Thoughts on ghostwriting

[apple_lecture]

Is it frowned upon to ghostwrite abandoned stories? Assuming it's been a number of years, you have attempted to contact the orginal author with no response, and you give credit to the original author.

 

[SimonDoom]

Is it frowned upon to ghostwrite abandoned stories? Assuming it's been a number of years, you have attempted to contact the orginal author with no response, and you give credit to the original author.

Yes it is frowned upon. If an author disappeared for reasons of their own, they are not obligated to explain them to you. It's copyright infringement, plain and simple, for you to reproduce their stories or write subsequent chapters of them. Giving credit doesn't change that.

Not to be snarky -- you may be asking this out of respect for that author's work. But the rules on this issue are quite simple.

 

[KeithD]

Yes. They aren't your property and it's only you assuming they are abandoned. It's not the story owner's responsibility to respond to use requests. Write a parallel version of your own.

 

[apple_lecture]

This is just an honest discussion. I'm not an author or writer, I just enjoy talking about the writing process.

It's copyright infringement, plain and simple, for you to reproduce their stories or write subsequent chapters of them. Giving credit doesn't change that.

If it's frowned upon to use character's of other literotica authors without expressed permission, then why is deemed okay to use characters of other authors or even real people? I'm referring to the celebrity and fan-fiction section of the website. Why is this ethically okay?

 

[SisterJezabel]

Is it frowned upon to ghostwrite abandoned stories? Assuming it's been a number of years, you have attempted to contact the orginal author with no response, and you give credit to the original author.

Before I realised this was not the done thing, I edited a story someone had written depicting the ending as they saw it. It was not published as they could not publish Chapter D without publishing chapter ABC etc.

 

[SimonDoom]

This is just an honest discussion. I'm not an author or writer, I just enjoy talking about the writing process.



If it's frowned upon to use character's of other literotica authors without expressed permission, then why is deemed okay to use characters of other authors or even real people? I'm referring to the celebrity and fan-fiction section of the website. Why is this ethically okay?

It's an excellent question. There's not an easy answer.

You can't answer it with logic, exactly. You have to look at the actual, real-world circumstances under which stories are published.

Somebody like EL James has made gazillions of dollars from her Shades of Grey series. Does fan fiction hurt her or help her? It probably helps her. It boosts awareness and popularity of her stories. More people, not fewer, will buy her books because of fanfiction stories they've read on the Internet about Christian and Anastasia. Arguably, in theory this fanfiction is copyright infringement. But in the real world it doesn't hurt her. So there are plenty of cases where authors in the world "out there" turn a blind eye to this stuff because they recognize that it probably improves their bottom line.

It's totally different with stories published here. Nobody is making money off of these stories, unless they publish them on pay sites elsewhere. They publish for their own personal and artistic reasons. They have a right to do so and a right to expect that those reasons will be respected. The Site wants to encourage them to do so and one way it can is to make sure that other writers don't have a right to write a continuation of an existing story published here without permission of the author.

 

[KeithD]

If it's frowned upon to use character's of other literotica authors without expressed permission, then why is deemed okay to use characters of other authors or even real people? I'm referring to the celebrity and fan-fiction section of the website. Why is this ethically okay?

In many cases it isn't ethically OK. Laurel tries to keep a tight rein on the celebrity category here in as far as she understands it. The presumption isn't there, however, that what is accepted here is ipso facto ethically OK. I don't think any of the site owners are ethics lawyers.

There's a big area of "not ethical" in this realm--and what you asked about isn't ethical. Beyond that, some of it isn't legal either. You've expanded the question to using real people in writing. There's a sliding scale on legal depicting of real people--the more public a figure they are (and the deader they are) the less protection they have against libel. Characters are a different issue--they might be copyrighted or trademarked, but, if not, they are more up for grabs than real people, who can rightfully go after you in court if you write about them doing/being something you can't evidence they would be/do. (Would you like to be depicted as a street prostitute purposely infecting others with STDs in somebody's story?)

