The Trans Women Athlete Dispute

[stickygirl]

I can spot a cunt when I see (or read) one. And I can see my Dom call was right. ~snip~

there's bullshit here than a Republican convention. I don't even know where to begin
It's so funny that you've gone to such lengths and spent so much time when you effort means squat IRL.

So much more could be written....

You go for it honey - this is probably good therapy for you

Edit

No more editing. I expect a lot of smoke and mirrors if this is quoted, but nothing concrete to determine why a transwoman should be allowed to compete with natural women. "Because I say so," is not a defense.

Drops ice cream in amazement!! Finally you've got back to the thread and reached the same conclusion as the documentary cited. Fives.

 

[TastySuckToy]

Drops ice cream in amazement!! Finally you've got back to the thread and reached the same conclusion as the documentary cited. Fives.

Ya totally, what could asking/discussing how to reliably determine trans identity possibly have to do with trans athletes?!

 

[TastySuckToy]

I'm pretty sure I've seen more than a few examples of transphobic individuals pretending to be trans because they think it proves a point, in order to manipulate others or they're just trolling people.

So to protect genuine trans people, we should have a reliable means to determining if someone is actually trans.

So to anyone who actually and genuinely believes in protecting trans identities, explain how we determine if someone is actually trans, so we can protect the trans community from that kind of abuse and problem.

 

[coati]

The thing is, you lot can and do take your "issue" into mainstream society, insisting that LGBT is taught in schools and that transwomen should compete as women in sports and so on, (which is what this thread is actually about after all) and so you must expect some push back from it...or do you think people should just put up and shut up?

Neither I nor the OP insisted on anything about transwomen in sports.

You and few others were the ones doing the insisting that they should not be allowed to compete in women's sports. The disrespectful generalizing of transsexuals as being mentally ill or of simply pulling a ploy to undermine women's sports was coming from those who, contrary to the content of the program referenced in the opening post, insisted that all the issues related to transwomen in sports had already been decided in accordance with their forgone conclusions about the subject.

Throughout this thread, I kept thinking about how Sticky and other trans people felt about being called mentally ill or capricious in making their life decisions in this social climate of ignorance, fear, and bullying.

You sound as if you are fearful of issues you don't fully understand. That does not give you license to violate this particular forum's guidelines regarding respect of trans people. If you want to do that, apparently it is acceptable behavior on the General Board, and there are other people over there who buy into your paranoid belief that trans and gay people are out to victimize you and what you term as mainstream society.

 

[TastySuckToy]

Throughout this thread, I kept thinking about how Sticky and other trans people felt about being called mentally ill or capricious in making their life decisions in this social climate of ignorance, fear, and bullying.

Facts don't care about feelings. That's reality.

Instead of complaining about feelings, how about you do the trans community a solid and demonstrate that a trans identity is not a mental disorder and not dependent on simply one believing they are.

Do you not grasp how useful and helpful it would be to the trans community if you can demonstrate 'belief isn't a requirement'?

 

[TastySuckToy]

Fear, and all of its synonyms, are desperate words.

I'd chalk it up to psychological projection, because the actual fear is fearing the determination that trans is nothing but a mental disorder. And then knee jerk reactions as if the diagnosis of mental disorder/illness must be an 'attack' or form of intolerance rearing its head.

If it can be proven to not be the case that trans is a mental disorder/illness, I think that's great. More knowledge about ourselves and humanity is a good thing. Hence why important questions like how to reliably determine a trans identity need to be answered.

But so far all you get from the other side is insults, name calling, appeals to personal beliefs, appeal to motivation fallacies, etc.

 

[stickygirl]

I'd chalk it up to psychological projection, because the actual fear is fearing the determination that trans is nothing but a mental disorder. And then knee jerk reactions as if the diagnosis of mental disorder/illness must be an 'attack' or form of intolerance rearing its head.

