This is not a diss....

[MyBareTorso]

Just came across this story review thread with @AwkwardMD and @Omenainen giving detailed feedback on author's stories. Feels like a two edged sword asking for and then receiving what reads like very detailed and well thought out criticism when you are a first time/early days author, before you're hitting your marks and have basically zero confidence that the stuff in your head is actually worth committing to the page. Better to seek out feedback or publish and be damned (the school of hard knocks)?

Ouch! I would personally never seek out this kind of extended criticism. At the risk of sounding simplistic, I write here to get myself off, and am not overly concerned about how "great" my stories are. If some people enjoy them too, that's absolutely wonderful, but I don't need my stories dissected and critiqued like university essays. I wouldn't put myself through that mental agony!

 

[AlinaX]

Ouch! I would personally never seek out this kind of extended criticism. At the risk of sounding simplistic, I write here to get myself off, and am not overly concerned about how "great" my stories are. If some people enjoy them too, that's absolutely wonderful, but I don't need my stories dissected and critiqued like university essays. I wouldn't put myself through that mental agony!

Unfortunately, one of the conditions of being an author is to request a formal review within two years of signing up.

 

[MyBareTorso]

Unfortunately, one of the conditions of being an author is to request a formal review within two years of signing up.

Really? I do not look forward to that!

 

[AlinaX]

Or was that a nightmare I had?

 

[Omenainen]

To wrap this up for my part:

@oneagainst, I don’t know which author you’re referring to, but if you’re in contact with them, please tell them not to quit on our behalf. If they want to have some kind of conversation over the review, tell them to please reach out. I’m not sure what more I could do.

For everyone who feels our reviews are not good enough for some reason or another: we’re doing the best we can, so it’s not like we will suddenly up our game just because you told us so, nor that we will close up the shop because you don’t feel like we qualify. You’re all welcome to try for yourself if you can do better. It’s real easy to sit on the sidelines and say “not like that,” like we’ve all seen from the readers comments. It’s quite something else to have a go at it yourself. As we are the only ones we are simultaneously the best and worst there is. You’re all welcome to change that situation.

 

[Omenainen]

Unfortunately, one of the conditions of being an author is to request a formal review within two years of signing up.

Oh and to @AlinaX: I’d threaten to spank you for that, but I’m not sure it would be the punishment I’d intend it to be.

 

[AlinaX]

I, for one, think you do a great job.

 

[oneagainst]

To wrap this up for my part:

@oneagainst, I don’t know which author you’re referring to, but if you’re in contact with them, please tell them not to quit on our behalf.

I was just wondering what happened to @ofbuttons tbh - timing might have just been coincidental. I didn't mean for you to feel bad...!

For everyone who feels our reviews are not good enough for some reason or another: we’re doing the best we can, so it’s not like we will suddenly up our game just because you told us so, nor that we will close up the shop because you don’t feel like we qualify. You’re all welcome to try for yourself if you can do better.

Nature abhors a vacuum and I think that is what a number of us have to suffer when writing this stuff, insofar as there's really nobody in real life to sit down with and read your stories and give you feedback without having to face them finding out what you write about. You're filling that void which is commendable. I remember your comments on my pink orchid story way back last year, and they were useful to me just starting out.

 

[Djmac1031]

We often get requests on the lines of “this is my best received story”, which makes me think the author is not so much looking to improve but is looking for praise.

Since i pretty much said exactly that in my story submission for review I suppose I should address it.

I'm under no illusion that I'm some brilliant writer. I'm well aware of my limitations when it comes to storytelling.

My "best received" story was also the one I worked my absolute hardest on, struggled with, fretted over, constantly feeling it wasn't "good enough."

The fact that it was well received tells me I at least got something right.

If your review has an honest opinion of what I didn't get right, I'm certainly open to that evaluation.

I'm not gonna cry if someone disses it.

 

[Omenainen]

Fair enough, and I wasn’t intentionally referring to you. My point is that the goal of getting a review isn’t (hopefully) to impress us, the goal is to get some meaningful input on how to write better. In that it might be more fruitful to present something one has tried to do but failed in some way, especially if it’s hard to figure out what went wrong. I’m similarly puzzled by requests like “here’s a story I wrote five years ago but I’ve evolved a lot since then” - okay, so why not post a newer story? But it is of course up to the authors to pick what they want reviewed, for whatever reasons.

