This is fucking sick

[renard_ruse]

Graham and McCain need to be arrested and put on trial. Going to a foreign country and encouraging aggressive war and doing so as self-appointed representatives of the US government, with no authority to do so has to be illegal in some way...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sSmGQp6y9us

 

[renard_ruse]

This isn't the worse of it, I can't find the video where he tells them to attack "Russians" (by which he means the Donbas Republic which is a local militia not Russian). It seems to have disappeared from Youtube in the past couple of hours. I will keep digging to find the full video.

The dynamic duo's trip was in early January of this year but got almost no US media coverage.

 

[renard_ruse]

I can't believe it, the full video has disappeared from Youtube.

Graham actually tells the Ukrainian forces to attack the "Russians" (ie the Donbas local government). The linked video edits that part out and shifts to McLame's rambling.

I think McLame is actually senile and doesn't even realize that the Soviet Union is gone and Russia is not the Soviet Union. He seems to simply be out of touch with reality.

Graham on the other hand, seems truly dangerous, evil, and repulsive.

 

[juttjaw]

Wow! I can't believe all that slipped beyond all Americans knowledge!!!

It's seriously a major deal!!!!!!!!!!!

O!!!! M!!!!!! G!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

What an outrage!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Ishmael]

In 1949 the US Senate passed a 'sense of the senate' resolution that stated we had no interest in Asia west of the 135th meridian. This was, in their minds anyway, to achieve three goals;

1. To placate the Soviet Union.

2. To make sure that Japan was ours to keep under our boot.

3. To disconnect us from the Nationalist Chinese that we were funding in their war with Mao.

The results was the Korean war. The Soviets noticed quite immediately that Korea was NOT east of the 135th meridian. Mistakenly they thought that our government worked like theirs and that the senate was more or less equivalent to their politburo. So they encouraged, and backed, the North Korean invasion into the south.

There is a reason that the Executive branch is the sole province of foreign policy. the nation, any nation, must speak with one voice when dealing with foreign powers. Mixed messages lead to those that mean us no good will to attempt to drive wedges and those miscalculations more often than not lead to disastrous results. Interference by legislators that have NO elective mandate in foreign policy is an invitation to foreign powers to engage in mischief.

And that's the reason for the law and why McCain and Graham should be censured.

Ishmael

Edited to change 1940 to 1949.

 

[sigh]

In 1949 the US Senate passed a 'sense of the senate' resolution that stated we had no interest in Asia west of the 135th meridian. This was, in their minds anyway, to achieve three goals;

1. To placate the Soviet Union.

2. To make sure that Japan was ours to keep under our boot.

3. To disconnect us from the Nationalist Chinese that we were funding in their war with Mao.

The results was the Korean war. The Soviets noticed quite immediately that Korea was NOT east of the 135th meridian. Mistakenly they thought that our government worked like theirs and that the senate was more or less equivalent to their politburo. So they encouraged, and backed, the North Korean invasion into the south.

There is a reason that the Executive branch is the sole province of foreign policy. the nation, any nation, must speak with one voice when dealing with foreign powers. Mixed messages lead to those that mean us no good will to attempt to drive wedges and those miscalculations more often than not lead to disastrous results. Interference by legislators that have NO elective mandate in foreign policy is an invitation to foreign powers to engage in mischief.

And that's the reason for the law and why McCain and Graham should be censured.

Ishmael

Edited to change 1940 to 1949.

Yes, they should be censured. As should the 47 Republican Senators who signed the letter to Iran in 2015, with obvious intent to directly interfere with then President Obama's ongoing nuclear negotiation with that country. You are right, Ish, and you as well, Renard. Negotiating treaties belongs to the executive, no matter how personally distasteful that may be. The Senate needs to wait its turn.

 

[Colonel Hogan]

Perhaps you guys would like a second opinion. Or, just as likely, perhaps not.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/volokh-conspiracy/wp/2015/03/11/did-speaker-boehner-and-the-republican-senators-violate-the-logan-act/?utm_term=.6944e1de5015

So what does the Logan Act mean today, and is it even constitutional, given modern understandings of the First Amendment? A few reactions:

a. First, Prof. Steve Vladeck (American Univ.) has a post on the subject, which strikes me as likely correct on the law. Some excerpts:

[1.] [Under the Act,] the citizen must act “without authority of the United States.” Although most assume that means without authority of the Executive Branch, the Logan Act itself does not specify what this term means, and the State Department told Congress in 1975 that “Nothing in section 953 … would appear to restrict members of the Congress from engaging in discussions with foreign officials in pursuance of their legislative duties under the Constitution.” … Combined with the rule of lenity and the constitutional concerns identified below, it seems likely that … courts would interpret this provision to not apply to such official communications from Congress.

[2.] It seems quite likely, as one district court suggested in passing in 1964, that the terms of the statute are both unconstitutionally vague and in any event unlikely to survive the far stricter standards contemporary courts place on such content-based restrictions on speech….

[3.] [T]he Logan Act has never been successfully used (indeed, the last indictment under the Act was in … 1803). Although most assume this is just a practical obstacle to a contemporary prosecution, it’s worth reminding folks about “desuetude” — the legal doctrine pursuant to which statutes (especially criminal ones) may lapse if they are never enforced (interested readers should check out a fantastic 2006 student note on the subject in the Harvard Law Review). If ever there was a case in which desuetude could be a successful defense to a federal criminal prosecution, I have to think that this would be it.

As usual, even a cursory bit of research would demonstrate that no Congressman communicating his public opposition to executive foreign policy, even directly to a foreign government, is in violation of the law.

Take a chill pill.

 

[KingOrfeo]

Graham and McCain need to be arrested and put on trial. Going to a foreign country and encouraging aggressive war . . .

