This is not a diss....

[oneagainst]

Just came across this story review thread with @AwkwardMD and @Omenainen giving detailed feedback on author's stories. Feels like a two edged sword asking for and then receiving what reads like very detailed and well thought out criticism when you are a first time/early days author, before you're hitting your marks and have basically zero confidence that the stuff in your head is actually worth committing to the page. Better to seek out feedback or publish and be damned (the school of hard knocks)?

 

[gunhilltrain]

Just came across this story review thread with @AwkwardMD and @Omenainen giving detailed feedback on author's stories. Feels like a two edged sword asking for and then receiving what reads like very detailed and well thought out criticism when you are a first time/early days author, before you're hitting your marks and have basically zero confidence that the stuff in your head is actually worth committing to the page. Better to seek out feedback or publish and be damned (the school of hard knocks)?

I tried them once when I was a bit more experienced - a year? I don't remember. They are definitely pretty tough reviewers.

 

[AwkwardlySet]

It is all a matter of individual preference. Some people don't mind harsh criticism, some would fall apart and stop writing. Most would learn something from it, but still feel unnerved by their work being analyzed and scrutinized in detail.

Personally, I like readers' feedback a lot, and I don't mind getting even harsh criticism from them. You can learn something from almost every kind of feedback. Yet I would never really put myself into a situation to be analyzed by my peers like that. To be able to take the criticism with a completely open mind and sincerity, the reviewer would need to be someone I respect a lot; someone I consider vastly superior as a writer.

 

[TheRedChamber]

I think Awkward and Omenainen do a great job with their review thread. I tend to give feedback myself on individual request threads and do it in a similar style (though A&O are more experienced than me and often more insightful)

I think there's a difference between 'comment' feedback where it's generally polite to be most positive and raise any issues only very gently and the 'author's feedback' section where you are asking for someone else to look at it with the eye of a fellow author.

This sort of criticism shouldn't be unduly negative or personal, but often takes the form of 'I don't feel you quite achieved this aspect. Maybe if you had done this or this it might have had a better effect' Generally, if you do this, people will understand that, rather than tearing them down, you are encouraging them to reach a higher standard and they are usually good with that (although I've also seen feedback threads turn nasty). Mostly, authors love the idea that people have looked at their work in detail and really considered it.

 

[Lifestyle66]

Just came across this story review thread with @AwkwardMD and @Omenainen giving detailed feedback on author's stories. Feels like a two edged sword asking for and then receiving what reads like very detailed and well thought out criticism when you are a first time/early days author, before you're hitting your marks and have basically zero confidence that the stuff in your head is actually worth committing to the page. Better to seek out feedback or publish and be damned (the school of hard knocks)?

I asked them to review one of my stories. They'll give you some thoughtworthy critiques of your writing. But they'll all inject their own personal biases into their observations, which I think should be expected from anyone else, too.

That which appeals to YOU in a story is not necessarily what they enjoy, and they'll let you know. So, if you read some of their critiques and look at their own published stories, you'll get a good idea of how best to take their criticism.

 

[Euphony]

You've wisely self-identified where you may be at right now versus the service they are offering.

I adore that thread b/c it offers serious, often technical, feedback which is hard to come by around here.

The real trick to submission is becoming intimately familiar with their methodology and what they are looking for. (story craft, beats, stakes, female autonomy, etc. etc. (see thread. They are very deliberate in trying to describe the lenses through which they look.)

The hardest part is taking a 10,000 foot view of your own work and deciding if you want the help improving the areas they focus on or if it would be too detrimental to your motivation (which is fair. Risk/reward assessment is always a huge part of writing and motivation is hard to keep on steady footing with all of life's craziness.)

It helps greatly to read their own works too to see what they are going for themselves and contrast where your own style may simply be different. (I know I am a softy whereas they focus on compelling, not necessarily "likeable," characters and they strive to keep things apace like a locomotive which is how most published fiction is taught and formatted by default. It's about the reader feeling an intended emotion(s), not always pleasant.)

If you can be open minded and have good self-assessment skills of where stylistically you diverge versus where your technicals need some brushing up on, you can gain a ton from the scrutiny.

Some can't and even in the thread there are examples of pushback driven not by misunderstanding but "artistic choice" as subterfuge for what is ego troubles.

As with many things, you tend to get out of it what you put into it.

If it won't knock you off-kilter and you are at least open minded to really considering where you could improve, it's a worthwhile endeavor.

If not or not yet, it's still a great learning resource and without the downsides of feeling under the crosshairs yourself.

I am regularly researching concepts I hadn't considered thanks to the exchanges in that thread. It really is an incredible resource for those who take the time to understand what it is/isn't, are genuinely open minded, and are interested in improving their craft.

 

[MelissaBaby]

Not a fan.

 

[KeithD]

Subjective personal opinion sometimes goes beyond what a trained editor would provide.

