The Truth Hurts

[JackLuis]

Human rights court:
CIA beat and sodomized wrongly detained German citizen

“The grand chamber of the European court of human rights unanimously found that Mr el-Masri was subjected to forced disappearance, unlawful detention, extraordinary rendition outside any judicial process, and inhuman and degrading treatment,” said James Goldston, executive director of the Open Society Justice Initiative.

What? Our valiant terror fighters guilty? How could they sink so low?

 

[sr71plt]

How could they sink so low?

I think to get an answer to that, you'll have to track down Dick Cheney.

 

[lovecraft68]

What? Our valiant terror fighters guilty? How could they sink so low?

Well when the head f the CIA is busy sexting and fooling around, the lunatics run the asylum.

Yet another punchline in the joke this Goverment has become.

 

[soflabbwlvr]

Well when the head f the CIA is busy sexting and fooling around, the lunatics run the asylum.

Yet another punchline in the joke this Goverment has become.

Actually, it is a very old joke. The incidents in question occurred in 2003. At that time, the director of the CIA was George Tenet, not David Petraeus. The protocols for extraordinary rendition of detainees were developed by Dick Cheney, and their legality was approved by Alberto Gonzalez.

 

[lovecraft68]

Actually, it is a very old joke. The incidents in question occurred in 2003. At that time, the director of the CIA was George Tenet, not David Petraeus. The protocols for extraordinary rendition of detainees were developed by Dick Cheney, and their legality was approved by Alberto Gonzalez.

And the lack of respect for and in the CIA is what led to the recent scandal. Lack of discipline does not start overnight.

I think Petraeus got caught because he was mad the Secret service was exposed for securing prostitutes and he wanted the world to know the CIA knows how to have fun too!

When your commander in chief commands zero respect it all trickles down hill.

Face it, we're geting to be the laughing stock of the world on so many levels its not funny.

Hell if Obama was president during the Cuban missile crisis he would apologize that Florida was so far away from their missiles.

 

[PennLady]

And the lack of respect for and in the CIA is what led to the recent scandal. Lack of discipline does not start overnight.

The Petraeus story is not even a scandal -- certain groups would just like it to be. From what I've read, there's no evidence any security was at risk. What we have here is a garden-variety story where a guy got caught having an affair. Only his position makes it at all noteworthy.

When your commander in chief commands zero respect it all trickles down hill.

Google "world approval Obama" and you will find, in fact, that his numbers are favorable, if lower than at previous points.

Face it, we're geting to be the laughing stock of the world on so many levels its not funny.

Other places roll their eyes b/c we make such a big deal out of things like Petraeus' affair -- which so far has had no impact, or little, beyond his resignation.

Hell if Obama was president during the Cuban missile crisis he would apologize that Florida was so far away from their missiles.

Right. Because it's not like he did anything about areas like Libya*. And remind me who was president when bin Laden was found and killed? You seem to want contradictory things from Obama. You want him to be out there being strong and firm and putting his foot down, but those are the things that made us lose the respect you mention earlier.

*Libya -- my brother, a WISO on B-1 bombers, was involved in the historic mission to Libya (Operation Odyssey Dawn) in the summer of 2011. Here's an article from the AF Times, and anther from Air Force Magazine. This was a major undertaking that involved the cooperation of a huge number of people, and not something a president would approve lightly.

 

[lovecraft68]

The Petraeus story is not even a scandal -- certain groups would just like it to be. From what I've read, there's no evidence any security was at risk. What we have here is a garden-variety story where a guy got caught having an affair. Only his position makes it at all noteworthy.



Google "world approval Obama" and you will find, in fact, that his numbers are favorable, if lower than at previous points.



Other places roll their eyes b/c we make such a big deal out of things like Petraeus' affair -- which so far has had no impact, or little, beyond his resignation.



Right. Because it's not like he did anything about areas like Libya*. And remind me who was president when bin Laden was found and killed? You seem to want contradictory things from Obama. You want him to be out there being strong and firm and putting his foot down, but those are the things that made us lose the respect you mention earlier.

*Libya -- my brother, a WISO on B-1 bombers, was involved in the historic mission to Libya (Operation Odyssey Dawn) in the summer of 2011. Here's an article from the AF Times, and anther from Air Force Magazine. This was a major undertaking that involved the cooperation of a huge number of people, and not something a president would approve lightly.

He gets no credit from me for Bin Laden. Bush could have had him and chose not to after all Dick(the guy really calling the shots) was making too much money on the war to bring him down back then.

As for the cia scandal? To me its not about a security breech, but the fact that in the position this guy was in he can't keep his freakin cock in his pants? What would he have leaked given the proper "incentive"? is the problem.

