THIS is PATHETIC

[Guest]

She brushes my hair at midnight by Una Ryce

25% score with such a wonderful way of reviewing a new poet. <dripping with sarcasm>

poetry is something else
01/29/06 by Senna Jawa in sqrt(-1)
A poor poem. Too much around "me". "Let me shine" is particularly pathetic.

Poor language, e.g. "I give to her my mane". Word "this" occurs twice, and it is awful on both occasions. Several adjectives weaken the effect by plying and stuffing the reader with unnecessary words--Ezra Pound would say that these adjectives "dull the image". Etc, etc.

This is pretty darn sad. To review a new poet on Literotica using the words pathetic and awful is doing what? How did you really help this poet? Do you think she'll want to come back after this? Are you afraid she might improve and take you out of the fucking limelight or something?

Una is far from being a poor poet at the rating you marked her. You should be ashamed of yourself for not giving any encouraging words to this new poet on Lit.

Now I feel like I'm venting in public like twelveoone. But you know what? I'm not coming back to this thread. I'm done. I just had to say you're fucking rotten.

Edit: I'll always come back.

 

[Liar]

This puts the recent MET vs Negative Critics Inc. debacle in a whole new perspective, doesn't it?

I hope you channeled some of that energy into informing miss Ryce that she is free to ignore those who can't behave in a civilized manner.

 

[Senna Jawa]

(Indeed,) THIS (reaction to my comment) is PATHETIC

She brushes my hair at midnight by Una Ryce

To review a new poet on Literotica using the words pathetic and awful is doing what?

...is giving her a meaningful feedback (instead of joining your useless comment).

How did you really help this poet?
By giving her meaningful feedback. There is hardly anything more useful to a poet.

Do you think she'll want to come back after this?
She doesn't have to go away in the first place. If she's serious about poetry, she will appreciate my comment. If not then so be it. She is adult, responsible, there is no need to cry.

Are you afraid she might improve and take you out of the fucking limelight or something?
(What limelight?!!) Yeah, sure If that was my preoccupation then I would leave her to you, Saldne, so that she would stagnate for sure.

Una is far from being a poor poet at the rating you marked her.
It's not enough to be a good poet--you also have to write good poems.

You should be ashamed of yourself for not giving any encouraging words to this new poet on Lit.
I did encourage her by reading her poem, by being serious about her poem (not like you), and by giving her a solid, meaningful feedback. Now she may follow up my comment, she is in a position to ask sensible questions, and so on. For instance, she may ask me about the "Etc. etc." in my comment, because, in a contrast to you, I am responsible--when I write "etc." there is indeed "etc." (read: there are more problems with the poem than I have listed in my comment).

Now I feel like I'm venting in public like twelveoone. But you know what? I'm not coming back to this thread. I'm done.
I understand. After all, you post on Literotica 16.6 times per day, you need a breather.

I just had to say you're fucking rotten.
So you are the second person that just has voted 1 on my "achilles". Oh, how simple (simplistic) this is

Anyway, all poems should be treated objectively, regardless of the status of their author being "new" or "regular" or a favorite of Saldne. Also, we have right to our opinions without being exposed to the brutal abuse of language (to say the least) as practiced by Saldne.

 

[Senna Jawa]

This puts the recent MET vs Negative Critics Inc. debacle in a whole new perspective, doesn't it?

I hope you channeled some of that energy into informing miss Ryce that she is free to ignore those who can't behave in a civilized manner.

Liar, until recently I had a positive opinion about you. But you these days you get more and more sleazy. Wake up, stop it, have some self-respect.

Over the years we have seen on this forum a spectrum of hostile posts, from crude and violent to pseudo-cultural, pseudo-humorous cheap and dishonest intellectual sleaziness. Please, those who care and can help it, don't do it, it's not smart, it's stupid. It's not worth the effort of typing, it's not worth of anybody's time to read such dirt.

 

[WickedEve]

I read the poem and it's average for literotica. Perhaps SJ felt that it was below average, which is what 25% or a 2 represents.