The bottom line on the ethics is to put yourself in the shoes of the "other," completely stripping away what you want to do for you or is convenient for you, and think about whether you'd want someone to do this with your personal property--or, in the fan fiction arena depict your mother/sister/brother/father this way simply because they were known in public. And try not to assume they would be just fine with it because you want it that way or can't get them to answer your use requests.

The question was "frowned upon" not whether it would/would not slip through to being posted. Repeated iterations of "but I wanna" or "but Johnnie got away with it" don't change the ethics.

 

[Ginlover]

Somebody like EL James has made gazillions of dollars from her Shades of Grey series. Does fan fiction hurt her or help her? It probably helps her. It boosts awareness and popularity of her stories. More people, not fewer, will buy her books because of fanfiction stories they've read on the Internet about Christian and Anastasia. Arguably, in theory this fanfiction is copyright infringement. But in the real world it doesn't hurt her. So there are plenty of cases where authors in the world "out there" turn a blind eye to this stuff because they recognize that it probably improves their bottom line.

As the EL James original was fanfiction of Twilight I’m sure she understands the power of fanfiction. The After series is One Direction fanfiction. Both writers changed the names and removed vampire and music references respectively and hit the jackpot.

Fanfiction is a grey area, if an author and website are not making any money using direct copies of fictional characters owned by someone else it appears to not infringe copyright. I believe it’s because the original creator can’t sue for a share of the profits if there are no profits. Lit does make a profit from advertising which must limit how ff is handled.

A few authors have publicly declared their dislike for fanfiction of their work, I think this includes Harry Potter ff.

I don’t understand the legal aspect around real people but I’ll guess deformation of character is the issue.

What I have seen on here is a writer use their own characters and write their own story but put inspired by xxxx in authors notes and referencing another story published on here by a different author.

 

[Bramblethorn]

This is just an honest discussion. I'm not an author or writer, I just enjoy talking about the writing process.

If it's frowned upon to use character's of other literotica authors without expressed permission, then why is deemed okay to use characters of other authors or even real people? I'm referring to the celebrity and fan-fiction section of the website. Why is this ethically okay?

Not a simple question to answer.

Some authors have given their blessing to fanfic (usually with a "but for legal reasons, I can't read it" caveat), so in those cases it seems pretty unobjectionable.

Beyond that, I think there is an argument to be made that fanfic of big or even medium-sized properties is not the same as one Literotica author writing a continuation of another's story.

If you write epic fantasy, you're working in the shadow of J.R.R. Tolkien. Even if you've never read his work directly, you've encountered countless other stories that are influenced by his work, and anything you write in the genre is likely to be compared to his creation (and these days, also to Game of Thrones). Similarly for H.P. Lovecraft in cosmic horror, J.K. Rowling in modern fantasy, etc. etc.

Each of those properties has its strengths and its flaws. Given how pervasive they are, people need to be able to dissect and critique them (and sometimes their authors). Sometimes fanfic is the best way to do that - cf. works like Ruthanna Emrys' "Innsmouth Legacy", or even Chuck Tingle's "Trans Wizard Harriet Porber And The Bad Boy Parasaurolophus".

But Literotica stories just aren't that big. It's harder to make the case that the need for fanfic as a form of commentary/critique should outweigh the author's wishes and copyrights.

Real-person fic is a very different can of worms. There are arguments to be made for why it might be unethical, but AFAICT they don't translate very well to copyright/fanfic issues.

 

[Bramblethorn]

Fanfiction is a grey area, if an author and website are not making any money using direct copies of fictional characters owned by someone else it appears to not infringe copyright. I believe it’s because the original creator can’t sue for a share of the profits if there are no profits.

It's more complicated than that. The nature of the use (profit/non-profit) is one of the factors considered in evaluating fair use, but not the only one. A non-profit use can still be infringing, and a for-profit use can be fair use, depending on other factors.

A few authors have publicly declared their dislike for fanfiction of their work, I think this includes Harry Potter ff.

I think her position on this has shifted somewhat over the years, but last I heard JKR was okay with HP fanfic as long as it's suitable for children. Obviously that doesn't help much on this site...