And I have more than made it clear I cannot stand our disgrace of a president.

But I will add that I think our becoming the court jester of the world can go back to Clinton getting a "Lewinski" and the entire world knowing about it. From there Bush just made us look dumber and we're at an all time low now.

Funny thing about Clinton though, is that there were people calling for his job over that, and this idiot gets protected by the media like he's done anything to deserve it. Hell Nixon was reviled for a drop in the bucket compared to what this ass is going to do to this country in the next 4 years.

anyway, I'm sure Obama won;t be worried about any of this as he and Michelle embark on yet another vacation that will cost us millions. I'm wondering if the Secret service has scouted out any whores yet for this one?

 

[soflabbwlvr]

He gets no credit from me for Bin Laden. Bush could have had him and chose not to after all Dick(the guy really calling the shots) was making too much money on the war to bring him down back then.

As for the cia scandal? To me its not about a security breech, but the fact that in the position this guy was in he can't keep his freakin cock in his pants? What would he have leaked given the proper "incentive"? is the problem.

And I have more than made it clear I cannot stand our disgrace of a president.

But I will add that I think our becoming the court jester of the world can go back to Clinton getting a "Lewinski" and the entire world knowing about it. From there Bush just made us look dumber and we're at an all time low now.

Funny thing about Clinton though, is that there were people calling for his job over that, and this idiot gets protected by the media like he's done anything to deserve it. Hell Nixon was reviled for a drop in the bucket compared to what this ass is going to do to this country in the next 4 years.

anyway, I'm sure Obama won;t be worried about any of this as he and Michelle embark on yet another vacation that will cost us millions. I'm wondering if the Secret service has scouted out any whores yet for this one?

The joke here is how you used a post about an incident that occurred in 2003 under an entirely different administration, and rather than comment on that, use it as a pretext to go off on a rant about the current administration.

 

[PennLady]

I'm not going to say much more b/c it's not worth it, but sometimes I just can't help myself.

He gets no credit from me for Bin Laden. Bush could have had him and chose not to after all Dick(the guy really calling the shots) was making too much money on the war to bring him down back then.

That's a bullshit explanation. "Could have had him" doesn't cut it. If it could have and didn't, and Obama could and did, then Obama gets the credit.

As for the cia scandal? To me its not about a security breech, but the fact that in the position this guy was in he can't keep his freakin cock in his pants? What would he have leaked given the proper "incentive"? is the problem.

Nothing leaked! The woman, Broadwell, wasn't a spy! She wasn't trying to get him to give up any information. She was the ultimate adoring fan and Petraeus gave in, or whatever you want to call it. This was not an issue of any kind of scandal. In fact it sounds like a rather dull and standard outline for a soap opera arc.

But I will add that I think our becoming the court jester of the world can go back to Clinton getting a "Lewinski" and the entire world knowing about it. From there Bush just made us look dumber and we're at an all time low now.

No, the joke to the world was how upset we got about it, specifically the GOPers who wanted to get rid of Clinton for any reason they could find. Jesus, in other countries it's practically expected that men will have mistresses, including/especially men in high places or positions of power. That's what you're missing -- it wasn't the affair that made people laugh, it was the "Won't someone think of the children!" ridiculous reaction.

We are not at an all time low in terms of world opinion, but you don't care for the facts. We are much better-regarded than we were during the Bush administration.

Funny thing about Clinton though, is that there were people calling for his job over that, and this idiot gets protected by the media like he's done anything to deserve it. Hell Nixon was reviled for a drop in the bucket compared to what this ass is going to do to this country in the next 4 years.

You can't be serious. You're just ranting against Obama for whatever reason. The only people calling for Clinton's job were the GOPers who wanted him gone. Since when does a bj in the White House add up to "high crimes and misdemeanors," the threshold for an impeachment? It doesn't. You could probably argue the perjury angle, which many did, but still.

And I'm sure if Obama did anything to warrant hounding in the media, he'd get it. And he does from plenty of places already.

And Nixon? Seriously?

 

[JackLuis]

I think to get an answer to that, you'll have to track down Dick Cheney.

Perhaps the ICC would like to "talk" to him?

Perhaps Wolfiwitz and Feith vould accompany him to the Hague?

LC, Obama isn't the reason this case was filed. AS PennLady said, it was Bush that poured our honor and treasure down the Haliburton rat hole.

 

[sr71plt]

This message is hidden because lovecraft68 is on your ignore list.

 

[sr71plt]

As I think has already been pointed out, all of this happened in the Bush administration under a different CIA director (and, as has been revealed already, under the instigation of Dick Cheney), so all of those connecting this to Obama (or Petraeus)--yes, that would be you, Lovey--are just dumber than rocks and need to find another topic to let their hatred spill out on Obama.