Notice that I said "for literotica." Many poets here do not write poetry that would be accepted at many poetry sites. I realize that some of them come here not to be poets nor learn more about poetry. Some want to see their words online. They want the thrill of showing a friend, a lover, a Master, etc. I try to be encouraging to new poets, and the majority of 3s and 4s I give them are because they are literotica poets. We do have many writers here who write excellent poetry, but I think most of you know what I mean by the average lit poet. There are several new ones each day. They can barely write what I'd call poetry. I don't think Una's poem is that bad. Well, that was my first impression, and I've only read it once.

Will she run away and never come back? It happens. Poets leave often. We know this because one regular tells us that many are leaving because of harsh critiques. Sorry, but if you put your work out for the public, then it will be praised, criticized, ignored, and so on. If they run from that, then they probably run from other things in life. It's okay to be gentle with newbies, but I don't believe in constantly coddling them. I'm sure Una is tough enough to take negative feedback and continue on with her writing--hopefully learning something in the process.

 

[My Erotic Trail]

This puts the recent MET vs Negative Critics Inc. debacle in a whole new perspective, doesn't it?

I hope you channeled some of that energy into informing miss Ryce that she is free to ignore those who can't behave in a civilized manner.

Thanks liar,


it is these type of pathetic comments that need to be addressed. The poet does not know how to accept such rudeness for they are new and the critic has not the manners to contain their pompuss words. I see this alot <grin>

Senna could try a little kindenss but if it is not in their hearts then you know what type person this critic is, thoughtless.

 

[oggbashan]

You ain't heard nothing yet.

If the comments had been directed against my poetry - see link to stories in signature - then I could understand them being described as 'pathetic' because I do not claim to be a poet, but a writer of doggerel.

Constructive criticism is useful even if sometimes hard to accept. It seems harsh to attack a first poem so strongly, whatever your views about it.

Comments such as 'Wouldn't it have sounded better if...'; "Perhaps this phrasing could be better expressed...' are more appropriate. If you really think that the poem is dreadful and the poet is beyond advice then it is probably better not to comment at all.

Og

 

[Liar]

Liar, until recently I had a positive opinion about you. But you these days you get more and more sleazy. wake up, stop it, have some self-respect.

*shrug* I can't see that nither your attitude towards me or my attitude towards you has changed. I've said what I say here and elsewhere before, time and again.

My point with the post, seemingly misunderstood by you, was that you deliver solid feedback, but in a way that can not-at-all be considered polite, diplomatic, cuddly, whatever. And that whoever reads it should react professionally and not emotionally. That way they can learn stuff instead of getting discouraged and scared off.

That makes me sleazy? Alrighty, I can take that.

 

[Liar]

Thanks liar,


it is these type of pathetic comments that need to be addressed.

You're entitled to that opinion, but that's not what I was saying. So I don't quite know what you are thanking me for, when I say that your crusade about "rude" critics looks rather silly when one that really doesn't mince words emerges.

Seems like I need to practice Clarity In Posting, I'm repeatedly misread.

 

[TheRainMan]

Yes, the poem is mediocre (in my opinion).

And I defend Senna’s right to say that (not his manner in doing so), as long as he says why (which he did).

Though the manner in which he said it was rather harsh, his comment is certainly more accurate, and more helpful to the poet (from a writer’s perspective) than any of the other comments on that poem.

He did not leave a “this sucks” or “crapola” comment, with no foundation or exposition.

I believe Senna has a deep knowledge base about poetry, and he obviously has strong opinions (key word – opinions), which he is willing to explain and defend.

But if one takes the pedestal of “teacher,” which Senna does often, other things are necessary if you want to be an effective one, in my opinion.

I teach for a living, have for a while, and I’m pretty sure I know how to do the job fairly well.

And I have come to recognize the traits that separate a person who can impart knowledge to other human beings, and ones who, though they may understand subject matter, will probably be ignored (to everyone’s detriment, both teacher and pupil).

Good teachers never give false praise (except when dealing with children – and it is safe to assume there are no children here, not age-wise, anyway), since that amounts to lying and teaching is all about truth.