 

[gunhilltrain]

I asked them to review one of my stories. They'll give you some thoughtworthy critiques of your writing. But they'll all inject their own personal biases into their observations, which I think should be expected from anyone else, too.

That which appeals to YOU in a story is not necessarily what they enjoy, and they'll let you know. So, if you read some of their critiques and look at their own published stories, you'll get a good idea of how best to take their criticism.

They are sort of self-appointed for the job? Or you could call them volunteers! Have they ever said why they are doing this, or what qualifies them over the other tens of thousands of active members here? (Just guessing at the number; that may be a low-ball guess.)

I guess I wish them well, because I certainly couldn't do it.

 

[AwkwardMD]

Have they ever said why they are doing this, or what qualifies them over the other tens of thousands of active members here? (Just guessing at the number; that may be a low-ball guess.)

I guess I wish them well, because I certainly couldn't do it.

Speaking for myself, doing feedback comes from two things.

One, I was almost a teacher. That was the career I wanted for myself. I have a bachelors in History and about 75% of a Master's degree in secondary education. I had a history teacher myself who was very influential for me when I was in High School (very Dead Poet's Society), and I wanted to be that for other people. In the years that I was in college, though, the American education system changed a lot. What I wanted to do and be wasn't really feasible.

I donate blood. I drive a pickup truck, and every year I end up pulling someone who slid off the road in the snow out of a snow bank. At least one a year. I used to do a lot of beta reading for other Lit authors, and a lot of editing (I don't do this anymore because of time constraints).

I like helping people, and I genuinely believe that the feedback I give can be helpful. I wouldn't do it if I didn't believe in it.

Two, when I first started writing, I couldn't get help from any of the authors whose work I was reading. Nobody would read what I'd written and tell me it was crap (and it was). What I got when I did get people to read it was "That was hot" or "When will you submit more?" This was not helpful.

I have tried, since then, to contribute. The pay is crap, but it's not a thankless job. The overwhelming majority of authors who have asked for feedback seem grateful. I think that my experience, when I was starting out and looking for help, is not uncommon. I don't know how common it is, but some people are looking for a little help. I think that a lot of writers starting out can feel that something is off, but lack the vocabulary to wrap their head around it. I know that was the case for me.

Requests in our thread have slowed for a while, and I think this is fantastic. There's an inverse relationship between the requests we get and the number of other threads in the Feedback forum that go unanswered. When nobody is responding to requests, they ask us, but since others are contributing we aren't needed.

I love that. I love the variety of opinions. I love the peer engagement. I give it forty three thumbs up.

 

[Djmac1031]

I suppose part of me is curious to openly submit myself to an honest critique.

I mean, I'm already well aware of my flaws and limitations, but I'd be interested in some new thoughts.

So how's it work? Just pick a story, post a link in the thread and wait til they get around to it?

 

[AwkwardMD]

I suppose part of me is curious to openly submit myself to an honest critique.

I mean, I suppose I'm already well aware of my flaws and limitations, but I'd be interested in some new thoughts I suppose.

So how's it work? Just pick a story, post a link in the thread and wait til they get around to it?

Yup. Ideally, we are trying to help writers improve and expand their toolbox, so pick something that is recent and reflective of where you are now.

 

[Djmac1031]

Yup. Ideally, we are trying to help writers improve and expand their toolbox, so pick something that is recent and reflective of where you are now.

Thanks. I'm debating on whether to have you review what i consider my best story or wait a few days til my newest one publishes.

None of my stories are very long so that won't be a problem lol

 

[Omenainen]

Now this was an interesting thread to wake up to!

Just came across this story review thread with @AwkwardMD and @Omenainen giving detailed feedback on author's stories. Feels like a two edged sword asking for and then receiving what reads like very detailed and well thought out criticism when you are a first time/early days author, before you're hitting your marks and have basically zero confidence that the stuff in your head is actually worth committing to the page. Better to seek out feedback or publish and be damned (the school of hard knocks)?

On our behalf I’d like to say that we can and will take into consideration if someone is asking a review on their first story or their 50th. Also, if asked to be gentle, we will try our damnest to comply.

I also don’t quite agree on “see what they write so you’ll see what they’re going for”. Sure, if you see what we write and absolutely hate it, then why would you want our opinion on anything? But I believe that we can appreciate a well-written story even if it’s very different from our personal tastes.

Personally, I was reading the thread before we joined our forces on contributing, and I loved it. I have beta read for some people over the years, and all of them have thought my input was valuable, so I thought doing it publicly in the form of reviews might be a way to spread the good. I also like to help people, and I think that thread helps people. So it’s my way of giving back to this community now that I’m not beta reading privately anymore.

And as to “who are we to do this” that often arises, I’d say we’re the only ones to do this so it’s not like we’re snatching business from more qualified reviewers. Every once in a while people come up with their own review threads, but I haven’t seen anyone following through yet. Yeah, I’m not claiming I’m a professional, but then again nobody is paying me so why should I be?

