There but for the grace of God go all of us.

[fuckmeat]

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Euthanasia.

smiles winningly

As many here know, my partner is entering her final days after a long battle with Leukaemia. I know this isn't BDSM related but I like and respect you guys and am interested in your opinions about euthanasia. As a nurse, I have seen people with end stage illness, when they have reached a point where they have lost their faculties and dignity, when only a near lethal level of morphine in their systems brings comfort or rest. There is a very fine line and doctors have to walk it alone, unsupported by senior colleagues or protocol. Even among each other, it is very rare that they will broach the subject. But should it have to come to that? People care passionately about their pets but many who would advocate putting down an ailing animal vehemently oppose euthanasia for adults who are capable of informed consent.

Informed consent

This means that the patient is considered to be of sound mind and fully able to comprehend the risks involved in the choices they make. Informed consent also implies that there is no coercion of any kind. For example: People should not be encouraged to opt for euthanasia because they feel like a burden to others. People with ongoing mental health issues are not considered to be of sound mind because irrational suicidal urges should play no part in this kind of debate.

So... to continue

If you were terminally ill, if all treatment options had been withdrawn and your care was palliative, if you knew you faced the indignity of gradual deterioration or a nervous wait for some infection to finish you off, what would you want? If euthanasia was an option, would you take it? What if it was a loved one who you had to watch suffer and die, would you have the strength to let them leave their life on their own terms?

I know that any legalisation of euthanasia could be open to abuse and I know we all live in different places with different laws and healthcare services. Do you think it could ever be possible though, for euthanasia to be legalised and enforced in a respectful and ethical manner?

If you oppose any kind of euthanasia, I'd be interested to know whether this stems from a religious belief or other moral rationale.

I believe that most of us would like the comfort of knowing that there was a viable way out of end stage illness, suffering and indignity. I may be proven wrong here, who knows? Euthanasia is very much one of our last taboos though and I don't know where else I could open such a debate and expect people to be utterly candid.

So there you go peeps. Have at it.

 

[MisterSir]

I'm not a religious man, I don't believe in a god or multiple gods, so for me there's no spiritual counter-argument to be made. If I'm terminally ill, I imagine my last days are going to be painful and torturous, and I'd rather not go out like that - nor, for that matter, would I force my friends and family to see me in that sort of state. Better to set my affairs in order, say my goodbyes and die in peace.

 

[Lizzie_Borden]

I'm not a religious man, I don't believe in a god or multiple gods, so for me there's no spiritual counter-argument to be made. If I'm terminally ill, I imagine my last days are going to be painful and torturous, and I'd rather not go out like that - nor, for that matter, would I force my friends and family to see me in that sort of state. Better to set my affairs in order, say my goodbyes and die in peace.

Pretty much this.

I'd also hope (though I'm not sure if it's doable) that some parts of me could be salvaged for donation before *everything* deteriorated beyond use through a drawn out death.

 

[Cattypuss]

I watched my dad die, slowly and painfully, in hospital last year. The words that kept going through my head were "I wouldn't put a dog through this". He was open about it in the end too - he said he was sick of the pain and sufferning and just wanted to die now.

The issue is indeed a can of worms but watching someone you love go through that certainly makes you see things quite clearly.

 

[wicked woman]

Interesting comment about pets versus people. I'd never made that connection before.

I've learned that it's too difficult for me to accurately determine how I would act if in the situation that you describe, so I'll refrain from speculating.

I do however know that when my Mom was terminally ill and receiving palliative care that she decided that she was ready to die and didn't want to prolong her life longer than need be. There was no discussion about it other than her telling us that she was ready and wanted to see her Mom (who had died many years before). After that she just stopped eating and bumped up the morphine as frequently as possible. Even at that, it took too long.

 

[eastern sun]

As a species, we have significantly lengthened our expected lifespan. We revive people who would otherwise have died. We are able to keep people alive who could not live without technological intervention. Our body armor is saving our soldiers from death, but their injuries cannot be "cured."