 

[AwkwardMD]

I was excited to see what @ofbuttons thought, but they stopped posting on Jan 21 and our review went up Jan 31. I think something else happened, out in that "real world" I've heard so much about

 

[Djmac1031]

Fair enough, and I wasn’t intentionally referring to you. My point is that the goal of getting a review isn’t (hopefully) to impress us, the goal is to get some meaningful input on how to write better. In that it might be more fruitful to present something one has tried to do but failed in some way, especially if it’s hard to figure out what went wrong. I’m similarly puzzled by requests like “here’s a story I wrote five years ago but I’ve evolved a lot since then” - okay, so why not post a newer story? But it is of course up to the authors to pick what they want reviewed, for whatever reasons.

I get you. And while you may not have been SPECIFICALLY referring to me earlier, it is pretty much exactly what I said when I posted my submission lol.

And for clarity: the story I submitted was originally written over a year ago, but recently I resubmitted an edited version to fix a lot of my mistakes because I feel I've grown and improved over that time and wanted that story to reflect that growth, especially since I was also about to post a sequel.

The fact that I feel I've gotten better and "improved" my own story doesn't take away my ability to be open to further improvements.

I picked the story I did because
A: it's one of my favorites
B: it's one I've worked the hardest on, both the first and second time
C: it's one I still feel could be better in several aspects.

I'm not looking to have my ass kissed

If you wind up enjoying it, great. If you have honest criticisms, great.

Either way I look forward to some fresh opinions and advice.

 

[AwkwardlySet]

Fair enough, and I wasn’t intentionally referring to you. My point is that the goal of getting a review isn’t (hopefully) to impress us, the goal is to get some meaningful input on how to write better. In that it might be more fruitful to present something one has tried to do but failed in some way, especially if it’s hard to figure out what went wrong. I’m similarly puzzled by requests like “here’s a story I wrote five years ago but I’ve evolved a lot since then” - okay, so why not post a newer story? But it is of course up to the authors to pick what they want reviewed, for whatever reasons.

While I think it is okay to discuss the nuances of reviewing and whether it can objectively be done in a place where types of stories vary so much, I do feel that this thread has gone slightly off course. There are some hints of criticism towards the reviewers that are completely unjustified. You have a thread where you offer extensive and detailed feedback. No matter what kind of personal bias can nuance that feedback, you are basically offering your time, knowledge and expertise for free to everyone who asks for it.
As I see it, you are honest and direct about your approach, so authors should first take a look in the mirror and ask themselves if they are ready to hear some honest feedback, or are they just looking for a pat on their backs. Those who can't handle the feedback shouldn't have asked for it. You have no obligation, nor I'd say any desire to nurture someone's ego, so as long as you are presenting your feedback in a polite and constructive way, you are doing this community a favor and you should be proud about it. If this author the OP has mentioned, really did stop writing because he/she had received some honest criticism from you, then maybe it is for the best.
Malicious comments and feedback aimed towards hurting an author should be judged and discarded with disdain, but the work you are doing should be met with universal praise, regardless of some justified concerns about the objectivity of it all.

 

[gunhilltrain]

Speaking for myself, doing feedback comes from two things.

One, I was almost a teacher. That was the career I wanted for myself. I have a bachelors in History and about 75% of a Master's degree in secondary education. I had a history teacher myself who was very influential for me when I was in High School (very Dead Poet's Society), and I wanted to be that for other people. In the years that I was in college, though, the American education system changed a lot. What I wanted to do and be wasn't really feasible.

I donate blood. I drive a pickup truck, and every year I end up pulling someone who slid off the road in the snow out of a snow bank. At least one a year. I used to do a lot of beta reading for other Lit authors, and a lot of editing (I don't do this anymore because of time constraints).

I like helping people, and I genuinely believe that the feedback I give can be helpful. I wouldn't do it if I didn't believe in it.

Two, when I first started writing, I couldn't get help from any of the authors whose work I was reading. Nobody would read what I'd written and tell me it was crap (and it was). What I got when I did get people to read it was "That was hot" or "When will you submit more?" This was not helpful.

I have tried, since then, to contribute. The pay is crap, but it's not a thankless job. The overwhelming majority of authors who have asked for feedback seem grateful. I think that my experience, when I was starting out and looking for help, is not uncommon. I don't know how common it is, but some people are looking for a little help. I think that a lot of writers starting out can feel that something is off, but lack the vocabulary to wrap their head around it. I know that was the case for me.

Requests in our thread have slowed for a while, and I think this is fantastic. There's an inverse relationship between the requests we get and the number of other threads in the Feedback forum that go unanswered. When nobody is responding to requests, they ask us, but since others are contributing we aren't needed.