But good teachers also know they must motivate by working within their students’ incentive systems. They understand that the content they teach must be balanced with what they teach students about themselves, and about learning and personal achievement.

Good teachers have a positive attitude toward students and work to build self-confidence. They push pupils hard to not only master content, but also to reinforce their sense of personal achievement and their confidence.

They work to keep themselves and their students from complacency by positive interaction, and only then push them past the border of their comfort zone. They strive to challenge their confidence only so they may earn a newer and even larger confidence.

And good teachers listen to their students, their words and body language, and know what behavior on their part might make their students squirm or look for the exit sign. If they don’t, they will be disregarded.

Should Senna’s comment upset Una?

As a poet, no.

As a person, that is up to her.

Should it make her run away? Only if she’s a child,

and not if she’s a real writer.

 

[sophia jane]

Sorry, but if you put your work out for the public, then it will be praised, criticized, ignored, and so on. If they run from that, then they probably run from other things in life.

I just wrote and deleted a very long post responding to your comments, Eve, and to the thread as a whole. I've decided not to say everything I want to say, but I have to reply to this.
I think this is unfair. And frankly, cruel.
Not everyone puts their work out for the public because they want to be picked apart and criticized. And not everyone can handle it when said work is picked apart and criticized. I am one of those people. I've literally been brought to tears because of the way some here (one in particular) offers feedback. And so, yes, I avoid that kind of criticism now. I no longer post here, and I certainly do not offer my poetry here on the forums for feedback because I'm aware that I can't handle it. I will never be a great poet, and I'm okay with that. I don't write for greatness or for awards or even to be published for real. I write for me, what's in my heart and what I want to share with others. Lit gives me the chance to do this, and I'm more than happy with being just a "literotica poet".
But that doesn't mean I run away from other things in life, nor does it make it okay to tell me my work is crap. Not all of us want to be cut down into pieces for writing what's in their heart.

Just my 2 cents.

 

[WickedEve]

I just wrote and deleted a very long post responding to your comments, Eve, and to the thread as a whole. I've decided not to say everything I want to say, but I have to reply to this.
I think this is unfair. And frankly, cruel.
Not everyone puts their work out for the public because they want to be picked apart and criticized. And not everyone can handle it when said work is picked apart and criticized. I am one of those people. I've literally been brought to tears because of the way some here (one in particular) offers feedback. And so, yes, I avoid that kind of criticism now. I no longer post here, and I certainly do not offer my poetry here on the forums for feedback because I'm aware that I can't handle it. I will never be a great poet, and I'm okay with that. I don't write for greatness or for awards or even to be published for real. I write for me, what's in my heart and what I want to share with others. Lit gives me the chance to do this, and I'm more than happy with being just a "literotica poet".
But that doesn't mean I run away from other things in life, nor does it make it okay to tell me my work is crap. Not all of us want to be cut down into pieces for writing what's in their heart.

Just my 2 cents.

You only focused on criticize. I said praise, also. A poet who offers his work to the public may be ignored or praised. It's up to the reader. We have no control over the reader. I'm never cruel. I was telling you the way I feel about it. I don't mind praise. I don't mind constructive criticism. I know many of the people who comment on my poetry. Sometimes they like, sometimes they don't. I don't run away. I just write another poem.

 

[annaswirls]

I think that if people are here to share poems, and not looking to make improvements, that is fine. I would suggest you leave a note at the bottom of each of your poems requesting that no one critique your poetry. To me, this would be doing EVERYONE a big favor because giving a thorough, honest critique takes a lot of time, time that SJ etc. could spend on people who wish to improve.

It will not stop people from commenting if they want to, but it will save people time.

Or turn your comments and voting off.


Or delete the mean comments and if the critic left a name, write them and ask them to refrain from commenting in the future. As I said, reading someone's poem and taking the time to comment is a gift to the poet.

I got upset by some very harsh critiques when I first came here, and it still stings a little but you get used to it... you realize that it is not about YOU.

One time, Champ wrote "I don't get it, what is so great about this poem?" and then went on to point out its flaws and weaknesses..... all after 10 people wrote how great it was. And her opinion counted as much as the others. I worked on that poem for over a year before I felt it was ready to share again. I think that we need BOTH. If I had not gotten the praise, I might not have seen it as a poem worth working on, and if I had not gotten the ego deflation, I would never have thought to work on it more.