 

[BobbyBrandt]

The bottom line on the ethics is to put yourself in the shoes of the "other," completely stripping away what you want to do for you or is convenient for you, and think about whether you'd want someone to do this with your personal property--or, in the fan fiction arena depict your mother/sister/brother/father this way simply because they were known in public.

I once had a cousin of a celebrity depicted in one of my 'Celebrity/Fan Fiction' stories ask that the post be deleted because he took offense at how his cousin was depicted. I honored the request without question.

It's all fiction, but we still need to be considerate of our fellow humans.

 

[Emirus]

Yes. They aren't your property and it's only you assuming they are abandoned. It's not the story owner's responsibility to respond to use requests. Write a parallel version of your own.

KeithD’s idea for writing your own parallel version of an unfinished story you really like is a good idea.

I’ve read what I consider good stories which are the beginnings of a series or a story which is, in my opinion, begging for a sequel. It may be the writer hasn’t passed away just stopped writing which may be for a myriad of reasons. But if they aren’t answering pm’s I think it’s probably not bad manners they’ve just lost interest in the site and have never read the pm.

When I began I linked up an email account I no longer used and is now specifically for this site. If I decided to abandon Literotica I’d never look at that email account again. So any messages would remain unread and unanswered.

If I did write a sequel to a story I would write my own version of the original. Obviously not all that different because if that was the case what would be the point? I would say between “inspired by” and a copy. Different enough that the writer of the original would feel flattered not angry. But I’ve enough ideas of my own I doubt it’s something I’ll ever get round to doing.

***

 

[SimonDoom]

Fanfiction is a grey area, if an author and website are not making any money using direct copies of fictional characters owned by someone else it appears to not infringe copyright. .

This is categorically untrue under American copyright law. Not true at all. It is entirely possible for a copyrighted author to sue another person for copyright infringement even if that other person has not made one penny off the infringement. The owner can sue for injunctive relief and get a court order to have the infringing work removed, or even destroyed, if there are physical copies, and depending on the circumstances the copyright owner may be able to get statutory damages (damages that don't require proof of actual injury) and reimbursement of attorney's fees and costs.

In the realm of fanfiction, this seldom happens, but that doesn't mean it can't happen, and there are some authors who take steps to protect their rights.

Fanfiction is very much a gray area, ethically and legally. I think there are three reasons that it continues to exist to the degree it does.

One is that going after fanfiction authors on free story sites where nobody is making money is more hassle than it's worth. There's nothing in it for the copyright owner. No harm no foul, although to an author for whom the principle of the thing matters more than anything else, it may seem like harm.

Another is that some fanfiction may arguably fall within the Fair Use exception to infringement -- that is, if the fanfiction story is a parody or transformative work that is so different from the original that it's fair to use it. This is a very, very gray area. Most fanfiction probably is NOT fair use. I wrote a fanfiction story that incorporated Frodo and Sam from Lord of the Rings. I rationalized that it was so ridiculous and such a departure from the Lord of the Rings narrative that it could be argued to be a parody, and therefore fair use. I looked into it and decided that the chance that the owners of the LOTR copyright would come after me was very, very small. But the legal position is not entirely clear.

The third reason, I think, is that astute copyright owners understand at some level that a lot of the free fanfiction in a sense adds value to their works, by sustaining a fanbase for the characters and therefore adding to, rather than detracting from, the overall consumer interest in, and desire to purchase, the original author's works.

 

[AvroAnson]

(Disclaimer: While I scored a cool 100% on my LSATs I was subsequently kicked out of school when it was discovered that my parents had been married to one another when I was conceived rendering me ineligible to practice law.)

As explained on a fan fiction only website elsewhere, the law (as opposed to ethics) regarding fan fiction, parody, satire and fair-use in the United States pertains to copyright and intellectual property. If an intellectual property is owned, editing and republishing or continuing the work is at the discretion of the owner.