At the same time, we have poisoned our environment, and repeatedly expose ourselves to chemicals that are known to cause cancer in living tissue.

What do we want?

Life.

What have we created?

Pain.

I have a problem with euthanasia, because I think it's very important to be as lucid as possible at the time of death for spiritual reasons. Dying is rarely comfortable.

But neither is childbirth.

 

[Keroin]

L and I have discussed this subject extensively. We have both agreed that in the event one of us is near death and suffering, we will find a way to end it for each other. We believe in quality of life, not quantity.

I watched my mom's marathon death. That was enough to convince me that euthanasia is humane.

 

[where]

I'm a bit leary of euthanasia. To me euthanasia is something someone does to someone else. There are lots of value judgements around that and 'euthanasia' has long been used to deny disabled people a life for reasons varying from 'useless feeders' to 'they have no quality of life'.

I think what we are talking about here (and I could be wrong) is some form of assisted suicide. This is different. this is an individual making a descision to end their life themselves with the help of someone because they are unable to have the means themselves. Having seen a friend who had AIDS screaming to be killed because he couldn't take the pain, I believed then as I do now, that people's autonomy should extend to the moment of their final breath.

I therefore think that to refuse a person's autonomy is immoral and unethical and assistance should be given to end a life but ONLY IF IT IS ASKED FOR.

 

[Keroin]

I have a problem with euthanasia, because I think it's very important to be as lucid as possible at the time of death for spiritual reasons. Dying is rarely comfortable.

But neither is childbirth.

But what if you aren't spiritual...at all?

 

[eastern sun]

But what if you aren't spiritual...at all?

You might have a different perspective on it.

 

[FloggingMolly]

For me, yes, I'd want to be able to decide when it was time to go.

Could I let him go like that? I'd like to think so, but my heart tells me I'm not so sure that I could be selfless enough.

 

[WriterDom]

Nursing homes are filled with people who have almost no mental awareness or quality of life left. One of the worse places I visited was a dementia ward my uncle was on before he got moved to a nursing home. When one's life consists of sitting in a wheelchair with your mouth open, eyes cloudy and staring off in space the entire day it seems much more humane to me to just give the shot and send them on to the happy hunting ground. Nursing homes are usually six month death sentences. Not always though. My grandmother lived to 108 and was reading the newspaper in the hall at 107 before she died.

 

[Evil_Geoff]

Slippery slope subject... If we start offing the terminally ill, then the ones not capable of feeding or cleaning themselves, how long before we start with the infirm but functional? Then the severely injured and handicapped? The mentally/emotionally dysfunctional? The ugly? The fat? The blondes?

Who sets the bar for "quality of life"? And do you REALLY trust them to keep you and yours on the right side of it?

 

[where]

Nursing homes are filled with people who have almost no mental awareness or quality of life left. One of the worse places I visited was a dementia ward my uncle was on before he got moved to a nursing home. When one's life consists of sitting in a wheelchair with your mouth open, eyes cloudy and staring off in space the entire day it seems much more humane to me to just give the shot and send them on to the happy hunting ground. Nursing homes are usually six month death sentences. Not always though. My grandmother lived to 108 and was reading the newspaper in the hall at 107 before she died.

A lot of care homes for people with dementia can actually be really nice places and the people DO have a quality of life but the reason it isn't great is because of the structure around it.

Slippery slope subject... If we start offing the terminally ill, then the ones not capable of feeding or cleaning themselves, how long before we start with the infirm but functional? Then the severely injured and handicapped? The mentally/emotionally dysfunctional? The ugly? The fat? The blondes?

Who sets the bar for "quality of life"? And do you REALLY trust them to keep you and yours on the right side of it?

This is my worry and working with disabled people, that is the very real worry many of them have. This is why I can't support euthanasia but I would support someone who made a prior directive for assisted suicide.

 

[Netzach]

Warning: Can-O-Worms Alert!

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Read on at your own risk.




