust is undermined , even if you wonder you are doing well , doing it cause it is just right in that moment and in that situation with that person.

It is a great exercise to put into proportions a too exuberant ego, to round off a too rebellious disposition , to recover a lost humbleness maybe to become a better person if not a better submissive.

I am doing that at the moment and I recognize for me it is a great lesson not only in Bdsm field but in life .

 

[catalina_francisco]

My answer is not related to the deep meaning of being submissive , cause I am not enough skilled to make an articulate proper post about it yet .

My thought is more related to a trait of being submissive I am dealing now, with great efforts and inner troubles .

I am talking about obedience , but not that kind which one happily accepts with the aim to please the PYL when things run smoothly, I talk about that kind of obedience which makes you accept the other's wishes and decisions even if you (impersonal you ) don't share your Dom vision , even if you doubts , even if your trust is undermined , even if you wonder you are doing well , doing it cause it is just right in that moment and in that situation with that person.

It is a great exercise to put into proportions a too exuberant ego, to round off a too rebellious disposition , to recover a lost humbleness maybe to become a better person if not a better submissive.

I am doing that at the moment and I recognize for me it is a great lesson not only in Bdsm field but in life .

It is indeed a wonderful lesson, and often far from easy even after taking those steps. The trust undermined is a bit concerning, though I am thinking you could mean it in a way which is not so much that something has been done to undermine your trust in your PYL, but that you might be having the boundaries of that trust tested now it has moved beyond the fun and easy stage? I know I struggle continuously with submission on these levels. I could easily do the things I love, like or can accept easily until the cows come home, but those tougher ones which mean stepping out of my comfort zone, perhaps choosing between what I think is right and he wants, being taken into areas where I fear to tread for a variety of reasons, they continue to make me pull out all my inner strength and meditate on my submission to get through, and even then it is not easy.

Catalina