There is a limited fair-use exception for attributed quotes if they merely "season" the story and "are not an ingredient." Parody is excepted in whole because "authors aren't likely to grant permission to those who wish to make fun of them." Parody is differentiated from Satire in that the former mocks a particular work or author and the latter pertains to society or literature as a whole.

Also, at least in the US, you must be a "public figure" (which of course lacks a clear definition) to be the subject of a Parody.

 

[SimonDoom]

(Disclaimer: While I scored a cool 100% on my LSATs I was subsequently kicked out of school when it was discovered that my parents had been married to one another when I was conceived rendering me ineligible to practice law.)

As explained on a fan fiction only website elsewhere, the law (as opposed to ethics) regarding fan fiction, parody, satire and fair-use in the United States pertains to copyright and intellectual property. If an intellectual property is owned, editing and republishing or continuing the work is at the discretion of the owner.

There is a limited fair-use exception for attributed quotes if they merely "season" the story and "are not an ingredient." Parody is excepted in whole because "authors aren't likely to grant permission to those who wish to make fun of them." Parody is differentiated from Satire in that the former mocks a particular work or author and the latter pertains to society or literature as a whole.

Also, at least in the US, you must be a "public figure" (which of course lacks a clear definition) to be the subject of a Parody.

None of this makes any sense or is true, starting with that item about your parents.

 

[apple_lecture]

It's totally different with stories published here. Nobody is making money off of these stories, unless they publish them on pay sites elsewhere. They publish for their own personal and artistic reasons. They have a right to do so and a right to expect that those reasons will be respected. The Site wants to encourage them to do so and one way it can is to make sure that other writers don't have a right to write a continuation of an existing story published here without permission of the author.

I'm not sure why money changes anything? Just because an author choose's to make money off of their work doesn't change how personal the story is to them. Especially given the sexualization added to stories on Literotica.

I was curious, so I did a google search to see if there was any statement on the topic, The author of Twilight, Stephanie Meyer, has said she wished that 50 Shades of Grey wasn't so sexualized. Link

If you write epic fantasy, you're working in the shadow of J.R.R. Tolkien. Even if you've never read his work directly, you've encountered countless other stories that are influenced by his work, and anything you write in the genre is likely to be compared to his creation (and these days, also to Game of Thrones). Similarly for H.P. Lovecraft in cosmic horror, J.K. Rowling in modern fantasy, etc.

I don't think comparing most fanfiction to works that are influenced or derivatives are entirely fair comparisons. It's not like J.R.R. Tolkien wrote the lord of the rings without inspiration, Beowulf, various religions, myths, not to mention the stories follow the Hero's Journey template.

Fanfiction is very much a gray area, ethically and legally. I think there are three reasons that it continues to exist to the degree it does.

I think there are two additional reasons fanfiction continues to exist.

First, the prohibtive cost of litigation. This may be considered a corollary of your first reason. I didn't really post this question to talk about the legal aspect of it. Fanfiction and using other author's characters and stories is already widely seen at best a grey area.

Second, author's and copyright holders want to avoid the Streisand effect. By attempting to ban/remove stories they just bring more attention to it.

 

[HankDolworth]

Be original, but cite the inspiration

I know after reading a series you can develop a connection with the characters, or the plot or lots of other points of a really good story.

My most active series is based on a pervious work by another Author. I checked and researched how he allows his IP (intellectual property). He has had many people mimic his stories, and some have gone on to be more popular than the first. So do your research, then create something more as a homage, than a direct fan fiction. State this story is inspired by _________ (whatever the original abandoned story was).

Then make sure you’re not using their characters, the plot needs to be different, etc etc.

There is nothing special about a school for wizards, there is something special about Hogwarts.

Harry Potter is a special unique character. Harriet Urn could be completely different.

You have to change up the beats, and the plot, but as an inspiration, fan fiction can be made original.

 

[AvroAnson]

The part in parentheses was a joke, a double entendre: "a word or phrase open to two interpretations, one of which is usually risqué or indecent."

-- Oxford English Dictionary

Persons whose parents are not married to one another at the time they are conceived are bastards:

"2. a person born of parents not married to each other."

-- Oxford English Dictionary

"1. an unpleasant or despicable person."