If it can be proven to not be the case that trans is a mental disorder/illness, I think that's great. More knowledge about ourselves and humanity is a good thing. Hence why important questions like how to reliably determine a trans identity need to be answered.

But so far all you get from the other side is insults, name calling, appeals to personal beliefs, appeal to motivation fallacies, etc.

This poster, amongst others, has already addressed your question about mental disorder

Might want to take a look at the DSM-V and ask the world health organization. They would both disagree with you. It's been classified as a physical "ailment" and has to have medical treatment, not mental treatment.

If you can't be bothered to read up on a topic that clearly you feel passionate over and won't take anyone else's word for it, then quit posting. Simply saying the same thing over and over, without responding to the citations and continuing to display your obstinate avoidance of facts is getting really boring.

There is a clinical procedure set out to diagnose gender dysphoria ( the underlying symptom of being transgender ). This is like saying 'we have looked at your symptoms, made observations, provided second opinions from qualified practitioners and conclude that you display the characteristics of being on the autistic spectrum' so you are ASD.

A comparison to Autism is quite helpful, because the diagnostic process does not use microscopes and blood tests, but interviews and observations. Likewise Autism still carries a good deal of stigma in society and often accommodations have to be made to help them fit into a society that is geared towards neurotypicality NT. It is a spectrum too, like gender dysphoria. Both groups have and continue to suffer from quack remedies that seek to 'cure' them.

There really is no point in you making claims about "beliefs' or 'diagnoses' if you haven't bothered to do some research. I won't bother responding to these topics with you while you continue to hide from evidence that a few search terms can reveal on Google.

But to come back to the original OP thread, the question is how to include transgender athletes? If you'd had chance to see the video or read the accompanying discussion, you'll see that there isn't an answer to that yet. Either you or your transphobic chum, mentioned something about 'financial gain' by 'men claiming to be women' robbing cis-gender athlete's of sponsorship. That is precisely what the thread is about - how to create a level playing field ( no pun intended ) for all athletes to partake and compete in sports. The IOC has guidelines that are still up for discussion: here's an article citing criticism of the current policy; here's a response by the IOC committing itself to conducting more research; here's a bit more discussion focussing on two successful transgender athletes.

So everything is still up for discussion, but it's great that the subject is being taken seriously. Sport is an integral part of our lives and no one should be barred on the basis of unfair and unscientific rules. Keeping fit, enjoying the benefits of competition and feeling included, is something everyone should have: in the words of the IOC "The practice of sport is a human right". Making inaccurate claims and judgements as you are doing has no place in sport or society.

 

[TastySuckToy]

Frankly, any issue about trans in sports can be solved instantly by just creating a third group. Then we can have men, women and trans competitions.

Problem solved, and society bent over backwards to accommodate a portion of the population that represents fractions of a percent of the total.

 

[stickygirl]

Historically, many medical systems, including those supported by the WHO, have categorized being transgender as a mental health condition. But an evolving scientific understanding of gender and tireless advocacy by transgender activists around the world were crucial in bringing about this development.


The above is from THIS ARTICLE. The bold words are linked to other websites in the article to back up their claims. TIRELESS ADVOCACY and TRANSGENDER ACTIVISTS have links, but not EVOLVED SCIENTIFIC UNDERSTANDING.

Advocacy and Activists.

Below is a paragraph from the SAME ARTICLE

Countries such as Argentina, Malta, Nepal, and Norway have made progress in recent years in improving legal recognition of transgender people and not requiring diagnoses. However, many governments around the world continue to deem transgender people “mentally ill,” and Japan, Spain, and Turkey, among others, still require a mental health diagnosis to legally change one’s name or legal gender marker.

I have no problem in the "live and let live" philosophy, but I won't pretend there is something not wrong with a person who wants to change reality by claiming to be the opposite of their natural sex (and don't pretend you don't know what I mean by "natural sex"). You are not a man or woman simply because that's what you decided you are that day. There is your birth sex, and your preferred sex (for some) but what you prefer is not always what you are.

