The Valerie Plame Affair (Highly political)

[Huckleman2000]

.... I had a government security clearance. ...

This does nothing to reassure me of the Bush administration's infallibility.

 

[R. Richard]

The references here to Chaney smack of the desperation of a disgruntled Kinck fan. OK, Chaney has always been the advocate of a strong defense. However, it was not the fault of Duck that he could not get a dominating center. [By the way, Chaney's title was Coach, not Vice President.] How Chaney could get involved in White House affairs when he was IIIRC Coach of the Knicks is beyond my comprehension. You, IMNTHO need to rethink your attack on Duck.

 

[Zeb_Carter]

And what law school did you go to? If you keep making posts like this one, the law school you went to (assuming you did) is likely to want it's diploma back.

The law school I went to was called the "real world", evidently something you know nothing about.

 

[Jenny_Jackson]

The references here to Chaney smack of the desperation of a disgruntled Kinck fan. OK, Chaney has always been the advocate of a strong defense. However, it was not the fault of Duck that he could not get a dominating center. [By the way, Chaney's title was Coach, not Vice President.] How Chaney could get involved in White House affairs when he was IIIRC Coach of the Knicks is beyond my comprehension. You, IMNTHO need to rethink your attack on Duck.

You are making the assumption that Chaney had/has no idea what goes on in his office. Rove was his lap dog. Did Rove know there was already an ongoing campagne to discredit Wilson? I can be sure he did since Rove was in on all the top level meetings at the time. Rove was one of those "in the know" so to speak.

And why would Rove circulate a memo from the office of the Vice President to the State Department mentioning Plames job with CIA?

Sorry. It just stretches my imagination too far to believe all these people were operating independantly (that ain't how the Bush White House works) and none of these things were connected. The coincidence that Rove claimed to the Fitzgerald committee just doesn't work here.

 

[R. Richard]

You are making the assumption that Chaney had/has no idea what goes on in his office. Rove was his lap dog. Did Rove know there was already an ongoing campagne to discredit Wilson? I can be sure he did since Rove was in on all the top level meetings at the time. Rove was one of those "in the know" so to speak.

And why would Rove circulate a memo from the office of the Vice President to the State Department mentioning Plames job with CIA?

Sorry. It just stretches my imagination too far to believe all these people were operating independantly (that ain't how the Bush White House works) and none of these things were connected. The coincidence that Rove claimed to the Fitzgerald committee just doesn't work here.

If you can show me a solid link betwen Don "The Duck" Chaney and Rove, I will listen. All I hear now is ranting.

 

[wazhazhe]

The law school I went to was called the "real world", evidently something you know nothing about.

In this "real world" you talk about, you have learned little if anything about the law.

I think I have had a fair amount of experience in the actual real world. I have studied (and taught) at different colleges and universities both at the undergrad and graduate level. While in school I owned and operated a small business in order to pay my school/living expenses. I spent most of my career, self employed, as a consultant in the corporate world before retiring in order to go to law school. At the present time I'm considering returning to teach at the college/university level.

To sum it up, I have experience in the academic world as both student and instructor. I also have experience as a business owner of a small retail store and a consultant doing business in the corporate world. And that was all before going to law school.

You are correct when you state you can say anything about anyone. However, even if you have no money and you defame me, I will obtain a judgment against you and seize what assets, if any, you own. Then I will obtain a lien against your future earnings. A portion of any income you receive for the rest of their life will go into my pocket until the judgment is paid.

Most law suits are not for millions of dollars against individuals or corporations with deep pockets. They are against average middle class people or small businesses and are for 100's or 1000's of dollars, not millions. If you actually had any "real world" experience, you would know this.

 

[Jenny_Jackson]

If you can show me a solid link betwen Don "The Duck" Chaney and Rove, I will listen. All I hear now is ranting.

Don? His name is Richard or Dick.

Rove was, up until a few months ago, Dick Chaney's personal assistant. They had offices next door to each other, talked a number of times daily. Their offices had an open connecting door. They shared the same secretary. If you called Dick Chaney's office you got Rove. Rove with Chaney's approval spoke pubicly on many occasions in Chaney's place. Connection enough?

You sound like you are trying to say, Rove was running his own government out of the Vice President's office. That doesn't even make sense.

And trying to tie Don Chaney to anything related to either the Valery Plume affair or the White House shows you have no idea what this thread is about.

 

[R. Richard]

Don? His name is Richard or Dick.

Rove was, up until a few months ago, Dick Chaney's personal assistant. They had offices next door to each other, talked a number of times daily. Their offices had an open connecting door. They shared the same secretary. If you called Dick Chaney's office you got Rove. Rove with Chaney's approval spoke pubicly on many occasions in Chaney's place. Connection enough?

You sound like you are trying to say, Rove was running his own government out of the Vice President's office. That doesn't even make sense.

And trying to tie Don Chaney to anything related to either the Valery Plume affair or the White House shows you have no idea what this thread is about.

By Rove, I presume you mean Karl Rove, an assistant to Richard "Dick" Cheney. I know who Karl Rove is, I also know who Dick cheney is. I never stated that Karl Rove was trying to run his own government.