Requests in our thread have slowed for a while, and I think this is fantastic. There's an inverse relationship between the requests we get and the number of other threads in the Feedback forum that go unanswered. When nobody is responding to requests, they ask us, but since others are contributing we aren't needed.

I wholeheartedly agree. I really appreciate those who read the Story Feedback forum and leave the nice, considerate “comment type” feedbacks. Please keep it up, everybody.

 

[Omenainen]

No, you can't.

Yeah yeah blah blah. I’m not saying I would get off on a story I don’t like, but our reviews are not based on if we get off on something. It’s very possible to consider if the story flows well and characters are fully fledged without being into the kink the story is about.

 

[Omenainen]

You just proved my point.

Okay, so let’s agree that you don’t ask for a review. Sounds like a win-win.

 

[ElectricBlue]

And as to “who are we to do this” that often arises, I’d say we’re the only ones to do this so it’s not like we’re snatching business from more qualified reviewers. Every once in a while people come up with their own review threads, but I haven’t seen anyone following through yet. Yeah, I’m not claiming I’m a professional, but then again nobody is paying me so why should I be?

Yes, you're the only folk offering a detailed review service at the moment. AwkwardMD flew solo for several years, and before then another solid writer ran a similar thread (whose name escapes me right now, but I should know, because he reviewed an early story of mine, Rope and Veil).

I drop by the Feedback Forum from time to time, to offer comments on stories when people have asked for feedback, but nowhere close to the depth you and AMD go. Several other AH regulars also chime in, on occasion.

 

[ElectricBlue]

How can you determine if characters are fully fleshed out if you lack an understanding of their worldview and empathy for their thoughts and emotions?

Oh, I will ask for feedback just not from you.

If it's good writing, the story should be able to stand and persuade on its own, without kink qualifications from a reader.

You don't need to have made movies to be Roger Ebert.

 

[oneagainst]

Yup. Ideally, we are trying to help writers improve and expand their toolbox, so pick something that is recent and reflective of where you are now.

I only actually raised it because an author I've been following disappeared mid-story around the time that the review of their latest chapter was posted on your thread. I get that it can be a confronting process, and there's a delicate balance between showing how to go better vs the author losing confidence.

 

[AlinaX]

We authors have fragile egos. We yearn to be read. To publish at all is a huge step, and when no one comments... how utterly cruel the silence is. So we dare to actually ask for reviews, and our flaws are laid bare. We asked for it, but...

 

[Omenainen]

I only actually raised it because an author I've been following disappeared mid-story around the time that the review of their latest chapter was posted on your thread. I get that it can be a confronting process, and there's a delicate balance between showing how to go better vs the author losing confidence.

I am truly sorry if we’ve discouraged someone enough to stop writing. That definitely isn’t our intent. I get that we can be more critical than the average “this was hot, when are you posting more”, but that’s also why we have our reviews on our thread and don’t go around flinging it on unsuspecting advice askers. I do assume that anyone asking us has read at least some reviews (and the stories reviewed) on the thread, so they know roughly what to expect. So it’s a case of “if you don’t want to know, don’t ask.”

 

[Omenainen]

We authors have fragile egos. We yearn to be read. To publish at all is a huge step, and when no one comments... how utterly cruel the silence is. So we dare to actually ask for reviews, and our flaws are laid bare. We asked for it, but...

There definitely exists a need for a more pampering review thread. I’m culturally incapable of providing it, so I encourage anyone so inclined to take it up.

 

[Omenainen]

It’s worth for anyone seeking feedback to consider their motives for doing so. I personally never asked for an AwkwardMD review despite thoroughly enjoying reading them, because I had discovered from having others beta read my stories that I’m not really prepared to change anything no matter what the feedback is. I’m a pantser, so there is no outline that could be commented on. And my process seems to be such that when I’m done I’m done, and whatever comments I get, no matter how justified, are not enough to make me want to change anything. So I figured, why would I waste her time on giving advice I’m not going to follow?

I think the most beneficial attitude for asking a review is being open to actually consider the feedback given, and the ability to try out the advice. If someone is not willing to change, like me, or is just looking for validation and wants to only hear “oh this was so great”, then it’s worth considering again. We often get requests on the lines of “this is my best received story”, which makes me think the author is not so much looking to improve but is looking for praise. It’s not wrong to ask for a review just to have someone really read your story, but it might not be the most productive approach. That being said, because the reviews are public, it might provide a growing prompt for some other author, so I think it’s still worth it.

 

[AlinaX]

Which is also why it's dangerous to ask an author to be an editor.

 

[Omenainen]

Criticism should always be given with empathy and constructive intent, or not at all. It's best to avoid reviewers who are self-centered and make their reviews more about themselves than the story or the author.

I agree. So if anyone feels we’re that way, please don’t ask for our reviews. And anyone feeling they’re better able to provide objective reviews, please do.

Which is also why it's dangerous to ask an author to be an editor.

Good thing I’m not an editor