Yup, I've seen that article and thank you for the CAPS and bolds Yes, our advocacy is tireless - good stuff huh? It's not like the folks at Stonewall gave up when people said gays were mentally ill and going to bring down society. Props to our advocates- they're brilliant.

It was tireless advocates who got women the vote or people like Rosa Parks , the civil rights activist in the 1930s - she was pretty tireless too. Martin Luther King...

The way you've highlighted activism shows you disapprove and you probably think being an activist is evil - like those those advocates and activists examples I've cited? Am I right? I suspect you disapprove of change of any sort. Well, change is going to happen, whether you like it or not. You can fight it, get angry about - hell you could even become an activist yourself, but the chances are the weight of decency, fairness, equality, is going win out in the end.

 

[KimGordon67]

Yup, I've seen that article and thank you for the CAPS and bolds Yes, our advocacy is tireless - good stuff huh? It's not like the folks at Stonewall gave up when people said gays were mentally ill and going to bring down society. Props to our advocates- they're brilliant.

It was tireless advocates who got women the vote or people like Rosa Parks , the civil rights activist in the 1930s - she was pretty tireless too. Martin Luther King...

The way you've highlighted activism shows you disapprove and you probably think being an activist is evil - like those those advocates and activists examples I've cited? Am I right? I suspect you disapprove of change of any sort. Well, change is going to happen, whether you like it or not. You can fight it, get angry about - hell you could even become an activist yourself, but the chances are the weight of decency, fairness, equality, is going win out in the end.

He also missed the bit where it says advocacy AND scientific understanding.

Amazing though it may seem for some people, science doesn't happen in a cultural vacuum. It is motivated by all sorts of things - sometimes money, but sometimes a drive to address something that is a problem. Sometimes that problem is identified because of activism.

 

[KimGordon67]

You're obviously choosing to see why I've bold-faced some lines in the worst possible light, twisting it as much as you can for the sake of your ire.

There are too many trans people and people of the Alphabet Community who suffer from mental illness (body dysphoria, depression, suicidal thoughts, READ HERE and do you own research as well) to expedite the global acceptance of warping reality to fit fantastical desires. You are telling people who need help that they don't.

The only problem I have with this man-to-woman cause and vice versa, is the expectancy that people are to believe that a man is a woman if they feel like a woman, and a woman is a man if they feel like a man. Accept reality for what it is: and live however you like, but don't tell the world to indulge the delusions of people who are not happy with who they are.

And for the sake of the topic, this goes for that as well. You clearly see that I believe a man at birth should not be allowed in the athletic events designated for woman who were born woman at birth. The trans athletes out there right now are not even the best of the best when it comes to male athletes. Imagine what would happen if one of them were?

Actual research tends to demonstrate that the majority of these negative outcomes are a result of either social attitudes, and some the result of not being able to live as the person you are. I'm not going to bother citing evidence, because I know you won't read it.
(Telling SG to 'do her own research' is pretty laughable - she's clearly way more informed about this area than you or I are.)

 

[KimGordon67]

Oh, Kim, it appears you didn't read me in full.



To further explain, in the article I quoted, the words TIRELESS ADVOCACY and TRANSGENDER ACTIVISTS had links to other articles backing up those claims, while the words EVOLVED SCIENTIFIC UNDERSTANDING did not. Do you understand now? You pretend to be a smart woman, so I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt.

So you're suggesting that this means the scientific understanding doesn't exist?

 

[KimGordon67]

You won't bother citing evidence because it will be an opinion piece easily refuted when the numbers of "normal" people who were bullied suicide rates to trans people are compared side by side.



These snide, after comments are laughable.