-- Oxford English Dictionary

So, as a joke, I was suggesting that as a NON "unpleasant or despicable person" I could not be an attorney.

"Publisher Larry Flynt provoked a lawsuit for damages for satirizing televangelist Jerry Falwell in a fake Campari ad in Hustler magazine. The U.S. Supreme Court unanimously agreed in Hustler v. Falwell, 485 U.S. 46 (1988), that a parody, which no reasonable person expected to be true, was protected free speech. The justices also stated that upholding the lower courts' decisions would put all political satire at risk. Alan Isaacman defended Flynt before eight justices, as Justice Anthony Kennedy recused himself."

"By definition, a parody is a comedic commentary about a work, that requires an imitation of the work. Satire, on the other hand, even when it uses a creative work as the vehicle for the message, offers commentary and criticism about the world, not that specific creative work."

-- Significant and Landmark US legal cases, US Library of Congress (004.00.00)

"Copyright, which is also grounded in the Constitution, gives the rightholder an exclusive legal right over his work, allowing him to restrict access to it, prevent others from using or reproducing it. If this were all there was to copyright law, a rightholder could certainly use his exclusive rights to block criticism and discussion, stifling free speech. Without proper safeguards, copyright law could conflict with the right to freedom of speech by giving the rightholder censorship rights."

"Without quoting dialogue, text, or lyrics we would just have to take the author’s word for it ..."

"While parodies are generally protected in this type of litigation, the role of satire is not as clear. This may be founded on the principle that satire does not have to rely on the original work in order to make its social statement, unlike parody."

"Because a rightholder would be unlikely to grant others the right to poke fun at him or his work an exception has been made for parody that imitates an existing artistic work, such as a film, music, art or literature in order to comment on it. Sometimes, parodies take the form of changing words in the work by using elements of irony. A parody gives an individual an opportunity to reference such a work and criticize it, often in a humorous manner as a distorted imitation of the original."

-- Copyright and the Law, Archibald Cox Legal Resource Center

 

[KeithD]

I once had a cousin of a celebrity depicted in one of my 'Celebrity/Fan Fiction' stories ask that the post be deleted because he took offense at how his cousin was depicted. I honored the request without question.

It's all fiction, but we still need to be considerate of our fellow humans.

I had to pull a book back from printing once when it hit me that the neighbors would see something in a short story in the book that had taken their circumstance and twisted into something evil. I hadn't meant to ding the neighbors this way; their circumstance had just inspired my imagination to go off into a tangent. I had to rewrite and pay a hefty change fee, but I can sleep at night about that one and I learned a lesson that's stuck with me. Never assume that it won't be seen and there won't be repercussions you'll regret.

 

[Hypoxia]

Is it frowned upon to ghostwrite abandoned stories? Assuming it's been a number of years, you have attempted to contact the orginal author with no response, and you give credit to the original author.

IMHO some basic guidelines for LIT:

• Do not build on others' works without their explicit permission. I've added invitations to stories for others to write new endings but I don't think anyone has yet.
• Write different stories that are suggested in Story Ideas, or are "inspired by" but not copied from an author's works. Be sure to cite your inspirations.
• Broadly parody an author's works but be careful to copy nothing. One of my tales satirizes a LIT author's phrasings but I did not name my inspiration, leaving readers to figure out who I parodied.

Be aware that LIT authors retain complete ownership of postings they spew upon the world. Expect to be robbed but don't steal yourself.

 

[Bramblethorn]

I don't think comparing most fanfiction to works that are influenced or derivatives are entirely fair comparisons. It's not like J.R.R. Tolkien wrote the lord of the rings without inspiration, Beowulf, various religions, myths, not to mention the stories follow the Hero's Journey template.

Yep, pretty much all fiction draws heavily on previous work, but I don't think that really addresses my point: when a particular property is large enough to be pervasive in a genre, it's important that people should have options for critiquing it, and fanfic is one of them.