"And trying to tie Don Chaney to anything related to either the Valery Plume affair or the White House shows you have no idea what this thread is about. "

You, not I, were the one who referenced "Chaney." The only prominent Chaney I know of is Don "The Duck" Chaney, the former Celtics star defender and also former Coach of the New York Knicks. I presumed you were referencing Duck. If you were not referencing Duck, what Chaney were you referencing? TIA.

 

[Jenny_Jackson]

By Rove, I presume you mean Karl Rove, an assistant to Richard "Dick" Cheney. I know who Karl Rove is, I also know who Dick cheney is. I never stated that Karl Rove was trying to run his own government.

"And trying to tie Don Chaney to anything related to either the Valery Plume affair or the White House shows you have no idea what this thread is about. "

You, not I, were the one who referenced "Chaney." The only prominent Chaney I know of is Don "The Duck" Chaney, the former Celtics star defender and also former Coach of the New York Knicks. I presumed you were referencing Duck. If you were not referencing Duck, what Chaney were you referencing? TIA.

If you go back and look, my reference to Chaney was directly related to and on the same page as the quoted article from the Nation. If you could not understand that then you really have a serious problem.

Since you have no intellegent response (as do none of the die hard Republicans who try and try without sucess to defend the criminals in the White House), I'm through with you. I suggest you take this to the GB where it belongs. It's typical when faced with facts you people try an derail the argument with something really stupid. Good Bye.

 

[Zeb_Carter]

In this "real world" you talk about, you have learned little if anything about the law.

I think I have had a fair amount of experience in the actual real world. I have studied (and taught) at different colleges and universities both at the undergrad and graduate level. While in school I owned and operated a small business in order to pay my school/living expenses. I spent most of my career, self employed, as a consultant in the corporate world before retiring in order to go to law school. At the present time I'm considering returning to teach at the college/university level.

To sum it up, I have experience in the academic world as both student and instructor. I also have experience as a business owner of a small retail store and a consultant doing business in the corporate world. And that was all before going to law school.

You are correct when you state you can say anything about anyone. However, even if you have no money and you defame me, I will obtain a judgment against you and seize what assets, if any, you own. Then I will obtain a lien against your future earnings. A portion of any income you receive for the rest of their life will go into my pocket until the judgment is paid.

Most law suits are not for millions of dollars against individuals or corporations with deep pockets. They are against average middle class people or small businesses and are for 100's or 1000's of dollars, not millions. If you actually had any "real world" experience, you would know this.

Well you know what "They" say? Those that do, do, those that can't do, teach.

Let's see my real world experience, 10 years as a law enforcement officer (so I have been lied to and am able to tell when I'm being lied too), 15 years as an life actuary programmer (having to read any new laws passed by the government and re-writting programs to conform to those laws), 20 years as a software engineer (this has been the easiest job so far, really don't have to think all that much to write simple business code), and I'm still going strong and learning about the real world.

 

[R. Richard]

If Joe Wilson's wife was actually a covert agent, the the columnist Novak would have been indicted. Yes, Novak does have first amendment rights. However, first amendment rights don't give one the right to yell "Fire!" in a crowded movie theater. Similarly first amendment rights don't give one the right to out a covert agent.

Per Investor's Business Daily, Fitzgerald knew that Armitage had outed Joe Wilson's wife BEFORE he interviewed Scooter Libby. Fitzgerald also had to know that it was common knowledge in Wasington circles that Joe Wilson's wife worked for the CIA. In fact, Joe Wilson answered a question on one of the Sunday news shows. He was asked, "Did you tell people in Washingtion that you wife worked for th CIA?" The answer was, "That's not important. I am not under investigation."

Of course, it is POSSIBLE that the Cheney and or Rove decided to use Armitage to out Joe Wilson's wife. After all, if you wanted to out a political enemy, wouldn't you try to use another political enemy to do the dirty work? [Armitage and Armitage's boss, Colin Powell, were strong opponents of the war in Iraq.]

Of course, "everybody knows" that Cheney and Rove are corrupt. It is a real pity that "everybody knows" is not allowed in a court of law.

 

[wazhazhe]

Well you know what "They" say? Those that do, do, those that can't do, teach.

Let's see my real world experience, ...

No matter what "they" say, you can't teach a subject if you don't know it thoroughly. I taught previously at a large university, was successful and see no reason I wouldn't be again. Besides, I'm retired; I really don't need to work any more. I spend my time doing what I want to do, not what I have to do.

You pontificate on civil law yet I don't see anything in your background to indicate any expertise. You were wrong in your previous post. You can't say or do anything you want, anywhere or anytime you want. The First Amendment is not absolute.

An actuary programmer? I'll bet you used some high level math for that one.

 

[Zeb_Carter]

No matter what "they" say, you can't teach a subject if you don't know it thoroughly. I taught previously at a large university, was successful and see no reason I wouldn't be again. Besides, I'm retired; I really don't need to work any more. I spend my time doing what I want to do, not what I have to do.

You pontificate on civil law yet I don't see anything in your background to indicate any expertise. You were wrong in your previous post. You can't say or do anything you want, anywhere or anytime you want. The First Amendment is not absolute.