But really people, come on, if you do not want to be a "serious" poet then shrug off the comments and say "Oh well, whatever, I don't want to be a serious poet anyway this person made a mistake"


I mean, if someone criticized my fingernails, I mean really really MEAN criticized them, I would laugh and say- I know aren't they horrible? And go on with my day because I could give a fuck about my fingernails. They do their job. They do what I want them to, and if I wanted them to do more, I would do something about it.

blah blah blah where are the other 10 threads on this subject I should have just posted a link to the last time I wrote all this.


Life is filled with cruelity. I can sleep knowing someone was cruel to my poetry. Save the tears for something serious.

I just wrote and deleted a very long post responding to your comments, Eve, and to the thread as a whole. I've decided not to say everything I want to say, but I have to reply to this.
I think this is unfair. And frankly, cruel.
Not everyone puts their work out for the public because they want to be picked apart and criticized. And not everyone can handle it when said work is picked apart and criticized. I am one of those people. I've literally been brought to tears because of the way some here (one in particular) offers feedback. And so, yes, I avoid that kind of criticism now. I no longer post here, and I certainly do not offer my poetry here on the forums for feedback because I'm aware that I can't handle it. I will never be a great poet, and I'm okay with that. I don't write for greatness or for awards or even to be published for real. I write for me, what's in my heart and what I want to share with others. Lit gives me the chance to do this, and I'm more than happy with being just a "literotica poet".
But that doesn't mean I run away from other things in life, nor does it make it okay to tell me my work is crap. Not all of us want to be cut down into pieces for writing what's in their heart.

Just my 2 cents.

 

[WickedEve]

And not everyone can handle it when said work is picked apart and criticized. I am one of those people. I've literally been brought to tears because of the way some here (one in particular) offers feedback. And so, yes, I avoid that kind of criticism now. I no longer post here, and I certainly do not offer my poetry here on the forums for feedback because I'm aware that I can't handle it. I will never be a great poet, and I'm okay with that. I don't write for greatness or for awards or even to be published for real. I write for me, what's in my heart and what I want to share with others. Lit gives me the chance to do this, and I'm more than happy with being just a "literotica poet".
But that doesn't mean I run away from other things in life, nor does it make it okay to tell me my work is crap. Not all of us want to be cut down into pieces for writing what's in their heart.

Just my 2 cents.

I am sorry that you have been hurt, sophia. If you look at my feedback, I rarely come across as cruel. If I do, then it's not intentional. I try to be helpful--and honest. But I've learned not to be too honest with poets I don't know very well.
As far as being a lit poet, it's okay. I'm one. I'm a lit poet and a poet on other sites. It's just that Lit takes all poems, unless they are against the guidelines. So, we have great poets here and some far from great. But it makes it an interesting place.

 

[sophia jane]

I am sorry that you have been hurt, sophia. If you look at my feedback, I rarely come across as cruel. If I do, then it's not intentional. I try to be helpful--and honest. But I've learned not to be too honest with poets I don't know very well.
As far as being a lit poet, it's okay. I'm one. I'm a lit poet and a poet on other sites. It's just that Lit takes all poems, unless they are against the guidelines. So, we have great poets here and some far from great. But it makes it an interesting place.

Eve- I know you aren't cruel in your comments. The cruel that I was referring to was in saying that people who don't want to hear criticisms of their poetry run from things in life.
For the record, I've never had a comment posted to a poem that bothered me cept for one from Trolly. The only comments that have ever really hurt me were made on the board when I asked for help, and I learned a lesson from that- that I should not actively seek critiques because I can't handle the ways that some people make their comments. It's all well and good to tell someone that you don't understand a poem or to make suggestions- those are great kinds of feedback. What is difficult is people who say "this is crap" or other nasty comments. Whether there is a reason or not, saying those kinds of things is just hurtful. And I've only known one person who makes comments like that, he's done it to me and he's the one who taught me that I'd rather not post my poems here.
Anna- I know what you mean about posting a note on a poem; but as I've said I've never gotten anything on my posted work that was offensive. Of course, actual critiques of my posted works have been very rare. And considering what a baby I am about it, I suppose that's fine.