How is Ukraine doing that? The aggression is all on the Russian side.

 

[hashtag46]

I find it hard to believe that they acted without approval from Washington.

The best proof for that: Trump hasn't made any public statement criticizing or even distancing himself from their comments.

One could say that he didn't comment because he didn't want to give the impression that his govt. is split or falling apart. But what those politicians did was very serious and any leader who held the reverse position would have detached himself from their position.

On the other hand, it's hard for one to distance themselves from such a comment without appearing to support Russia's imperialistic policies.


Odd event.

 

[sigh]

Perhaps you guys would like a second opinion. Or, just as likely, perhaps not.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/volokh-conspiracy/wp/2015/03/11/did-speaker-boehner-and-the-republican-senators-violate-the-logan-act/?utm_term=.6944e1de5015



As usual, even a cursory bit of research would demonstrate that no Congressman communicating his public opposition to executive foreign policy, even directly to a foreign government, is in violation of the law.

Take a chill pill.

No need for a pill. Ish and I only called for censure, which is still appropriate but will never happen (majority parties don't go after their own too often). This final act by McCain and Graham was just one more Republican obstruction to throw into the face of the Obama administration, and even if it can't be prosecuted under the Logan Act (yesterday I read a similar analysis to the one you shared, so you're likely right) it's still outside the intent of the founders.

My statement still stands: Negotiating treaties belongs to the executive, no matter how personally distasteful that may be. The Senate needs to wait its turn.

Even a cursory reading of Article II, Section 2 should have made this obvious.

Chill with your own pill.

 

[someoneyouknow]

What you're saying, poorly, is the U.S. shouldn't send aid to a friendly nation which is being attacked by its monstrously larger neighbor who has already stolen part of that country and who supports terrorist operations in said country.

Instead, we should stand by and do nothing while a country, which was moving toward democratic reforms and away from and out from under the boot heel of a dictatorial regime, is reduced to rubble by the jealous tantrum of a conniving oligarch who is doing everything in his power to distract the people of his country from the declining quality of life and money which is quickly running short to the point people go weeks or months without pay.

That under no circumstances should we let the country defend itself, using its own troops, but instead sit by and do nothing while evil succeeds.

Brilliant. How much are they paying you in St. Petersburg to post such crap?

 

[irksomesauce]

America is up to its Machiavellian neck in the devious political intrigue which the Ukraine currently finds itself submerged in - our hands are disgustingly filthy with it all.

We need to finally do the only honorable thing and fully withdraw ENTIRELY from their situation so they, Russia, and Europe can decide their shared landmass future for themselves. Europe, eg, is far wealthier and militarily mightier than Russia - if they don't figure it's worth it to them to do anything about their neighbor Russia, why should it be any more of an American concern?

America FIRST.

 

[hashtag46]

Re the previous 2 posts:

As I see it, there are two almost separate issues here:

1.An emotional, values-riddled one, as to what we personally think is moral or right: what Ukraine is doing or what Russia is doing?
(Personally, I prefer to adopt a neutral stance on that because I don't have a sound understanding of history or politics)

2.A more pragmatic one, to which I suppose the OP was referring, and which has nothing to do with one's emotions or position on Ukraine:
That an official went rogue and made a very serious statement that apparently contradicts his president's line of policy.

-- If that's true (and regardless of one's personal feelings or emotions vis a vis Russia or Ukraine or Trump), that's a serious breach of duty and a serious matter, as I see it. It could have several negative repercutions (even amounting to a matter of national security.)

-- But then there is always the possibility that he was just following Trump's instructions.

 

[JudgeWapner]

https://up0.xhcdn.com/000/129/510/256_1000.gif

 

[Queertag45]

Re the previous 2 posts:

As I see it, there are two almost separate issues here:

1.An emotional, values-riddled one, as to what we personally think is moral or right: what Ukraine is doing or what Russia is doing?
(Personally, I prefer to adopt a neutral stance on that because I don't have a sound understanding of history or politics)

2.A more pragmatic one, to which I suppose the OP was referring, and which has nothing to do with one's emotions or position on Ukraine:
That an official went rogue and made a very serious statement that apparently contradicts his president's line of policy.

-- If that's true (and regardless of one's personal feelings or emotions vis a vis Russia or Ukraine or Trump), that's a serious breach of duty and a serious matter, as I see it. It could have several negative repercutions (even amounting to a matter of national security.)

-- But then there is always the possibility that he was just following Trump's instructions.

In the future, it's okay to have stupid thoughts without sharing them with everyone. Nobody would be offended if you shut the fuck up about things you know nothing about.

 

[Rightguide]

In 1949 the US Senate passed a 'sense of the senate' resolution that stated we had no interest in Asia west of the 135th meridian. This was, in their minds anyway, to achieve three goals;

1. To placate the Soviet Union.

2. To make sure that Japan was ours to keep under our boot.

3. To disconnect us from the Nationalist Chinese that we were funding in their war with Mao.

The results was the Korean war. The Soviets noticed quite immediately that Korea was NOT east of the 135th meridian. Mistakenly they thought that our government worked like theirs and that the senate was more or less equivalent to their politburo. So they encouraged, and backed, the North Korean invasion into the south.

There is a reason that the Executive branch is the sole province of foreign policy. the nation, any nation, must speak with one voice when dealing with foreign powers. Mixed messages lead to those that mean us no good will to attempt to drive wedges and those miscalculations more often than not lead to disastrous results. Interference by legislators that have NO elective mandate in foreign policy is an invitation to foreign powers to engage in mischief.

And that's the reason for the law and why McCain and Graham should be censured.

Ishmael

Edited to change 1940 to 1949.

Probably a Democrat Senate.