Thoughts on Point of View

KillerMuffin

Seraphically Disinclined
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Jul 29, 2000
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After reading Ray's thread on, er, I forgot the title. Sorry, Ray. Anyway, after reading Ray's thread I thought about POV a lot, myself.

Here are my thoughts, they don't reflect anyone's opinion but my own and they aren't written in stone, the world according to KM because that's exactly how it should be. They're just what I think.

Note: Stories were selected as examples because they were all in the same category, the were written in that particular POV, and they are all rated between 4.20 and 4.40.

Second Person is the most abused point of view. It can be done well. Really. I like to think I proved it, but that's pure arrogance on my part. Unfortunately, it's one of those POVs that's next to impossible to do well and usually only works under certain conditions. My Second Person story essentially "feels" like one is reading a letter written to someone else.

Almost all of the Second Person stories on the site are the author speaking directly to the reader. This is a total no-no in my book. I don't know anyone with the sheer talent to write a story like that without instantly alienating 95% of their audience. I tell everyone "don't do it." Personally, I believe that Laurel should remove and reject any second person story written in this vein simply because these stories are terrible. The writing didn't do it, just a poor choice of perspective. That's just me, there are some people who claim to adore these stories.

First Person is the most frequently used one on the site. I think it's the main POV beginners write because it appears to be so easy. In ways, it is. It's easy to get your thoughts on paper when you're "I" explaining what has happened (or more accurately what one wishes had happened). It's a lot harder to write a character when you aren't the character. Most creative writing classes will have you start out by writing a few What I did this summer kind of stories to get it out of your system.

I think that, of the two "good" perspectives, writing first person well is the most difficult. In the average porn story it's not, it's like a Penthouse letter (personal anecdote) and any other perspective wouldn't work. However, in a story-story, where "I" is not the author, first person is a bitch to write. Why? It's all in character development. Developing any character outside of "I" is a pain because everything those characters do and say is filtered through "I"s editorial commentary. Developing these characters independently--that is, in such a way that the reader sees these characters in ways that "I" does not--is hard to do. Most Lit writers never even bother. This is one of the reasons why I am not particularly fond of seeing the more "story" stories written in First Person. It's not done well and it's more like a trumped up Penthouse letter. Of course, these are neither the exception or the rule. There are a lot of good First Person stories out there that are good enough to enjoy, at least for me to.

Third Person. I don't write in this perspective very often, at least not in porno. I little less than half, I'd say. This is the POV I prefer to read, though. This is the POV that I, personally, believe that beginning writers should stick with. Third Person, past tense. Why? It's mainstream. We've been reading Third Person, past tense since we started reading stories with plots in them. Most of the popular fiction is that way. It's the English speaking comfort zone.

It also forces the author to distance him or herself from the main character. This is a good thing. It teaches the author to write characters that say and do things the author wouldn't do. It teaches the author to develop the rest of the characters in the story, as well. We also helps to avoid those nasty slips where "I" knows things about the rest of the characters that "I" couldn't possibly know.

And I'm spent. I forgot my point, too.

Drat.
 
A Question Km?

Third Person. I don't write in this perspective very often, at least not in porno. I little less than half, I'd say. This is the POV I prefer to read, though. This is the POV that I, personally, believe that beginning writers should stick with. Third Person, past tense. Why? It's mainstream. We've been reading Third Person, past tense since we started reading stories with plots in them. Most of the popular fiction is that way. It's the English speaking comfort zone.

I was curious as to your reasons for not writing in the POV of view that you most like to read?


Thank you in advance,

Omni :rose:
 
*shrugs*

Challenge, something different, the story dictates the POV. My current book is in first person because I wanted the challenge. It's been hard to write. Usually, though, it depends on the story and what tone I want to set with it. I used to pick first person just because it seemed easier. Nowdays, I choose the POV deliberately before I start writing.

I also choose which character's perspective I'm going to use, including switches in perspective in third person stories, prior to writing.

I've got something up in all three POVs.

I prefer to read romance novels, but I never write them.
 
I've read it on the boards before that First Person is the most often used on Lit because the authors are generally writing about characters experiencing sexual situations. First Person is the most personal an author can get with a single character. The experience, the images, the smells - all perception of the scene is from one person. It's as if you were inside their body, their mind, hearing the words as well as their subconscious.

Although, I believe that it's easy to see where stories like Group Sex or possibly Non-consent might benefit from getting multiple views of the story and characters using Third Person.

Personally, I feel most at "home", safe, whatever you want to call it with first person.