I love that. I love the variety of opinions. I love the peer engagement. I give it forty three thumbs up.

I didn't mean to imply that you shouldn't do it if you wish. I once asked for an opinion myself, probably two years ago at least. I only offer assistance once in a while on AH, and then usually in very general terms. I've admitted that I've only read a very tiny fraction of the material on Lit. Usually if I'm going to read something, it will be from some other source, usually a printed book. Sorry, guys (fellow authors), I know I'm perhaps a hypocrite, because I hope people will read my stuff!

 

[Djmac1031]

I've admitted that I've only read a very tiny fraction of the material on Lit. Usually if I'm going to read something, it will be some other source, usually a printed book. Sorry, guys (fellow authors), I know I'm perhaps a hypocrite, because I hope people will read my stuff!

I don't feel it's hypocritical at all.

There's far too much material here to possibly keep up with.

And then there's the stories that just aren't of our particular interests. They might be fantastic, well written etc. But if we're not into that particular kink or genre we're just not gonna get around to reading it.

We all WANT more readers, absolutely.

But I think most of us are pretty realistic when it comes to understanding not everyone, not even other authors we engage with here regularly, are even friendly with, are ALWAYS, AUTOMATICALLY going to read every single one of our stories.

 

[gunhilltrain]

I don't feel it's hypocritical at all.

There's far too much material here to possibly keep up with.

And then there's the stories that just aren't of our particular interests. They might be fantastic, well written etc. But if we're not into that particular kink or genre we're just not gonna get around to reading it.

We all WANT more readers, absolutely.

But I think most of us are pretty realistic when it comes to understanding not everyone, not even other authors we engage with here regularly, are even friendly with, are ALWAYS, AUTOMATICALLY going to read every single one of our stories.

There is a certain contradiction built into online literature sites, perhaps all of the Internet. It's just so easy to publish online (blogs, videos, whatever), that the amount of material is huge, far beyond what is in the local library, probably well beyond the entire library system (which in New York only includes three boroughs; Brooklyn and Queens have their own system).

 

[gunhilltrain]

This is ironic, perhaps, but probably later today I'm going to gripe if not a single person votes on my latest submission.

 

[Djmac1031]

In my opinion, the only reason for seeking public reviews would be to increase clicks to one's work which is legitimate.

I think both things can be true, or at least are in my case.

I posted a link to a story for their review after stumbling on this post because I figured, hey, why not?

I'm always open for honest criticism of my work.

That said, I won't lie and say I didn't also consider the fact that by posting a public link and asking publicly for it to be read that I wasn't hopeful it may draw in a new audience.

Because of course we all want more readers.

 

[gunhilltrain]

Allow me to respectfully disagree with you. If someone openly refuses to give a private review and insists only on a public one, their motives may be suspect. Additionally, reviewing content that is outside of one's expertise or interest can be problematic. For instance, I wouldn't dare reviewing BDSM or NC stories because they are not within my realm of knowledge.

It's highly recommended to have another set of eyes to review your work before publishing, as there comes a stage where you have become so absorbed in the text that you are unable to catch transparent and embarrassing mistakes.

Personally, I've reached out many times to writers whose writing I admire and have always received willing assistance. I am grateful for the helpful and friendly individuals I've met on Lit and in this forum.

I think it's important to approach writers who share a similar writing style and aesthetic taste, as their feedback will be more relevant and useful. I also suggest conducting reviews before publishing to implement the suggestions provided.

In my opinion, the only reason for seeking public reviews would be to increase clicks to one's work which is legitimate.

Well, you sort of have a point - maybe. For years there have been professional book and movie reviewers. The writers or filmmakers knew that their work would be examined; that was how the world worked (and still does). Somebody like Vincent Canby didn't have to have military experience to review a war movie or knowledge of the criminal justice system to review a cop movie. I'm not sure that sharing aesthetic tastes had much to do with it either.

It's a little different on Lit, of course, where writers are actually presenting their work to these two people for review. If that is what they wish, then fine. If they wish to do it privately with somebody they know, that's fine too. As for seeking clicks, we all do that.

 

[AwkwardlySet]

Allow me to respectfully disagree with you. If someone openly refuses to give a private review and insists only on a public one, their motives may be suspect. Additionally, reviewing content that is outside of one's expertise or interest can be problematic. For instance, I wouldn't dare reviewing BDSM or NC stories because they are not within my realm of knowledge.