Euthanasia.

smiles winningly

As many here know, my partner is entering her final days after a long battle with Leukaemia. I know this isn't BDSM related but I like and respect you guys and am interested in your opinions about euthanasia. As a nurse, I have seen people with end stage illness, when they have reached a point where they have lost their faculties and dignity, when only a near lethal level of morphine in their systems brings comfort or rest. There is a very fine line and doctors have to walk it alone, unsupported by senior colleagues or protocol. Even among each other, it is very rare that they will broach the subject. But should it have to come to that? People care passionately about their pets but many who would advocate putting down an ailing animal vehemently oppose euthanasia for adults who are capable of informed consent.

Informed consent

This means that the patient is considered to be of sound mind and fully able to comprehend the risks involved in the choices they make. Informed consent also implies that there is no coercion of any kind. For example: People should not be encouraged to opt for euthanasia because they feel like a burden to others. People with ongoing mental health issues are not considered to be of sound mind because irrational suicidal urges should play no part in this kind of debate.

So... to continue

If you were terminally ill, if all treatment options had been withdrawn and your care was palliative, if you knew you faced the indignity of gradual deterioration or a nervous wait for some infection to finish you off, what would you want? If euthanasia was an option, would you take it? What if it was a loved one who you had to watch suffer and die, would you have the strength to let them leave their life on their own terms?

I know that any legalisation of euthanasia could be open to abuse and I know we all live in different places with different laws and healthcare services. Do you think it could ever be possible though, for euthanasia to be legalised and enforced in a respectful and ethical manner?

If you oppose any kind of euthanasia, I'd be interested to know whether this stems from a religious belief or other moral rationale.

I believe that most of us would like the comfort of knowing that there was a viable way out of end stage illness, suffering and indignity. I may be proven wrong here, who knows? Euthanasia is very much one of our last taboos though and I don't know where else I could open such a debate and expect people to be utterly candid.

So there you go peeps. Have at it.

I'm with Kybele, who articulated it perfectly.

In theory, I think it's right and fitting, and absolutely the province of the person whose life it is. Some of us want to go lucid no matter what, some of us would not want to face the pain - and I think it's ideal to have your own choices left to you.

but what about those who are worried not about the last weeks, but the bill their children are facing? Health care is so tied into cash that I question the ability of people to make these kinds of choices free of capitalist pressure. DNR forms are waved around like consent forms - and the average DNR is NOT detailed like an advance directive worksheet.

In reality, I am VERY concerned about how things play out. I am seriously worried about the fact that far too often these decisions are being made by parents and caregivers who win the public over because people think "I would not want to live like that" - in the case of people with disabilities rather than terminal illness. Even in the case of terminal illness - I really abhor the idea of "oh I know what she wants I was married to her, I'm her mother etc. etc."

If this could be scrutinized to the level it should be I think it's only right and fitting to *offer* the option. So long as there's nothing in writing from the person themself, witnessed by witnesses, even - I'm in favor of erring on the side of living - marginally. Advance directives are something everyone should be making.

I'm very leery of how this has the potential to slide from euthanasia to eugenics. However, I also think that a person's own decision should be sacrosanct - the prolonging of life past their wish is as bad a violation as killing.

As for myself, I cant be certain till I more or less get there. I've experienced levels of pain where I know that I'd like to die if consigned to that level of pain from this point onward, but I've found value in the time I've had pain controlled - I'd be very frustrated if someone took away that time to make peace with myself because I made them sad or uncomfortable, and having it taken out of my own hands would be the worst kind of violation.

No matter how loved you are, I believe, have the hunch, that dying is really yours alone, the walk you take alone out of the world - and the idea of others unduly influencing it terrifies the snot out of me, it's kind of my paranoia.

 

[ImOnIt]

Slippery slope subject... If we start offing the terminally ill, then the ones not capable of feeding or cleaning themselves, how long before we start with the infirm but functional? Then the severely injured and handicapped? The mentally/emotionally dysfunctional? The ugly? The fat? The blondes?

Who sets the bar for "quality of life"? And do you REALLY trust them to keep you and yours on the right side of it?