I've now written three third person stories in-a-row, and I find myself longing to get back to a first person POV.

-------

Funny, KM, when I opened this thread, I thought you were going to be talking about "character POV" rather than "author POV." Maybe next time.

-------

;)
- Judo
 
Mz. Muffin,

I understood your point perfectly. I have written in first person in only one series for the reasons that you state. The only reason I chose first person is that I wanted to capture some of the old paperback PI novel flavor. It is difficult to do successfully, and one of the techniques of character definition that I use to help avoid the filtering that you describe is to use "I" as a witness to interactions between the other characters. While there is some filtering taking place, it is not so complete as developing the other characters solely on the thoughts of, and upon the recounting of the speech and actions of others by, "I".

Second person? Maybe if I ever write a story which consists only of consecutive love letters by one person to another, but one-sided conversations are not usually very interesting. I also seldom read past the first "You did this" before racing for the back button. It bothers me to have the author telling me what I did, and, since I am male, is especially bothersome if the narration is by a male speaking to a female. I would much rather read about what someone else did.

Third person is comfortable to write as well as read, because I have more control over the characters and situations, although at times, well defined characters can steal my story outline and change it. This power over the characters and situations does open the way to commit the sin of "convenient mention". "Convenient mention" is the explanation of a statement or action by relating something that happened in the past. This is a little too omniscient for me, and I believe the explanation should occur before the act that needs it. While this problem exists with first person also, I have found it more prevalent in third, and takes the form of - "Dave did... (whatever he did) because of a conversation he and Sue had last week". Once in a while, this can be done well, but I would rather avoid the attempt.
 
I plan to attempt 1st person in the story I'll start after the Chain Story. It is largely an exercise for me, because I enjoy varying my writing style and characters. Not only will I try a new POV, but I will also be writing half of it from the main male character, which is a completely new experience for me--at least with the 1st person I have, ahem, background practice.

(Strangely, I've been so bludgeoned over the head with "First person bad! Third person good!" that I tend to slip in the middle of dialogue and switch to "she does this to him" rather than the obviously correct "I do this to you." Not that you know what I'm talking about. ::cough cough::)

I hope to do it well, and I have read enough good 1POV that I believe myself ready to step up to the challenge. I do agree that third is easier, but I'm confident enough of my technique there that I think straying from my well-beaten path is a wise career option. I can't imagine doing good 2POV. I might try that as well, once I have time and ego to spare.
 
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Thank you KM

Once again KM has stated succinctly what I was fumbling around with trying to say.

Thank you KM. Someday I hope to improve my debating skills to the point that I can actually communicate my ideas successfully. Untill then ...

Ray
 
For the most part, I completely agree with you KillerMuffin. I personally have a real lack of desire to read anything in the second person POV. I have only ever written in that style once, and it was a small minor fantasy piece. The "You" involved was a dragon. I wrote it as a challenge to myself, and although I submit most of my work to publications, that one still sits in my desk drawer.

As to erotica, I agree with JUDO in regards to first person POV. It conveys the feelings, both physical and emotional of the main character directly to the reader, and allows them to put themselves inside the story. I rarely write in the first person outside of erotica, it doesn't have the same effect on the reader in other genres.

I prefer third person for more "outside the norm" erotica. That's why I wrote "Sated Hunger" in the the third person. I wanted to convey the desires of both main characters, and let the reader feel both of their motivations. I actually feel it's the best of the three stories I've submitted, but it doesn't appeal to as broad a base of the readers here.

That's basically my viewpoint on POV.
 
We've gotten into POV shifts on boz's thread "Changing Voices". IMHO, it's worth repeating that there are different types of third person POV.

I've got a hunch, that when a lot of writers say third person, they're thinking about third person "omniscent." That's where the author plays god and can head-hop freely within chapters, scenes, or even paragraphs. Romance writers often use ominscent during love scenes so they can switch back and forth between the characters.

The other common form of third person is "limited". In this situation, the POV is usually restricted to just one character per scene or chapter or even book. IMHO, this is the easiest for new writer's to work in since it eliminates a lot of the problems that can arise with POV ID when using omniscent.

Rumple Foreskin
 
Oh, no! Not second person!

I have only ever written one story in second person POV - it was intended for an audience of one. For me, that is the only way second person POV will work. I don't care for present tense, either, but it works when it's well written. I always use past tense, and I vary between first and third person POV for my work, increasingly third. My piece for the current chain story (due to be posted Friday - shameless plug!) is in third, but not omniscient - I have tried to keep the 'internal knowledge' to my main character, Emma, and let her learn about the others by what they do and say. You can all point out where I failed after Friday!