By the way, Obama is no peacenik. He ran on a platform to beef up in Afghanistan the first time he ran for president (and then did it), and he's used the sword as much as any other president ever has.

And another oh by the way, who is going to take on the chore of letting Lovecraft68 know that Petraeus is a conservative Republican, the projected presidential candidate of the "family-values" evangelical conservatives before he revealed his zipper was down--as so many of the "family-value" evangelical conservatives tend to get around to revealing?

 

[NekoParks]

Independent Contractors

As I think has already been pointed out, all of this happened in the Bush administration under a different CIA director (and, as has been revealed already, under the instigation of Dick Cheney), so all of those connecting this to Obama (or Petraeus)--yes, that would be you, Lovey--are just dumber than rocks and need to find another topic to let their hatred spill out on Obama.

By the way, Obama is no peacenik. He ran on a platform to beef up in Afghanistan the first time he ran for president (and then did it), and he's used the sword as much as any other president ever has.

And another oh by the way, who is going to take on the chore of letting Lovecraft68 know that Petraeus is a conservative Republican, the projected presidential candidate of the "family-values" evangelical conservatives before he revealed his zipper was down--as so many of the "family-value" evangelical conservatives tend to get around to revealing?

We don't take into count how independent contractors have inserted themselves into the chain of command. When we (the American Public) found out about the torture that occurred in Abu Ghraib prison, only the US service men and women were prosecuted. No independent contractors were or ever will be prosecuted. The Iraq and Afghanistan Wars have had more independent contractors fighting these wars than actual US service personnel. Supposedly these wars were "outsourced" and "privatized" to save the US taxpayers money. All independent audits have proved otherwise. Of course, SR71 knows more about any of this due to his work for the government. From your knowledge and vantage point, you must think that most of the American public is hopelessly ignorant and naïve. As someone who voted for Obama (twice) I have not been thrilled with his continuation of drone attacks in the Middle East. We are a warriot nation. It doesn't seem to matter if we elect Republican or Democratic presidents. If you want to see an enlightening documentary, I would suggest Why We Fight. It will really open up your eyes.

 

[PennLady]

And another oh by the way, who is going to take on the chore of letting Lovecraft68 know that Petraeus is a conservative Republican, the projected presidential candidate of the "family-values" evangelical conservatives before he revealed his zipper was down--as so many of the "family-value" evangelical conservatives tend to get around to revealing?

I would, but I don't think he's going to let facts get in the way of a rant.

 

[JackLuis]

All this blame casting doesn't get o the heart of the problem. The US has a treaty obligation to prosecute barbarism, so when is the bus headed to Langly to pick up the "accomplices"?

Are we a nation of LAW or are we a nation of weak, whining, scofflaws?

The US could gain a lot of lost prestige if we would round up the Neo-Cons and let them face the ICC. I don't expect that however, I expect that the Administration will blunder along so as not to cause 'controversy' in the Senate.

That's the evil that Diane Finestine said was the reason that she wouldn't want to impeach Bush for his lawlessness. She wrote me back when I suggested it.

 

[sr71plt]

If you really want your eyes opened to this Middle East wars and independent contractors business, read either Through Our Enemies' Eyes: Osama Bin Laden, Radical Islam, and the Future of America or Imperial Hubris: Why the West Is Losing the War on Terror--both originally published under the author name "Anonymous" (and both of which I helped write), which were put out as an end-run around the Bush administration that was trying to blame everyone but themselves for the sort of nonsense included in this thread.

Independent contractors (in many cases, read "mercenaries") were instituted for a bunch of reasons--(1) because the draft wasn't bringing in the bodies we needed to fight the wars, big and small, that the United States loves to conduct (yes, with every president ever under the sun back to Dwight Eisenhower--except maybe Jimmy Carter--being quite happy to use force, especially covert force). (2) to get around congressional caps on the number of official positions the action agencies could have. (3) to juggle where the money was coming from and where it was going. (4) to create a force the administration could tap because laws had been enacted to constrain what the CIA could do directly--and because the CIA was saying "no" because of the laws to activities the administrations wanted to do regardless of the law. And (5) to create a veneer of deniability ("No, no one in government is involved in torture of prisoners held without redress or in the assassination of that there leader we didn't like. Of course, not, not us.").

And, yes, the U.S. government probably has more independent contractors on the payroll than staff employees--but not just in the military/foreign affairs fields. And the independent contractor business in the military field goes back to the Nixon adminstration (Cambodia and Laos) and has its origins in the government being able to claim deniability for doing things its citizens don't think Americans would ever do because we're so pure and nice and are the models for the rest of the world on how to be pure and nice.