 

[WickedEve]

Eve- I know you aren't cruel in your comments. The cruel that I was referring to was in saying that people who don't want to hear criticisms of their poetry run from things in life.
For the record, I've never had a comment posted to a poem that bothered me cept for one from Trolly. The only comments that have ever really hurt me were made on the board when I asked for help, and I learned a lesson from that- that I should not actively seek critiques because I can't handle the ways that some people make their comments. It's all well and good to tell someone that you don't understand a poem or to make suggestions- those are great kinds of feedback. What is difficult is people who say "this is crap" or other nasty comments. Whether there is a reason or not, saying those kinds of things is just hurtful. And I've only known one person who makes comments like that, he's done it to me and he's the one who taught me that I'd rather not post my poems here.
Anna- I know what you mean about posting a note on a poem; but as I've said I've never gotten anything on my posted work that was offensive. Of course, actual critiques of my posted works have been very rare. And considering what a baby I am about it, I suppose that's fine.

Well, I did say probably run from other things. What I mean is that maybe some people are sensitive and easily upset. Sometimes, I'm that way, and a lot of people around here know that.

 

[Angeline]

I hate cruelty. I hate it when it's blatant, but I think I hate it even more when it's sneaky and underhanded. However, I don't think Senna Jawa goes out of his way to be cruel to anyone--which may shock some people--but maybe I'm used to him. I'd rather have someone come out and say directly that something I wrote is bad or dishonest or even pathetic than falsely praise me because they think it's what I want to hear or sugar coat the truth--or attack me in an underhanded way.

I do agree with Liar that there are polite ways to say a poem isn't working, but it's also true that some people don't get it unless you're absolutely straightforward. Like Eve, I try to say something nice, balance what I say because I agree that most people here aren't looking to write the perfect poem: they're just writing poems. Period. That's just a reality of this site. Senna doesn't seem to accept that. I suspect that's because he's being true to himself when he comments on poems and because he's trying to be instructive about the writing, not the people.

If I think a poem has potential but is flawed and that the poet might be embarrassed by my saying so publically, I pm or email my comments. I think Senna usually doesn't do that because he wants everyone to see what he has to say, give everyone a chance to see his "instruction."

I'm not saying that his opinions are necessarily right or good, and I'm certainly not trying to defend him. If he cares to do so, he is quite capable of defending himself. I'm just giving my opinion about why he comments the way he does.

I also think he likes to stir it up here because that gets some people thinking about what makes a good poem.

You don't have to agree with his opinion--or anyone else's here--but when you start taking what people say personally, you're going down the wrong path and you'll never learn anything. Even the most hurtful way of critiquing can still convey useful information.

Anna is right though. If you want to share your poems, but you're worried about being attacked, either don't select comments or leave a note with your poem that you don't want critique.

If people would spend more time focusing on poems and how to make them better and less time grandstanding or worrying about being embarrassed or feeling a need to protect others who might be embarrassed, the whole forum would benefit from it. Not that I think that's gonna happen.

 

[WickedEve]

I hate cruelty. I hate it when it's blatant, but I think I hate it even more when it's sneaky and underhanded. However, I don't think Senna Jawa goes out of his way to be cruel to anyone--which may shock some people--but maybe I'm used to him.

I think poetry is his prey, not the poet.

 

[Angeline]

I think poetry is his prey, not the poet.

Yeah well like me you've been through a few rounds of this already.

 

[WickedEve]

Yeah well like me you've been through a few rounds of this already.

I feel bad for my poor, little poems. They're helpless and lost and being stalked! Run terzanelle! Run!

 

[vampiredust]

Yes, the poem is mediocre (in my opinion).

And I defend Senna’s right to say that (not his manner in doing so), as long as he says why (which he did).

Though the manner in which he said it was rather harsh, his comment is certainly more accurate, and more helpful to the poet (from a writer’s perspective) than any of the other comments on that poem.