Generally I find myself agreeing with much of what has been said, but like Judo, I'm kinda fond of first.

Alex
 
I think beginners and amateur authors (myself included) use 1st person more often as they are usually describing a fantasy. 90% of author's first novels will have them as the lead character (including many professionals, regard James Clavell) and it is more natural to write as "I" rather than "he." However I'd like to think I do 1st person well. Admittedly I have done 1st person very badly before, but I think done well it can give extra life to a story based around a central character. WildSweetOne said somewhere that she didn't think about POV, the story just came. That's true for me too, but the type of stories I write suit 1st person. Or at least that's what I think.

Someone said about 1st person stories prevent you from seeing a balanced viewpoint as everything must be through the eyes of one character. The film "One Night at McCools" is actually spectacularly bad, but the precept is interesting. The story is told from the POVs of three male characters, who each impose stereotypes on the female character, played by Liv Tyler. You never see exactly what Liv Tyler's character is actually like as you never get an objective viewpoint, you only see what the three men see her as (homely, temptress, demure, etc.).

I don't like 3rd person limited as I think that it is a copout. 3rd person should always be omniscient IMHO, which is why 1st is vital if you need to hide information from the reader. However that is just a matter of personal opinion.

The Earl
 
i have a story which i am playing around with at the moment. it's not an erotic one.

it involves the death of a spouse due to illness. i wish to have the POV of first person for each of the three main characters in the story.

my reason is that such an illness is expected to effect each character in completely separate ways and i want to be able to show that in my story. writing in a first person POV will give me the depth in the story that i am looking for. i didn't plan it as first person POV btw, it just happened like that as does the majority of my writing.

i've not given serious thought as to which of my stories are in which particular POV before. i simply start tapping the keys or pick up the pen and the story unfolds. i enjoy the uncertainty, so i'm likely to keep things this way for now.

just as i know i can write anything i set my mind to, i also know i can write in any POV, though i haven't yet tried second person. hows that for an odd thing to say.

switching POV without understanding what is involved in the skill is very painful for me as a reader to read. if it's not done properly then you've lost me, i will click out of your story quicker than i clicked into it. likewise, if i don't do it well, then i know full well i've lost you as a reader, and deservedly so.

The Earl i agree with your first sentence. it was that way for me. my first stories were personal fantasies (don't hunt them out, they need rewriting rofl). it's much easier to write a personal fantasy in a first person POV because the five senses can all be shown more easily in this manner.

i believe that all stories have POV which can work in any direction. it's the skill in the author who can portray an exact POV in a correct manner which counts.
 
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TheEarl said:
I don't like 3rd person limited as I think that it is a copout. 3rd person should always be omniscient IMHO, which is why 1st is vital if you need to hide information from the reader. However that is just a matter of personal opinion.

I dont think there is a great deal of difference in First Person and Third Person Limited, because the focus of either is usually limited to a single person at a time.

Actually, I think how you focus your narrative is just as important as what point of view you use.

On another thread, KM named Two Bag For The Bride as her favorite story. That story just happens to be in first person with a single focus on the narrator's view of how he came to be getting married. It's also in a conversational mode, for the most part, -- like the narrator is "confessing" to a friend over drinks.

That story would, IMHO, have failed miserably in any other mode. Other stories require a different story-telling style. I personally feel most comfortable writing in a conversational First Person mode with a single focus throughout a story, but I let the story determine the best story-telling mode, focus and POV.

[disclaimer]
Dirty Old Man is my pen name and TBFTB is my story.
[/disclaimer]
 
POV

Since film and TV, point of view in literature has become much more sophisticated and diverse.

The stage play gave audiences a relataively detached viewpoint, similar to the "omniscienct" point of view in traditional (19th century) novels.

The intimacy of films, and particlarly TV gave the individual a lot more screen real-estate, and allowed subtler actors to become predominant. Literature zoomed in to the individual too, giving rise to a lot more close-up (third person restricted) forms.
Experimental films were made, particularly in Europe with first person films, but these don't really work, because its much harder to show introspection and internal responses to events wothout seeing one's face than it is to tell them in words ("I felt good.")
The noncontinuous present , "He goes out, he eats a cake..." is also a very film-influenced style. Damon Runyon used this in Guys and Dolls, but that is because he was trying to evoke the New York hoodlum language, which like London's, used the present tense a lot.