I hate slippery slope argument with a passion. Here is how much sense it makes:

You can't do X!!!! I dont like X!!! Oh dear god, what if I let you do X a little bit longer each and every day over a long period of time!!! What if you think its ok to tattoo your children at birth, in the womb, will it never end?? THINK OF THE CHILDREN

 

[Netzach]

I hate slippery slope argument with a passion. Here is how much sense it makes:

You can't do X!!!! I dont like X!!! Oh dear god, what if I let you do X a little bit longer each and every day over a long period of time!!! What if you think its ok to tattoo your children at birth, in the womb, will it never end?? THINK OF THE CHILDREN

Yeah, except we've seen this one illustrated beautifully.

 

[MisterSir]

Who sets the bar for "quality of life"? And do you REALLY trust them to keep you and yours on the right side of it?

YOU do. So if I decide I'd prefer to be dead than alive because my life is no longer worth living, I'd bloody well expect my wishes to be adhered to.

 

[where]

I'm with Kybele, who articulated it perfectly.

In theory, I think it's right and fitting, and absolutely the province of the person whose life it is. Some of us want to go lucid no matter what, some of us would not want to face the pain - and I think it's ideal to have your own choices left to you.

but what about those who are worried not about the last weeks, but the bill their children are facing? Health care is so tied into cash that I question the ability of people to make these kinds of choices free of capitalist pressure. DNR forms are waved around like consent forms - and the average DNR is NOT detailed like an advance directive worksheet.

In reality, I am VERY concerned about how things play out. I am seriously worried about the fact that far too often these decisions are being made by parents and caregivers who win the public over because people think "I would not want to live like that" - in the case of people with disabilities rather than terminal illness. Even in the case of terminal illness - I really abhor the idea of "oh I know what she wants I was married to her, I'm her mother etc. etc."

If this could be scrutinized to the level it should be I think it's only right and fitting to *offer* the option. So long as there's nothing in writing from the person themself, witnessed by witnesses, even - I'm in favor of erring on the side of living - marginally. Advance directives are something everyone should be making.

I'm very leery of how this has the potential to slide from euthanasia to eugenics. However, I also think that a person's own decision should be sacrosanct - the prolonging of life past their wish is as bad a violation as killing.

As for myself, I cant be certain till I more or less get there. I've experienced levels of pain where I know that I'd like to die if consigned to that level of pain from this point onward, but I've found value in the time I've had pain controlled - I'd be very frustrated if someone took away that time to make peace with myself because I made them sad or uncomfortable, and having it taken out of my own hands would be the worst kind of violation.

No matter how loved you are, I believe, have the hunch, that dying is really yours alone, the walk you take alone out of the world - and the idea of others unduly influencing it terrifies the snot out of me, it's kind of my paranoia.

I think that this is possibly more problematic in the US than in the UK because we tend not to have any hospital bills to pay at end of life care, but there is the idea of emotional labour of families that is taken into account and also there is a view by some health professionals that someone's life may not be worth living. A while back there were cases of medics slapping DNRs on elderly patients' charts and if you happen to already be disabled, then the view is, is that your life has little value or merit.

Also euthanasia already IS eugenics thanks to the Nazi Aktion T4 programme.

YOU do. So if I decide I'd prefer to be dead than alive because my life is no longer worth living, I'd bloody well expect my wishes to be adhered to.

I think the point was, was that when we get to discussing 'quality of life' the views given most credence and worth are those of the able-bodied and power holders (read doctors). 'Your' view is also actually coloured by this and you are kinda following the dominant discourse in medicine and society generally. And whilst it is fine to say that 'you' decide, there may come a point where, in the name of 'quality of life' that someone else decides for you, based on their version of what constitutes quality of life.

 

[00Syd]

If I'm dying in some awful, drawn out, painful, and embarrasing way then damn straight I'm going to want to be able to end it on my own terms. I've talked about this with my mother at some length, and she feels the same way, and I've agreed to grant her wishes as best I can. We've watched family members die painful and slow deaths, and that is absolutely not how I want to go out if I can help it. And I honestly feel that whether or not to off myself in the event of a painful terminal illness is my decision, and mine alone, and something that nobody else has the right to decide for me.