He did not leave a “this sucks” or “crapola” comment, with no foundation or exposition.

I believe Senna has a deep knowledge base about poetry, and he obviously has strong opinions (key word – opinions), which he is willing to explain and defend.

But if one takes the pedestal of “teacher,” which Senna does often, other things are necessary if you want to be an effective one, in my opinion.

I teach for a living, have for a while, and I’m pretty sure I know how to do the job fairly well.

And I have come to recognize the traits that separate a person who can impart knowledge to other human beings, and ones who, though they may understand subject matter, will probably be ignored (to everyone’s detriment, both teacher and pupil).

Good teachers never give false praise (except when dealing with children – and it is safe to assume there are no children here, not age-wise, anyway), since that amounts to lying and teaching is all about truth.

But good teachers also know they must motivate by working within their students’ incentive systems. They understand that the content they teach must be balanced with what they teach students about themselves, and about learning and personal achievement.

Good teachers have a positive attitude toward students and work to build self-confidence. They push pupils hard to not only master content, but also to reinforce their sense of personal achievement and their confidence.

They work to keep themselves and their students from complacency by positive interaction, and only then push them past the border of their comfort zone. They strive to challenge their confidence only so they may earn a newer and even larger confidence.

And good teachers listen to their students, their words and body language, and know what behavior on their part might make their students squirm or look for the exit sign. If they don’t, they will be disregarded.

Should Senna’s comment upset Una?

As a poet, no.

As a person, that is up to her.

Should it make her run away? Only if she’s a child,

and not if she’s a real writer.

Well said, TRM. I completely agree with you

 

[bogusbrig]

Senna has every right to give a harsh criticism and whether you respect his opinion or not, he did give reasons for them. Diplomacy is not a bad habit to get into though, especially when you don't know if someone is looking for a hard nosed critique or not.

Having let Senna get under my skin over the last few days, I agree with Angeline, I don't think he is purposefully cruel. I think he just doesn't realise how he comes across to people and why he manages to offend them.

However, bad social skills are every bit as bad as bad poetry.

 

[Rybka]

Originally Posted by Liar . . .
My point with the post, seemingly misunderstood by you, was that you deliver solid feedback, but in a way that can not-at-all be considered polite, diplomatic, cuddly, whatever. And that whoever reads it should react professionally and not emotionally. That way they can learn stuff instead of getting discouraged and scared off.
. . .

I think this quote has nailed the essence of Senna Jawa commentary. - Please believe me folks, S.J. does know most forms and styles of poetry, but when it come to tact and kindness he is a confirmed minimalist.

Somebody, I believe WE, said that he attacks the poem not the poet, and I think this is also correct. However, for many beginning writers (and some others who should know better) it is hard to separate one's 'self' from one's words. - Senna Jawa is not a teacher nor 'guru' for novice writers or the thin-skinned.

For any who may wonder, Senna has never praised any of my poems either. As a matter of fact, the only time that I can remember that he liked anything I wrote was when he commented of a piece of descriptive prose in a fishing report; and then he said it was the best poetry I had so far written.

 

[eagleyez]

Senna has every right to give a harsh criticism and whether you respect his opinion or not, he did give reasons for them. Diplomacy is not a bad habit to get into though, especially when you don't know if someone is looking for a hard nosed critique or not.

Having let Senna get under my skin over the last few days, I agree with Angeline, I don't think he is purposefully cruel. I think he just doesn't realise how he comes across to people and why he manages to offend them.

However, bad social skills are every bit as bad as bad poetry.

As far as Senna goes, I agree, social ineptness, the propensity to loathe, reeks from his reverse gear.

The mirror, however strangling, applies here. Dig youself old man, as others dig a grave.

 

[Guest]

...For any who may wonder, Senna has never praised any of my poems either. As a matter of fact, the only time that I can remember that he liked anything I wrote was when he commented of a piece of descriptive prose in a fishing report; and then he said it was the best poetry I had so far written.

Ha! I was wondering if Senna had ever left praise for any poet at Literotica, but then again, I think he did for Eve. Once.


kidding kidding