Relativism, showing multiple points of view, has been done often in films and stories, particularly in the 1960's, when LSD probably was a major influence on a lot of exerimental artists, who started questioning the idea of "objective reality". This sort of thing takes a lot of planning, because you have to model the "real narrative" first. This is pretty similar to planning the various camera shots when making a movie, I think.

I also think the second person form of story decried so much in this forum has probably come about from people videoing their sexual partners. I think it's prefectly possible that a really great story could be written in this POV, and then it will probably become far more accepted. Videoing your sexual partner pretty is a pretty new phenomenon.

I certainly think that the worst thing to do is to attempt to lay down laws here. Tried and tested forms of writing work, and are unintrusive to the storytelling, because they're well-understood by readers, but other valid forms of telling stories are probably emerging all over the place.
 
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I agree that we tend to find third person past comfortable as it is the most used tense. However there is a lot to be said for the intimacy and immediacy that is conveyed in a well written first person narrative.

To my mind the first person is where we live our lives. We can only think that we know what is going through other persons minds, and we act accordingly. In some ways the extra knowledge that the omnipotence of the third person allows the author to have can warp our characters.

Reading the Anthology Best of American Erotica (leaving aside whether or not it is the best) I find that the majority of the stories are narrated in the first person past tense. Personally as a writer I like using both first and third person p.o.v's.

Basically I believe people should write using whatever p.o.v. they are comfortable with and should experiment with others. If KM's banning suggestion was followed no one would be able to experiment and why bother to write for a free site if you cann't try ideas out?

jon :devil:
 
1st person vs third person

jon, as you said, The first person allows the author a shortcut to the inner life of the main protagonist.
But the 3rd person is more voyeristic. Mirrors on the ceiling, setting up the video on a tripod in the bedroom, are really just ways to try to get a little 3rd person POV into sex.

I'd like to read a good omnisient 3rd person erotic story. I never have, but I haven't read all that much of erotica. I can't really imagine how the author could be dispassionate and distant, and also get the reader horny. But I'm sure it's possible.

Little did he know that thousands of miles away, just such a story was about to be submitted...
 
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Weird Harold said:


I dont think there is a great deal of difference in First Person and Third Person Limited, because the focus of either is usually limited to a single person at a time.

I am currently finishing a story that uses third person, but I am having great difficulties keeping each scene within a limited POV. The story is about how others are effected by witnessing the sexuality of someone they know.

So, I have written about three scenes where the POV switches from the person involved in the sex to the person watching the sex. In two of these scenes, the person watching has joined in.

But paragraph to paragraph, I am switching from one character's POV to another.

Problems?

-----

In most of the rest of the story, I am able to stick with one character's POV in a scene, but not the sex scenes in this one.

I mean, I could but then, what would be the point of having third person omniscient then?

Perhaps what I am doing is switching from third person limited in non-sex scenes to third person omniscient for the sex scenes.

If so, do you see a problem with this for the reader?

-----

I am being very careful to mention the character's name near the beginning of each paragraph, so as not to confuse.

;)
- Judo
 
"But paragraph to paragraph, I am switching from one character's POV to another.

Problems?"

--

It's a problem only because it's not easy to do well. However, romance writers commonly switch from third person limited to third person omniscent during love scenes (sometimes even within a paragraph) so they can quickly move back and forth between the characters.

IMHO, the only hard-and-fast "rule" for switching POV's is, "Thou shalt not confuse thy reader."

Rumple Foreskin
 
Just dipping into tenses quickly, has anyone written a story in the future tense? I've read several in the present (written some too, but nothing I'm proud of), but none in the future.

The Earl
 
TheEarl said:
Just dipping into tenses quickly, has anyone written a story in the future tense? I've read several in the present (written some too, but nothing I'm proud of), but none in the future.

The Earl

I've thought about trying it, but have serious doubts about making it work plausibly -- prophecies are generally short and cryptic and that won't work for a hot sex scene.

I have seen some second person, BDSM stories that are sort of Future tense -- "I'm going to tie you up and spank you until you come and then..." etc. Not terribly erotic to me, but I guess there are some who get off on anticipating what is described.
 
TheEarl said:
Just dipping into tenses quickly, has anyone written a story in the future tense? I've read several in the present (written some too, but nothing I'm proud of), but none in the future.

The Earl



For some reason, I see writing in the future tense (unless it's a promise to a particular person, which isn't necessarily a story) as being at best a trifle insane and at worst completely bonkers!