An actuary programmer? I'll bet you used some high level math for that one.

But I can say anything I want. True, I can't yell fire in a theater but I can on a street corner. I can't just say "Wazhazhe is an asshole." as I don't know if you are or not. But I can say, "In my opinion Wazhazhe is an asshole." as I do have an absolute right to my opinion and to express that opinion in any manner I see fit.

A lot of math. High level, that depends on what you consider high level. But calculating mortality and morbidity rate along with turnover and future and net present values adjusted for mortality and then calculating the present value of the actual rate of return ain't so easy on a handheld calculator.

 

[yevkassem72]

Yet another example of why I find anarchy a tempting thought.

 

[Oblimo]

But I can say anything I want.

And be held liable if you commit a tort or crime by saying it.

True, I can't yell fire in a theater but I can on a street corner.

That depends on the street corner. However, I am fairly sure you can yell "Theater!" at a crowded bonfire and probably only get catcalled.

I can't just say "Wazhazhe is an asshole."

Yes you can. Calling someone an asshole is not slander. Calling someone a cheat or a liar is slander, however.

Remember, slander is not about hurting someone's feelings. It's about damaging their reputation in the community. Defamation statutes typically have a list of statements that are slanderous per se, where the defamed does not have to prove damages but the alleged defamer can affirmatively show that no damage was done.

But I can say, "In my opinion Wazhazhe is an asshole." as I do have an absolute right to my opinion and to express that opinion in any manner I see fit.

Saying "in my opinion" in front of a statement that's slander per se does not necessarily negate the slander, although it might where the statement is slander per quod. But calling someone an asshole isn't slander in the first place.

A lot of math. High level, that depends on what you consider high level. But calculating mortality and morbidity rate along with turnover and future and net present values adjusted for mortality and then calculating the present value of the actual rate of return ain't so easy on a handheld calculator.

The fact that you grock the maths behind statistics and the time value of money puts you way ahead of most of Americans, believe me.

 

[Oblimo]

Let's see my real world experience, 10 years as a law enforcement officer (so I have been lied to and am able to tell when I'm being lied too), 15 years as an life actuary programmer (having to read any new laws passed by the government and re-writting programs to conform to those laws), 20 years as a software engineer (this has been the easiest job so far, really don't have to think all that much to write simple business code), and I'm still going strong and learning about the real world.

Unless those 15 years as an actuarial programmer ran concurrently with your 20 years as a software engineer, my maths put you at around 60 years old, considering the time it takes to become an engineer and a LEO.

 

[Oblimo]

Well you know what "They" say? Those that do, do, those that can't do, teach.

Psst, Zeb: You need to have a rock-solid experience practicing law in order to become a law professor.

That's why you shouldn't always listen to "them."

 

[Couture]

Armitage was named as one of the DoD officials responsible for illegal transfers of weapons to Iran and the Contras.

And now Armitrage is made out to be a dove? He has been for the Iraq war since the beginning. He was not only a central character in Irangate, but now Plamegate as well. And if Bush didn't want this sort of dirty fellow working for him, then he shouldn't have APPOINTED him.

My guess is this guy was doing EXACTLY what Bush wanted. Either with his knowledge or with a nod and a wink.

Pardon me if I don't fall for the liberal conspiracy theory.

 

[Zeb_Carter]

Unless those 15 years as an actuarial programmer ran concurrently with your 20 years as a software engineer, my maths put you at around 60 years old, considering the time it takes to become an engineer and a LEO.

I am an old fart and have been around the block more than a few times, age indeterminate, but I would estimate somewhere in my late fifth decade, so you are close.

And it doesn't take as long as you think to become a software engineer. The 15 years as a actuarial programmer and 30 years as a software engineer were not concurrent.

 

[Zeb_Carter]

And be held liable if you commit a tort or crime by saying it.

That depends on the street corner. However, I am fairly sure you can yell "Theater!" at a crowded bonfire and probably only get catcalled.

Yes you can. Calling someone an asshole is not slander. Calling someone a cheat or a liar is slander, however.

Remember, slander is not about hurting someone's feelings. It's about damaging their reputation in the community. Defamation statutes typically have a list of statements that are slanderous per se, where the defamed does not have to prove damages but the alleged defamer can affirmatively show that no damage was done.


Saying "in my opinion" in front of a statement that's slander per se does not necessarily negate the slander, although it might where the statement is slander per quod. But calling someone an asshole isn't slander in the first place.



The fact that you grock the maths behind statistics and the time value of money puts you way ahead of most of Americans, believe me.

Won't argue any of these points except to say, sure they can get a judgement against me that I slandered them, big deal. So they have a judgement, now what, it's a civil matter - no jail time - just monitary awards, which I have none of. Ooops, just cost them a bundle and a half to get a worthless piece of paper.

 

[Zeb_Carter]

Psst, Zeb: You need to have a rock-solid experience practicing law in order to become a law professor.

That's why you shouldn't always listen to "them."

Huh uh, sure you do, just like you need to be a good doctor to become a professor at a teaching medical university.