It's highly recommended to have another set of eyes to review your work before publishing, as there comes a stage where you have become so absorbed in the text that you are unable to catch transparent and embarrassing mistakes.

Personally, I've reached out many times to writers whose writing I admire and have always received willing assistance. I am grateful for the helpful and friendly individuals I've met on Lit and in this forum.

I think it's important to approach writers who share a similar writing style and aesthetic taste, as their feedback will be more relevant and useful. I also suggest conducting reviews before publishing to implement the suggestions provided.

In my opinion, the only reason for seeking public reviews would be to increase clicks to one's work which is legitimate.

There is some cynicism in your post, as you aren't even considering the simple desire to help as reviewers' motivation. The concerns about objectivity are justified, as are concerns about expertise in every type of story, but once again, authors are adults who can make a choice form themselves in this case. They can see the reviewers' stories, they can see what categories reviewers write in, they can judge how good those stories are. No one is being forced into getting a review of their work. Is part of reviewers' motivation a publicity of a sort? Possibly, but I do not dare to speculate. Maybe they simply want other people to be able to see the reviews and also learn from them? Maybe that is their "pay" in a way - for their work, their feedback that takes time and effort, to be available for everyone to read? Or maybe they are doing it for selfish reasons, to increase their own views and to present themselves in a superior way? I don't have a clue really, but I don't want to be the kind of person who assumes such ulterior motives in other people without truly knowing them. Also, there are far easier ways to attract attention to one's stories than what they are doing. We should all assume they have honest motives and good intentions, unless they have given us cause to think otherwise.

 

[Omenainen]

Allow me to respectfully disagree with you. If someone openly refuses to give a private review and insists only on a public one, their motives may be suspect.

I don’t really get what’s implied here.

Additionally, reviewing content that is outside of one's expertise or interest can be problematic. For instance, I wouldn't dare reviewing BDSM or NC stories because they are not within my realm of knowledge.

It's highly recommended to have another set of eyes to review your work before publishing, as there comes a stage where you have become so absorbed in the text that you are unable to catch transparent and embarrassing mistakes.

Personally, I've reached out many times to writers whose writing I admire and have always received willing assistance. I am grateful for the helpful and friendly individuals I've met on Lit and in this forum.

I think it's important to approach writers who share a similar writing style and aesthetic taste, as their feedback will be more relevant and useful. I also suggest conducting reviews before publishing to implement the suggestions provided.

In my opinion, the only reason for seeking public reviews would be to increase clicks to one's work which is legitimate.

Yes, beta readers are a valuable thing, and having writerly friends with whom to share help is hopefully helpful for both parties. That is a different function from reviewing finished works.

 

[Euphony]

I think both things can be true, or at least are in my case.

I posted a link to a story for their review after stumbling on this post because I figured, hey, why not?

I'm always open for honest criticism of my work.

That said, I won't lie and say I didn't also consider the fact that by posting a public link and asking publicly for it to be read that I wasn't hopeful it may draw in a new audience.

Because of course we all want more readers.

More efficient in the helping too.

Outside of the writer/reviewer lenses, there's the outside reader lens.

There are plenty of examples of story woes I was guilty of which lead me to research further where I stumbled on other concepts I've worked on as well. (helped me find Bickham's Scene and Structure which was uncomfortably useful.)

An author submitting to public display of "areas of possible improvement" allows motivated others to make improvement in their own works without burdening the reviewer in covering already tread ground.

 

[Omenainen]

For my part, I have been beta reading for people privately. I still offer to do that for stories intended for my event, so in a way that door is not even completely closed. The thing is, it takes almost as much time as writing a public review, and with a public one there’s the illusion of possibly greater reach than just one person. My time is limited, and I’d rather use it on my own stories than helping some random people write theirs. It’s really no more complicated than that.

And why do I do it at all? To make the world better by helping create better smut! Especially regarding my event.

 

[djrip]

I was just wondering what happened to @ofbuttons tbh - timing might have just been coincidental. I didn't mean for you to feel bad...!

Exactly who I thought you might mean and I've been wondering about them too. Especially since I posted something about the reviewed work around then as well, and then worried that I might have had something to do with it when everything went silent... I want the rest of that story darn it!

 

[gunhilltrain]

Reading a critique of someone else's work will help me improve my own unique one-off creation... yep, makes sense.

Potentially, it could help. I mean, most of what I write probably isn't that unique. I admitted that I just don't get around to reading to most of those critiques. I still haven't mopped that kitchen floor as I said I would a couple of days ago.