Maybe it's just me, but it's the kind of thing that might make a character/narrator/writer seem a little bit psychotic.



p.s. The Earl, that quote from Hitchhiker's has been bugging me. It's the 'unknown man' tag. I can't remember how it is in the books, but having thought about it all day, I seem to recall in the original radio show that the line is spoken by Rooster, a guy Zaphod meets in the Hitchhiker's Guide offices before they are taken away by the galactic police.

"My name's Rooster, and this is my towel."

"Hello, Rooster. Hello, Towel."

p.p.s. How dare you call me a sci-fi geek!

;)
 
JUDO said:
I've read it on the boards before that First Person is the most often used on Lit because the authors are generally writing about characters experiencing sexual situations. First Person is the most personal an author can get with a single character. The experience, the images, the smells - all perception of the scene is from one person. It's as if you were inside their body, their mind, hearing the words as well as their subconscious.

Although, I believe that it's easy to see where stories like Group Sex or possibly Non-consent might benefit from getting multiple views of the story and characters using Third Person.












- Judo
Like KM, I've written stories in second person and in first person. I, however, think that third person is usually the best choice, even when you have only one POV character.
Third person limited is a frequently used POV. I think it is a useful one.
As for second person, the reason it is often chosen is the reason stories in that POV style are usually bad.
 
My Viewpoint on Point of View

KillerMuffin said:
Almost all of the Second Person stories on the site are the author speaking directly to the reader. This is a total no-no in my book. . . . The writing didn't do it, just a poor choice of perspective. That's just me, there are some people who claim to adore these stories.

I share your loathing of second person. Though my impression has long been that the author in most second person stories isn't speaking to the reader, but rather to the author's 'fantasy lover.' It's an attempt to create an illusion of intimacy, allowing the author to self-indulgantly luxuriate in her (2nd person stories seem 95% written by females) own emotions, while leaving the reader on the sideline, detached and neglected.

This is my speculation, as my periodic question on the Board "what mental process leads authors to choose that POV?" invariably goes unanswered. It's perversely common (often made more perverse by the use of present tense), and the reason is a mystery to me still.

My further guess is that those claiming to love second person are males with the ability to create their own illusion that the author really is speaking to them.

Sub Joe said:
[T]he 3rd person is more voyeuristic.

Brilliantly said. :)

Perhaps then it's little wonder why I've written mainly in third person.

There are actually three variants of third person (I've not seen this delineated on this thread).

TP Objective (sometimes called the 'camera lens view'), where the author describes the action as an observer (albeit a keenly perceptive one) would see it. I tried this in my last story and found it very (too) challenging.

TP Omniscient Limited (where the author adopts the omniscient perspective of a single character at a time)

TP Omniscient (where the thoughts of multiple characters are presented).

I think TP O Limited is the most natural in which to write. We experience reality from a single frame of reference. At the same time, the omniscience allows the reader to explore the depths of a character. (I'm puzzled why TheEarl called this a 'cop out.')

TP O can be effective; it can also be jumpy and confusing to the reader as one has to keep track who's head one is supposed to be inside.


On the 'First' versus 'Third' question: I've been reading "American Greatest Short Stories' ed. by John Updike. The are stellar examples of both POV's, though the more common is third person.

My sense here is that some favor first person for perceived erotic impact. Others favor third person for perceived literary impact (my own viewpoint). Apart from that generalization, I don't see much need to hash over the issue.
 
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i read a second person POV recently. i have to admit it sounded a little different at first, but i was soon dragged into the story. i found it was well written and the way the story was set it was the perfect choice for POV.

i think that there is such a diversity of skill and preference with each individual author and such a diversity of need and preference with each individual reader, that no matter what POV we choose to write in there will always be something that works for both.

it's an interesting exercise to take one story and write it in every different POV. i have a distinct feeling the original POV is what the story sounds best in.

i think the key to remember here, is to stick with whatever POV you have begun writing in. otherwise the writing just turns out bad and the reader back clicks out of the story quicker than a wink.
 
MaxSebastian: I actually wrote the quote from memory, so I have no leg to stand on if I'm calling you an obsessed freak. I think I paraphrased to put it into narrative form. Rooster is referred to as "the man" up to the point where he introduces himself.

"Beeblebrox, over here."

Zaphod eyed the man with suspicion. "No, Beeblebrox over here! Who are you?"

"A friend" the man shouted back.

"Anyone's friend in particular or just generally well disposed towards people?"


Off-topic? Me? Never.

The Earl
 
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