 

[sr71plt]

All this blame casting doesn't get o the heart of the problem. The US has a treaty obligation to prosecute barbarism, so when is the bus headed to Langly to pick up the "accomplices"?

Where's "Langly"? That bus is going to be driving around in circles for a very long time--looking for a missing "e."

 

[NekoParks]

If you really want your eyes opened to this Middle East wars and independent contractors business, read either Through Our Enemies' Eyes: Osama Bin Laden, Radical Islam, and the Future of America or Imperial Hubris: Why the West Is Losing the War on Terror--both originally published under the author name "Anonymous" (and both of which I helped write), which were put out as an end-run around the Bush administration that was trying to blame everyone but themselves for the sort of nonsense included in this thread.

Independent contractors (in many cases, read "mercenaries") were instituted for a bunch of reasons--(1) because the draft wasn't bringing in the bodies we needed to fight the wars, big and small, that the United States loves to conduct (yes, with every president ever under the sun back to Dwight Eisenhower--except maybe Jimmy Carter--being quite happy to use force, especially covert force). (2) to get around congressional caps on the number of official positions the action agencies could have. (3) to juggle where the money was coming from and where it was going. (4) to create a force the administration could tap because laws had been enacted to constrain what the CIA could do directly--and because the CIA was saying "no" because of the laws to activities the administrations wanted to do regardless of the law. And (5) to create a veneer of deniability ("No, no one in government is involved in torture of prisoners held without redress or in the assassination of that there leader we didn't like. Of course, not, not us.").

And, yes, the U.S. government probably has more independent contractors on the payroll than staff employees--but not just in the military/foreign affairs fields. And the independent contractor business in the military field goes back to the Nixon adminstration (Cambodia and Laos) and has its origins in the government being able to claim deniability for doing things its citizens don't think Americans would ever do because we're so pure and nice and are the models for the rest of the world on how to be pure and nice.

I read Imperial Hubris several years ago. I thought Michael Scheuer wrote it. Did you edit it or ghost write it? Wasn't he head of Alec Station (not sure if this is correct name) (CIA Bin Laden Unit)?

 

[sr71plt]

I read Imperial Hubris several years ago. I thought Michael Scheuer wrote it. Did you edit it or ghost write it? Wasn't he head of Alec Station (not sure if this is correct name) (CIA Bin Laden Unit)?

Yes, Scheuer did the ultimate writing of both. It was pretty much put together by committee, though, with him doing the writing. And, yes, I did editing on one of the two as well once it got to the publisher. Yes, he headed a relevant Agency unit.

 

[NekoParks]

Thank you

Yes, Scheuer did the ultimate writing of both. It was pretty much put together by committee, though, with him doing the writing. And, yes, I did editing on one of the two as well once it got to the publisher. Yes, he headed a relevant Agency unit.

I will have to read the other book. Do you have any other books to suggest?

 

[sr71plt]

I will have to read the other book. Do you have any other books to suggest?

Nothing recent. I pulled completely out of that before the current administration came in. I've edited some books on the topic since then but none with the insider, whistle blower, credentials of the two I mentioned. Through Our Enemies eyes is out in two editions and is much more for the specialist than Imperial Hubris was, which was slammed out there for voters to read right before Bush's second election to counter some of the scapegoating his administration was doing. The second edition of Through is more expansive, including material that didn't get cleared in time for the first edition.

 

[Handley_Page]

But none of this matters to the poor devil who was shown not to be whom the CIA thought. In keeping with this sort of state-sponsored 'criminality', you might know that he has not been compensated for his indignities nor did anyone get fired over it. On the contrary, (according to the Wiki entry), she (Frances) got promoted and her cohort (Elizabeth) got slapped on the wrist.

Personally, I have no real problem with some form of violence where the person is shown to be the guilty party, but three bloody years in the chokey is simply taking the pith!.
And as for leaving him broke, dishevelled and alone on a remote Albanian road, that's disgusting.

 

[Exquisition]

Face it, we're geting to be the laughing stock of the world on so many levels its not funny.

I'd beg to differ.

You were the laughing stock of the world when that incompetent buffoon and serial bankrupt Bush got voted in on a probable dodgy pass (florida).

Obama is far more respected.

 

[PennLady]

I'd beg to differ.

You were the laughing stock of the world when that incompetent buffoon and serial bankrupt Bush got voted in on a probable dodgy pass (florida).

Obama is far more respected.

I tried to tell him that...

 

[Cruel2BKind]

I tried to tell him that...

And props for doing it in a civil way.

I just wanted to smash his whiny republican face with a hammer.