 

[apple_lecture]

Yep, pretty much all fiction draws heavily on previous work, but I don't think that really addresses my point: when a particular property is large enough to be pervasive in a genre, it's important that people should have options for critiquing it, and fanfic is one of them.

What do you consider to be large/pervasive enough? A NYT bestseller is a book that sells 5000-10000 copies in a week. Is this the line? I don't have the numbers, but I wouldn't be surprised if stories on Literotica reach that many people.

I agree that being able to comment upon, critquing, reviewing, and parodying is important. Some fan fiction can fit these, but I'm not going to sit here and pretend that those are anything but a tiny minority. Most fan fiction is writers using characters, plot lines, the general universe, etc. because they enjoyed consuming the content and want to put their spin on it.

It seems that the community here "respects" fellow Literotica authors more than more typical authors.

 

[Bramblethorn]

What do you consider to be large/pervasive enough? A NYT bestseller is a book that sells 5000-10000 copies in a week. Is this the line? I don't have the numbers, but I wouldn't be surprised if stories on Literotica reach that many people.

My most-viewed story here has 76k views after 6 years here. That would include people re-reading and maybe some bots.

For a NYT bookseller, you'd want to factor in book-sharing, second-hand reselling, and library circulation to translate those numbers into total reach.

But it's not just numbers who've eyeballed it. People will talk to one another about a NYT bestseller they've read, in a way they don't do with porn. I would laugh at anybody who suggested my 76k views made me more influential than the lowliest book on the NYT list... certainly nobody's inviting me to do author events. I'm not going to try to draw a sharp line here.

It seems that the community here "respects" fellow Literotica authors more than more typical authors.

I'm sure that's part of it, but I don't think it's the whole story.

 

[Emirus]

[*] Write different stories that are suggested in Story Ideas, or are "inspired by" but not copied from an author's works. Be sure to cite your inspirations.

If the original author has agreed, for whatever reason, to allow you to write a story inspired by one of theirs then I think you should acknowledge this at the beginning of your story.

If this isn’t the case and you’ve simply used the original as inspiration for your story, and not just created a copy, without obtaining the original writer’s permission then naming them could have serious repercussions on yourself.

Some people would be quick to report the story and, as we know from posts not long ago, Laurel seems to delete stories without the writer knowing. I doubt she would read both stories fully and compare them but just adopt a “better safe than sorry” approach.

I’ve assumed you can report a story anonymously in which case you’d never discover who’s reported it but I don’t think you’d be given that information anyway even if the writer didn’t do it anonymously.

 

[AvroAnson]

Not trying to hijack the thread, nor am I criticizing anyone. Running a site like this is not something that I would want to do.

Some people would be quick to report the story

They are. And my guess based in my personal experience is that "they" aren't readers, but they are "haters" who wish to destroy this and all erotic sites.

and, as we know from posts not long ago, Laurel seems to delete stories without the writer knowing.

She does, I'm sure she is busy. It's her place and her rules. But this is a pet peeve of mine.

I know that assholes are trying to shut the site down, and I totally support whatever Laurel has to do to keep it up, but ...

It's vexing because the complaints against my stories, some of which had been posted here for 15-16 years were totally without merit. Rules against "underage content" for instance are meant to protect minors. The problem is when the store clerk starts critiquing grandma and grandpa's ID to buy a bottle of wine for dinner.

I just add a line or two and back up they go (minus those 16 years of votes and comments).

Disclaimers are meaningless, a story is either fiction (in which there are no real people, hence no real people under 18 or precisely 43 years of age) or it isn't. Just because I didn't say anywhere in the story that Doctor Johnson and Nurse Kelley weren't each over 18 ... Really?

I doubt she would read both stories fully and compare them but just adopt a “better safe than sorry” approach.

To me it's a mere annoyance. But the real harm is to the older submissions where the authors are not around to watch their library. That is why many stories here are missing chapters 11 here and 23 there. Some asshole complained that the characters in chapter 19 were underage or engaging in sapiosexual behavior (and not in chapters 1 - 18) so it's gone.

I don’t think you’d be given that information anyway even if the writer didn’t do it anonymously.

You won't be.