No, I seriously won't bother citing evidence because I've done that countless times in these arguments - it's quite a long process pulling together a range of good peer-reviewed research to support an argument (especially given most of it is behind paywalls), and inevitably whenever I've gone through that process (as, in fact SG obviously did a few posts back), it doesn't get read. Did you read ANY of things SG linked to? Like, actually read them?

We get the point - you think being trans is a mental illness. Once upon a time, this was the received wisdom, but StickyGirl, Bramble, myself, and others are aware that, for various reasons, this isn't really considered to be the case any more (although the thinking has hung on in some sectors). We're clearly fairly familiar with the field. You may or may not be, but even among actual experts, there's often dissension around this sort of thing.
As StickyGirl pointed out, the situation regarding sport is currently evolving, and there's some interesting arguments being made. Your belief about what 'should' happen regarding trans athletes probably won't make a whole heap of difference to the outcome. It's a tricky area (for reasons made clear by Bramble pages and pages ago) - I'm interested to see what the outcome is.

 

[stickygirl]

You're obviously choosing to see why I've bold-faced some lines in the worst possible light, twisting it as much as you can for the sake of your ire.

Not ire. If I had ire you'd know - I swear like a sailor tired maybe...

There are too many trans people and people of the Alphabet Community who suffer from mental illness (body dysphoria, depression, suicidal thoughts, READ HERE and do you own research as well) to expedite the global acceptance of warping reality to fit fantastical desires. You are telling people who need help that they don't.

The problem is you're citing articles that say transgender people suffer mental illness, not that being transgender is a mental illness, which as I've cited is not accepted by WHO or DSM-V. You put the cart before the horse here: some of the mental problems stem from being treated like pariahs, so depression is one of those results categorised as a mental illness. I agree with the article - there are a number of co-morbid symptoms that go with being transgender, but telling someone their self-perception is due to their mental illness is neither accurate nor helpful.

The only problem I have with this man-to-woman cause and vice versa

but if that were the only problem you have: you've demonstrated it isn't.

is the expectancy that people are to believe that a man is a woman if they feel like a woman, and a woman is a man if they feel like a man.

Here you go again - you're being flippant. Being accepted for any kind of medical treatment is a long-winded process and rightly so, hormones are not handed out by medical professionals on a whim. The idea that someone can whimsically decide to be a woman one morning is not taken seriously by doctors.

Accept reality for what it is: and live however you like, but don't tell the world to indulge the delusions of people who are not happy with who they are.

Please don't use derogatory words "delusional" when it's inappropriate and rude. Reality isn't black and white - reality is complicated and no matter how hard you wish it, with 6 billion people on the planet, there is going to be diversities that don't fit the norm: statistically it doesn't stack up and hey - the reality confirms it. I see this in the world of Physics all the time: Nature constantly seeks to diversify, if it didn't, we'd still be a planet covered in algae and nothing else.

And for the sake of the topic, this goes for that as well. You clearly see that I believe a man at birth should not be allowed in the athletic events designated for woman who were born woman at birth. The trans athletes out there right now are not even the best of the best when it comes to male athletes. Imagine what would happen if one of them were?

We have an English expression 'It's the taking part that counts, not the winning'. It's a phrase echoed by the founder of the Olympics, Baron Pierre de Coubertin, who said "The most important thing in the Olympic Games is not winning but taking part; the essential thing in life is not conquering but fighting well."

You know being transgender isn't a new thing - it's been around, and recorded, since before the pyramids were built. In the past, people weren't so judgemental as they are today - there were bigger issues, and there still are.
Albert Cashier who fought in the US civil war
US Navy Seal Kristin Beck
Roberta Cowell who flew Spitfire's during WW2

All of these people and there are many many more, made valuable and significant contributions in war and peace. I doubt any of them rolled over in bed one morning and had a lightbulb moment of hey - I'll be the other gender.

 

[coati]

If it's only wordplay, then fine, but if it is believed, as the many in Alphabet Community believe, it is delusional.

