"They"

[robertreams]

What is the most recent standard for persons (singular) of unknown sex. Is it now considered "Standard" to use "they"?

For example, The author, though unknown, certainly imprinted their style on the passage.

In my training (i am an elderly person) this usage would have been unthinkable, but now I see this usage all the time.

 

[PennLady]

Hmm. Don't know about recent or current standard. "They" certainly wouldn't throw me off -- it's how people would probably talk about it, after all -- but you could also use "he/she".

 

[sr71plt]

Current usage is that it's OK--and often better to do than to try to do an awkward write around. It's one of the weaknesses of English that other languages handle better.

That said, it bothers me when I've realized I've done it, and I try to write around it, often with the he/she followed by she/he--which I also don't like doing.

 

[Athalia]

What is the most recent standard for persons (singular) of unknown sex. Is it now considered "Standard" to use "they"?

For example, The author, though unknown, certainly imprinted their style on the passage.

In my training (i am an elderly person) this usage would have been unthinkable, but now I see this usage all the time.

Well, that usage has been around for a while (I think Shakespeare used it). My earlier training also discouraged it, but that was before people started objecting to the inherent sexism of the tenet "The male embraces the female." I now use it regularly where it can avoid the awkward "his or her" (although I might not have done it in the example given above, where "his or her" does not seem all that awkward, and indeed tends to underline how little we know about the author). It's most useful in dialogue, such as:

"Has anybody left their umbrella on the bus?" the tour guide asked.

But the best course, as sr71plt pointed out, is often to re-write the phrase. It's a matter of ear, mostly.

 

[elfin_odalisque]

Surely the rules of singular and plural apply? 'Has anybody' is singular and 'will they come forward' is plural.

 

[sr71plt]

I don't see where that either addresses or solves the issue brought up by the OP. The problem is that the English language doesn't have a collective, gender-inclusive pronoun in the singular. You either have to try to write around it or live with something that doesn't look correct or that is correct but clunky. Originally this was handled by using "he" unless all involved were females. That don't work in today's world.

 

[Bramblethorn]

Well, that usage has been around for a while (I think Shakespeare used it).

C.S. Lewis, Shakespeare, and all the way back to Chaucer. Plus the King James Bible.

http://motivatedgrammar.wordpress.com/2009/09/10/singular-they-and-the-many-reasons-why-its-correct/

 

[sr71plt]

C.S. Lewis, Shakespeare, and all the way back to Chaucer. Plus the King James Bible.

http://motivatedgrammar.wordpress.com/2009/09/10/singular-they-and-the-many-reasons-why-its-correct/

And, as we all know, if the King James Bible was good enough for Jesus, it's good enough for us. (Sorry, that's a liberal church joke.)

 

[robertreams]

Let us dearly hope we don't all write as we speak.

 

[robertreams]

As usual, I got the answer I was looking for from you sr71plt, though almost all the examples were actually or syntacticly collective. i have been coming across 'they' used to refer to the single individuals of unknown gender or even known gender. Anyway thanks for the great reference I have tagged it for future referrnce.

 

[robertreams]

Surely the rules of singular and plural apply? 'Has anybody' is singular and 'will they come forward' is plural.

Do they? That is the Question! Correct English, I was taught would be:"has anyone left his umbrella on the bus?" singula rand singular

How-ev-er. modern usage is: "Has anyone left their umbrella on the bus" singular and generic plural.

It still makes me uncomfortable to do it, so, like Sr71plt I try like hell to avoid the necessity.

 

[Bramblethorn]

Do they? That is the Question! Correct English, I was taught would be:"has anyone left his umbrella on the bus?" singula rand singular

How-ev-er. modern usage is: "Has anyone left their umbrella on the bus" singular and generic plural.

It still makes me uncomfortable to do it, so, like Sr71plt I try like hell to avoid the necessity.

But how is singular/plural "they" any worse than "you"?

"To the person/s who stole Cheryl's birthday cake from the office fridge: I hope you're proud of what you've done."

vs

"If the person/s who stole Cheryl's birthday cake try that again, they will get a nasty surprise."

Meanwhile, attempts to create a distinctive second-person plural pronoun e.g. "youse" or "y'all" get met with derision.

 

[sr71plt]

"You" is accepted as both singular and plural. "They" isn't.

That's just the way that they is.

 

[Bramblethorn]

"You" is accepted as both singular and plural. "They" isn't.

That's just the way that they is.

I see what you did there...

 

[LustKnight]

"They" is the traditional gender-neutral pronoun. Using masculine pronouns as the generic has been the standard for a little over 100 years now.

He/she, "he or she," and alternating he and she in the text are all awkward workarounds, and taint the text.

 

[sr71plt]

"They" is the traditional gender-neutral pronoun. Using masculine pronouns as the generic has been the standard for a little over 100 years now.

He/she, "he or she," and alternating he and she in the text are all awkward workarounds, and taint the text.

Yes, "they" is the traditional gender-neutral pronoun. But it also has traditionally been a plural only pronoun (in contrast to "you"). And, yes, "he" has been the generic standard for "one" for centuries--until the last half of the twentieth century when inclusive language started taking hold. Thus the whole problem. "He" is no longer the accepted standard singular pronoun for "one," but yet "they" doesn't sound right for the singular either--because, for centuries it was only used in proper English for the plural.

Thus the problem. There isn't always an elegant answer for a problem in English usage. This is one of those cases. In time, "they" will probably become less grating and win over.

 

[elfin_odalisque]

Yes, "they" is the traditional gender-neutral pronoun. But it also has traditionally been a plural only pronoun (in contrast to "you"). And, yes, "he" has been the generic standard for "one" for centuries--until the last half of the twentieth century when inclusive language started taking hold. Thus the whole problem. "He" is no longer the accepted standard singular pronoun for "one," but yet "they" doesn't sound right for the singular either--because, for centuries it was only used in proper English for the plural.

Thus the problem. There isn't always an elegant answer for a problem in English usage. This is one of those cases. In time, "they" will probably become less grating and win over.

It's even more confusing.

'You', like 'vous' in French, was both the second person plural and the polite second person singular. Through ignorance of style manuals, religious zealots wrongly thought that 'thou' was too polite for addressing 'God' and changed to 'you'.

Surely we can accept 'they' as a pronoun meaning 'he' and/or 'she'. Isn't there a plural there somewhere?

In 1750 the British Parliament passed a law saying that 'he' had two meanings - the male third person pronoun and a generic third person pronoun.

With the English language, unlike most others, we get confused between gender (grammar) and sex (biology).

In French, a problem is masculine and a solution is feminine - nobody blinks an eye.