 

[Kojote]

As long as I can think and express the thoughts in a perceivable manner and have somebody to comunicate it to I want to live.
Even if it would be painful. Even it it would be indignified.
My will to live is strong and even in my worst times I never considered suicide.

But when the ability to communicate fades away or the mind is confused by to much painkillers...
Then I would opt for death.

I perfectly understand though, that some people don't want to go that far and would chose a peaceful death earlier. And I think they should be granted it.


Interestingly the german Bundesgerichtshof (federal court) changed jurisdiction about this recently. As for now it isn't illicit anymore to cut the total parenteral nutrition. The will of the patient is decisive now.

 

[Homburg]

There was a story of a man dying a slow death in the hospital, and asked his son to bring in a handgun so he could "show it to a friend in the ward." The son did so, and dad blew his own brains out with the gun later. Son is up on charges, and no idea what the final tally was as it was a fairly recent story out of the UK.

From what I recall, the young man is not trying to claim ignorance. It was his dad, so he did it. If my father were dying a horrid, painful, slow death and he asked for my help, I would. Damn the consequences, it is my father. But, were he not conscious to ask for that help, I would not bring a gun in and shoot him.

So I guess I fall into the camp that says assisted suicide is fine, but euthanasia is not.

My attitude towards suicide is probably material to the question though. I see suicide in general as a permanent solution to a temporary problem. Eeeevery once in a while, however, problems really are permanent. Dying from terminal stage 4 cancer is one of those.

My best friend's step dad did that recently. He had some unspecified pain in his abdomen that had gotten worse and worse. He went in to the doc and tests showed stage 4 pancreatic cancer. He was otherwise perfectly healthy. He was admitted to the hospital, but when he realised that it was terminal beyond a shadow of a doubt, he checked himself out. He went home and died a couple of days later.

I am not a spiritual man, and have no fear of eternal punishment in some dank hell. So, I do not fear death. Death is just cessation. Dying, however, is not an attractive thought, as it is all too often painful and messy. Still, if I have my druthers, it will not be in a hospital.

 

[Primalex]

I am not a spiritual man, and have no fear of eternal punishment in some dank hell.

And as spiritual man I would believe to get a job as warden. HE couldn't whip all the sinner himself, right?

 

[ecstaticsub]

My issue with assisted suicide is the assisted part. If a terminally ill person could end there life on their own then that is their business. Involved others, especially others who are not consenting is a different story.

My mother hates nursing homes with a passion. She asked me, a pharmacist, if I would assist her death if she were terminal or had severe dementia with incontinence and other stipulations. I said "Mom I love you, but no." As in the case Homburg mentioned if it was found out I had helped my mother in any way I could end up with charges against me or at the very least lose my license and my livelihood.

Another part of this I have run into at work. If a doctor decides to "assist", then other people become involved often without consent or knowledge--the nurse perhaps, and most definitely the pharmacist. Someone has to supply the larger doses of morphine or whatever the chosen drug will be. As health care professions we should not feel pressured to participate.

I do believe in palliative care. No one should have to die in pain.

 

[ImOnIt]

Yeah, except we've seen this one illustrated beautifully.

Are you talking about the holocaust? I can't accept reasoning like

You want A
A ++ is terrible
A is therefore terrible


The difference between A (making the choice to die not criminal) and A++ (doctors and nurses knocking off the week's sick every friday at 3pm) is quite a stretch.

I do understand that the effects of changing the taboo on suicide are huge. If we decide to include the 'right to die' in our moral code then ethically and philosophically that is a serious, complex shift which may well be open to abuse. However, if we don't add it to the declaration of human rights we might avoid all the problems with that (re: children, prisoners, duress, 5pm knock-offs at every hospital, population decline and fall of the nation etc)

Alternatively, it could be ignored/condoned/permitted. We all have the option to die. It's just usually a very undesirable outcome.

PS- People can do anything. Thats hard to wrap one's head around.