The "Alphabet Community" swipe ^^^ further indicates that this guy has an angry male agenda extending beyond the trivialization of trans people. He has come to the GLBT Chatter forum to impress his fellow bullies with his package of talking points and insults.

Another legend in his own mind. It looks like this forum is also being invaded by the trolls.

 

[stickygirl]

Dear Kola

I think we're about done with this and we can agree to disagree. Have a nice day

 

[coati]

The only troll in here is you, and your persistence in calling anyone who doesn't agree with you a troll. You've taken on the role of the bullied for no reason other than because you want to.

Despite your self-image as the smartest man in the world, you nor any other anonymous poster are the final word on genetics, epigenetics, and biological variability. You may think that this issue can be categorized into a neat little binary format, but that does not make it so.

This was essentially a thread informing us about another aspect of ongoing basic science research into biological variability. You and several others hijacked this discussion to advance your belief that there are real men and real women, and that deviation from these categories is a capricious decision made by mentally ill or delusional people.

That's a tidy and simplistic theory from anonymous posters, but the opening post of this thread involves publicly identified researchers who are considering the notion that things may not be that tidy and simple.

 

[acerbedingfield]

Actual research tends to demonstrate that the majority of these negative outcomes are a result of either social attitudes, and some the result of not being able to live as the person you are. I'm not going to bother citing evidence, because I know you won't read it.
(Telling SG to 'do her own research' is pretty laughable - she's clearly way more informed about this area than you or I are.)

Interesting that your rebuttal to the persons post, and to the person themselves is to come out and say that resistance to something like transgender athletes being allowed to participate as any gender they want is a result of that

persons "latent homosexuality". That is expressed in your "result of not being able to live as the person you are" poke at the writer.

SO sad you cannot see the stupidity of something. There is no actual reason to allow it. The males who wanna be girls who participate in female sports, have far more physical ability then the women do. muscle mass and strength levels.

Its like expecting a 14 year old Chinese female gymnast to be able to enter the mens Olympic weight lifting event and squat 1100 pounds... wont happen.

Just brings back to mind the soviet unions use of males in female Olympic events of the cold war. "judge this fine female soviet athlete has a 3 day beard growth, testicles"

 

[KimGordon67]

Interesting that your rebuttal to the persons post, and to the person themselves is to come out and say that resistance to something like transgender athletes being allowed to participate as any gender they want is a result of that

persons "latent homosexuality". That is expressed in your "result of not being able to live as the person you are" poke at the writer.

*edit*

Um ... what?

 

[Bramblethorn]

Interesting that your rebuttal to the persons post, and to the person themselves is to come out and say that resistance to something like transgender athletes being allowed to participate as any gender they want is a result of that

persons "latent homosexuality". That is expressed in your "result of not being able to live as the person you are" poke at the writer.

...uh, no. Kim didn't say a thing about latent homosexuality. You might want to reread that.

SO sad you cannot see the stupidity of something. There is no actual reason to allow it. The males who wanna be girls who participate in female sports, have far more physical ability then the women do. muscle mass and strength levels.

If you read this discussion from the start, you'll see that we already talked about this stuff. As most any trans woman could tell you, HRT and/or orchidectomy make a huge difference to muscle mass and strength levels.

Just brings back to mind the soviet unions use of males in female Olympic events of the cold war. "judge this fine female soviet athlete has a 3 day beard growth, testicles"

Do you have sources for this claim? I know of two USSR athletes back in the 1960s (the Press sisters) who competed as female and were speculated to have been male, but I'm not aware of any USSR athletes who were ever actually confirmed to have cheated that way.

A possible cause of confusion here is that the Soviet bloc definitely did cheat extensively via use of steroids, which led to some female athletes developing masculine traits. But that's not the issue we were discussing here - if anything, it highlights the difference that hormone therapy makes to athletic performance. And that wasn't something the athletes chose; it was forced on them by an authoritarian government looking for propaganda victories.